Help: Yellowing Edges. (Zinc or Manganese Deficiency)

[PadawanWarrior]

You can't fix those plants, we can't make those yellow edges turn green, even if you made soil perfect. You can flower finish them well, but that stuff won't fix. If you can afford it, mix up 2 batches of soil with varying degrees of inputs you feel might work and send in samples for testing...get assay back, check deficiency and adjust. I know it's frustrating long path, i went thru it without the testing so it was double frustrating. Eventually you land on a no maintenance mix.

I know those brite yellow edges aren't going to bet better. I've been foliar spraying to try and see if I can see an improvement on the newer growth to try and figure out what deficiency caused that. I'm not too worried about the soil. I should be able to get it better. This soil was my old soil that I've been using for 5 years with extra peat added. It also sat for about a year dry. I have a bunch of 15 gal pots that are 5 years old and still doing good. I've been doing the no till thing on those.

This little 5 gal pot plant is more for fun and knowledge. It's also a reveg. I've always thought about doing soil tests but since I have a bunch of pots with different soil it would be kinda a bitch to take that many samples. I've just been trying to go by eye since I started.

"Just watered with plain water and the runoff ppm with my cheap meter was around 1850"
Huge clue, the media has/had a ridiculous EC, it was a high salinity soil that whole time, salts, restricted uptake...hmmm...you're not cooking the plants as much as you're scorching the soil. PH can be fine and in range but EC or pwEC can be through the roof. It wasn't a single nute locking out, it was the soil being too far out of zone for good plant growth...i still think ur short on micros cuz even in a high pwEC media if everything the plant needs is there it shows a diff stress.

I know the EC was pretty high. I'm sure a lot of that was from all the potassium sulfate I was adding trying to deal with those yellow edges. I agree about the micronutrients. I have a feeling a lot of people have low micronutrients. Especially with used soil.

I'm intrigued by the 6.3 reading, when the water is 7.9
I don't feel the meter can ignore the water, as it is in fact suited to hydro applications. So the water level present at the time of testing, effects the read. I would want to see reading at a few moisture levels, to plot what's really going on. As mathematically, 6.3 is between 7.9 and something much lower.

Ya I tested the pH after watering with the 7.9 and that's when I got the 6.3 reading. I did it after it sat for a day and I got a 5.7 reading. I've tested my 15 gal pots right after watering and when drier and didn't notice much difference like this 5 gal with newer mixed soil. Anytime I've tested the 15 gal pots the reading always comes out around 6.3.

They're losing nitrogen now as well but still drinking. What N and Ca inputs do you have?'

Ya, after flushing the available nutrient level dropped. I top dress and my water also has some Ca in it.

 

[Jutachi]

I think you should get a soil test or leaf analysis and see whats going on. Organic soil, its hard to fix problems right away as ammendments take time to break down and become available. What looks like is happening is an imbalance in the Calciums levels to other nutes. Too much calcium can lockout other nutes and vice versa. You should try and make sure your soil has a nice balanced level of nutes. Its not jus about being deficient in one nute and trying to find it.. The best fix is to make sure your soil is well balanced. its a lot easier than trying to guess what nute youre deficient in, when it can be other things causing uptake issues etc.

I dont think you're deficient in nutes, but rather theyre not uptaking the specific nutes in the soil BECAUSE of an imbalance, and makes it look like a nute deficiency. Adding more of what you think you're deficient in wont fix it, correcting the balance will. Make sure your environment is on point, and get a balanced soil in there and watch those girls take off. Trying to chase down and correct one deficiency usually leads to more problems as youre just guessing.

 

[PadawanWarrior]

I think you should get a soil test or leaf analysis and see whats going on. Organic soil, its hard to fix problems right away as ammendments take time to break down and become available. What looks like is happening is an imbalance in the Calciums levels to other nutes. Too much calcium can lockout other nutes and vice versa. You should try and make sure your soil has a nice balanced level of nutes. Its not jus about being deficient in one nute and trying to find it.. The best fix is to make sure your soil is well balanced. its a lot easier than trying to guess what nute youre deficient in, when it can be other things causing uptake issues etc.

I dont think you're deficient in nutes, but rather theyre not uptaking the specific nutes in the soil BECAUSE of an imbalance, and makes it look like a nute deficiency. Adding more of what you think you're deficient in wont fix it, correcting the balance will. Make sure your environment is on point, and get a balanced soil in there and watch those girls take off. Trying to chase down and correct one deficiency usually leads to more problems as youre just guessing.

I know there's an imbalance. I was just trying to figure out what deficiency that yellowing was. My first thought was K deficiency. I had low ph so I added a bunch of K based pH up which locked out Ca for sure and looked like maybe a little Mg. I added gypsum and Epsom and it was looking better. Then the yellowing started so I assumed it was the Ca and Mg I added locking out the K. That's why I was adding a bunch of potassium sulfate in the water. Someone mentioned zinc deficiency and I thought that might be possible since I added some TM-7 which has iron and iron can lockout Zn.

Ca, Mg, Zn, and K are all cations so if there's too much K you can add gypsum or Epsom to replace some of the K ions with Ca or Mg. That's how it got fixed after adding too much K from the pH up. Ca is harder to displace than K but it should still work a bit. I just started to learn about how CEC works so I don't have it all figured out yet. And I'm not sure which deficiency that is. If I knew for sure I should be able to fix it with sulfates. I just need to know which sulfate to add.

It's already happier today but I still would like to figure out what deficiency that is so I can deal with it in the future if it ever happens again. I've looked at online pictures but they can't all be trusted. A bunch of sites use the same pic for different deficiencies (GrowWeedEasy is one). They have a similar pic and they say it's Ca deficiency and then there's another of the same pic that they say is K deficiency. I've also seen the same looking yellowing that another site says is Zinc. So it's confusing. I've got stuff for foliar spraying Mg, K, Zn so far. And just ordered some calcium nitrate and calcium chloride so I can test foliar spray with Ca soon too. I was going to use gypsum but heard that's not good for foliar (at least I learned something so far, ). At least I'll be prepared for the next time something like this pops up again.

 

[Jutachi]

I know there's an imbalance. I was just trying to figure out what deficiency that yellowing was. My first thought was K deficiency. I had low ph so I added a bunch of K based pH up which locked out Ca for sure and looked like maybe a little Mg. I added gypsum and Epsom and it was looking better. Then the yellowing started so I assumed it was the Ca and Mg I added locking out the K. That's why I was adding a bunch of potassium sulfate in the water. Someone mentioned zinc deficiency and I thought that might be possible since I added some TM-7 which has iron and iron can lockout Zn.

Ca, Mg, Zn, and K are all cations so if there's too much K you can add gypsum or Epsom to replace some of the K ions with Ca or Mg. That's how it got fixed after adding too much K from the pH up. Ca is harder to displace than K but it should still work a bit. I just started to learn about how CEC works so I don't have it all figured out yet. And I'm not sure which deficiency that is. If I knew for sure I should be able to fix it with sulfates. I just need to know which sulfate to add.

It's already happier today but I still would like to figure out what deficiency that is so I can deal with it in the future if it ever happens again. I've looked at online pictures but they can't all be trusted. A bunch of sites use the same pic for different deficiencies (GrowWeedEasy is one). They have a similar pic and they say it's Ca deficiency and then there's another of the same pic that they say is K deficiency. I've also seen the same looking yellowing that another site says is Zinc. So it's confusing. I've got stuff for foliar spraying Mg, K, Zn so far. And just ordered some calcium nitrate and calcium chloride so I can test foliar spray with Ca soon too. I was going to use gypsum but heard that's not good for foliar (at least I learned something so far, ). At least I'll be prepared for the next time something like this pops up again.

Thing is you're doing too much assuming and thinking. There isnt a deficiency going on, its an imbalance and once you have an imbalance it looks like it can deficiencies because it will lock other nutes out.. Your focus should be correcting the balance in your soil, not adding more of this and that to try and fix this and that. Me personally, I would either buy a super soil thats mixed well and ready to go, or id try and follow a recipe to the T and mix my own and transplant into it. If you were in coco, id say to just water with a balanced solution til you get a good amount of runoff, but since you are in organic, things dont work the same. Everything takes time. The whole point of organic/no till growing is to have everything in the soil available to the plants already, and top dressing every so often to replenish and feed microbes. If you have to add stuff to try and fix imbalances you already messed up. Not saying it won't work, but right now you're just assuming and trying this and that. They might look better idk they're your plants. Thats all i can say at least. Hope you figure it out homie!

 

[PadawanWarrior]

Thing is you're doing too much assuming and thinking. There isnt a deficiency going on, its an imbalance and once you have an imbalance it looks like it can deficiencies because it will lock other nutes out.. Your focus should be correcting the balance in your soil, not adding more of this and that to try and fix this and that. Me personally, I would either buy a super soil thats mixed well and ready to go, or id try and follow a recipe to the T and mix my own and transplant into it. If you were in coco, id say to just water with a balanced solution til you get a good amount of runoff, but since you are in organic, things dont work the same. Everything takes time. The whole point of organic/no till growing is to have everything in the soil available to the plants already, and top dressing every so often to replenish and feed microbes. If you have to add stuff to try and fix imbalances you already messed up. Not saying it won't work, but right now you're just assuming and trying this and that. They might look better idk they're your plants. Thats all i can say at least. Hope you figure it out homie!

So you don't know the deficiency that caused that yellowing, lol. I don't think you get it. When I say deficiency I don't mean the soil doesn't have the nutrient. I mean the plant is having a hard time accessing it. So yes again of course there's an imbalance. To correct the issue when it first happened it would be helpful to know what the deficiency is from so I can figure out what the excess is that's causing it.

Lockout is a wide term. It could be that the needed nutrients have bonded with other nutrients creating a compound which isn't very soluble. Or it could be from an excess of a nutrient causing others to be less available. The plant can't really choose which cation it takes up. When it wants one of the nutrients that are in cation form it lets off hydrogen ions which surround and basically replace the cations releasing the cations into solution. So if the soil has too much Ca ions more Ca will naturally be in solution and less Mg, K, and so on.

By knowing which cation (if it is one of the cation nutrients which I think it is) is in excess we can correct the imbalance. Without knowing the excess or deficient nutrient you are correct I'm just guessing. Hence the reason for the thread asking what the deficiency looks like.

I've actually been doing the no-till thing for awhile so I'm not totally clueless believe it or not, .

 

[Jutachi]

So you don't know the deficiency that caused that yellowing, lol. I don't think you get it. When I say deficiency I don't mean the soil doesn't have the nutrient. I mean the plant is having a hard time accessing it. So yes again of course there's an imbalance. To correct the issue when it first happened it would be helpful to know what the deficiency is from so I can figure out what the excess is that's causing it.

Lockout is a wide term. It could be that the needed nutrients have bonded with other nutrients creating a compound which isn't very soluble. Or it could be from an excess of a nutrient causing others to be less available. The plant can't really choose which cation it takes up. When it wants one of the nutrients that are in cation form it lets off hydrogen ions which surround and basically replace the cations releasing the cations into solution. So if the soil has too much Ca ions more Ca will naturally be in solution and less Mg, K, and so on.

By knowing which cation (if it is one of the cation nutrients which I think it is) is in excess we can correct the imbalance. Without knowing the excess or deficient nutrient you are correct I'm just guessing. Hence the reason for the thread asking what the deficiency looks like.

I've actually been doing the no-till thing for awhile so I'm not totally clueless believe it or not, .

Okay I understand what youre saying. But tbh, your best bet would to be to send in a soil analysis and a leaf tissue sample, because right now everyone would just be throwing guesses. I can say nitrogen deficiency is whats causing your leaves to turn yellow but theres other things going on causing that to happen. For example, too much calcium can inhibit nitrogen absorbtion and usage. Or maybe its too much potassium and not enough Ca which can cause the issue as well. You see how we are just guessing? If you want to know for sure send in a sample. Which you explained above that you understand, so im confused on why you're still worrying about what caused yellowing lol. Nobody can tell you(without guessing) what your soil is lacking, or your plant unless you do a test, which will answer your question. As your issue isnt just as simple as a deficiency you feel me. The easiest course of action would be to transplant into a well balanced mix, and go from there. You should do a test to see whats throwing off your soil to find the imbalance, and then correct it from there. If there's an imbalance in the soil, the plant will tell you. You are growing organically so your focus should be on getting that soil happy and healthy, which will in turn will give you happy healthy plants. Do some reading up on how nutes work with eachother, as even I need a refresher myself. If you understand that, which you say you do, then you wouldnt be asking what deficiency caused the yellowing, but would be trying to fix the underlying issue thats causing the deficiency/s your worrying about.

 

[PadawanWarrior]

Okay I understand what youre saying. But tbh, your best bet would to be to send in a soil analysis and a leaf tissue sample, because right now everyone would just be throwing guesses. I can say nitrogen deficiency is whats causing your leaves to turn yellow but theres other things going on causing that to happen. For example, too much calcium can inhibit nitrogen absorbtion and usage. Or maybe its too much potassium and not enough Ca which can cause the issue as well. You see how we are just guessing? If you want to know for sure send in a sample. Which you explained above that you understand, so im confused on why you're still worrying about what caused yellowing lol. Nobody can tell you(without guessing) what your soil is lacking, or your plant unless you do a test, which will answer your question. As your issue isnt just as simple as a deficiency you feel me. The easiest course of action would be to transplant into a well balanced mix, and go from there. You should do a test to see whats throwing off your soil to find the imbalance, and then correct it from there. If there's an imbalance in the soil, the plant will tell you. You are growing organically so your focus should be on getting that soil happy and healthy, which will in turn will give you happy healthy plants. Do some reading up on how nutes work with eachother, as even I need a refresher myself. If you understand that, which you say you do, then you wouldnt be asking what deficiency caused the yellowing, but would be trying to fix the underlying issue thats causing the deficiency/s your worrying about.

Ok doing a soil test now.

 

[Jutachi]

Lol was scrolling thru ig and seen this. Thought I'd share wit you. Crazy how sht works lol how to solve your issue. Antagonism = lockout in this case. This is after you've figured out what's causing your imbalance in your soil

 

[PadawanWarrior]

Lol was scrolling thru ig and seen this. Thought I'd share wit you. Crazy how sht works lol how to solve your issue. Antagonism = lockout in this case. This is after you've figured out what's causing your imbalance in your soil View attachment 19002320

I was joking about that soil test. I bought that when I first started growing and never used it. But I really should get my soil tested. When it's done maybe I'll send some in.

 

[Jutachi]

I was joking about that soil test. I bought that when I first started growing and never used it. But I really should get my soil tested. When it's done maybe I'll send some in.

Kinda figured lol. Didnt look like that test was a real in depth soil test analysis lol. Is better than nothing though, dont know how much info you can pull from it though lmao

 

[Ca++]

If you have got it, use it. That pH test will likely follow better procedure than testing with well water. We should use RO, or Distilled. Water with next to nothing in it. To this, we add some of the soil, from both top and bottom of the pot. If top feeding, the bottom is more important then the surface, as the top is washed with every application, and the bottom is where it gathers. So we get our very clean water, add some soil that's due to be watered. Mix it about a bit, and the other thing in that solution to effect pH, is the soil. Or as close as we can get to that.
We can't use a big bottle of water, and a little bit of soil. The EC must be something (say 100ppm) for the pH meter to work properly. It can be better to wet some soil, and with a little squeeze, get some run-off. However, these cheap kits test pH with chemicals. Removing the obstacle electronic measurement creates.

As Zn is likely more available at lower pH, I'm curious if it's so low that the zinc is bonding with something. Thus becoming unavailable. Or as Brad called it quite early, the Mn is responsible, though I can't relate them with my knowledge. Zn would normally be pressured by P, as others have looked to. I think a fair few of us see this as Zn, but feel it's due to some other pressure, not a direct lack of it.
Here we see another Zn deficient plant, that's probably under pressure from P, and so we see Mg demand.

Notice a few folded leaves. Some wavy ones. That yellow stripe that hooks around the serration. Overall light colour. Not strongly mobile or immobile. The red stems. Though as over feed goes, we are not seeing clawing and downward cupping from fast expansion. Just this hard stunting.

You have shown us you have a P test. You might think it's a joke, but a lot of people are circling the idea it's excess P. I don't feel convinced either, but put the idea to bed, by using your test kit.

Damn, I wonder if your high pH tap is giving you calcium phosphate. I would waste a test on that, if you find P you can't explain. It touches bases with every peer here. Everyone can be right.
Wow, I feel like a genius. I shall go and bask in my greatness, then later look it up to find I'm wrong lol

 

[jackspratt61]

Dr Earth has 7 5% Ca...it's the second time you've added ca. You've seen some improvement each time.

 

[CharlesU Farley]

This has been a very interesting thread to follow. I know I'm an old fucking dinosaur so that's what my advice is worth but just looking at your initial pics, you're doing too much of something. And you seem to be doing more stuff to correct doing too much stuff to begin with.

You might want to think about trying less stuff and just seeing how the plants react to what you've done so far.

That's why I like chemical versus organic/slow-release fertilizers... the effects are immediate, so you can quickly gauge the result and adjust up or down as needed.

 

[Rgd]

ANY leaf problem especially necrosis I look for Russets

 

[Jutachi]

 

[PadawanWarrior]

If you have got it, use it. That pH test will likely follow better procedure than testing with well water. We should use RO, or Distilled. Water with next to nothing in it. To this, we add some of the soil, from both top and bottom of the pot. If top feeding, the bottom is more important then the surface, as the top is washed with every application, and the bottom is where it gathers. So we get our very clean water, add some soil that's due to be watered. Mix it about a bit, and the other thing in that solution to effect pH, is the soil. Or as close as we can get to that.
We can't use a big bottle of water, and a little bit of soil. The EC must be something (say 100ppm) for the pH meter to work properly. It can be better to wet some soil, and with a little squeeze, get some run-off. However, these cheap kits test pH with chemicals. Removing the obstacle electronic measurement creates.

As Zn is likely more available at lower pH, I'm curious if it's so low that the zinc is bonding with something. Thus becoming unavailable. Or as Brad called it quite early, the Mn is responsible, though I can't relate them with my knowledge. Zn would normally be pressured by P, as others have looked to. I think a fair few of us see this as Zn, but feel it's due to some other pressure, not a direct lack of it.
Here we see another Zn deficient plant, that's probably under pressure from P, and so we see Mg demand.

Notice a few folded leaves. Some wavy ones. That yellow stripe that hooks around the serration. Overall light colour. Not strongly mobile or immobile. The red stems. Though as over feed goes, we are not seeing clawing and downward cupping from fast expansion. Just this hard stunting.

You have shown us you have a P test. You might think it's a joke, but a lot of people are circling the idea it's excess P. I don't feel convinced either, but put the idea to bed, by using your test kit.

Damn, I wonder if your high pH tap is giving you calcium phosphate. I would waste a test on that, if you find P you can't explain. It touches bases with every peer here. Everyone can be right.
Wow, I feel like a genius. I shall go and bask in my greatness, then later look it up to find I'm wrong lol

Nice writeup. You talked me into using the test kit for the hell of it. I have distilled water so I'm good. It's going to be tough to get the bottom though but I'll try. I have a decent Bluelab soil pH probe but I'll try the kit's pH tester too.

I thought Brad might've been right about the Zn since I was using TM-7 which has iron and iron is antagonistic to zinc but I was foliar spraying half the plant with zinc sulfate and didn't notice any difference from the other side. Since zinc isn't very mobile in the plant I thought I'd be able to tell if it was happier after the zinc. I just filled a spray bottle with zinc sulfate so I'm going to try foliar spraying zinc again. Zinc is supposed to be highly absorbable through leaves so you'd think I'd see some kind of change. This is from NIH.

Translocation of Foliar Absorbed Zn in Sunflower ...​

National Institutes of Health (NIH) (.gov)
by C Li · 2022 · Cited by 5

The present study found that little of the foliar absorbed Zn moved out of the leaf to which it has been applied, even within 7 days

I'm fairly certain it's not P toxicity since I haven't added much at all to this pot since I harvested it until about a week ago. But I'll do the P test anyways. I have the soil and distilled water sitting now. I'll be able to do the test when it settles. It says 30 min to 24 hours so I'll do it once it settles and then again tomorrow.

I know my well water has Ca in it. It combined with some of the high Ca top dressing has given me Mg and K antagonism. The Ca tends to build up in soil over time too I've learned. My solution to that has been the introduction of langbeinite. I learned about that and the sulfate thing from Kratos over at RIU. Thanks for all your suggestions. Genius maybe you are, .

 

[PadawanWarrior]

Dr Earth has 7 5% Ca...it's the second time you've added ca. You've seen some improvement each time.

Not all Dr Earth is created equal I recently found out. Flower Girl is something like 15% Ca. The one that has the least is the Gold one. I bought 2 big bags of Flower Girl on sale before I realized it has so much. I need to be careful how much extra Ca I add into my soil. That's why originally I was thinking too much Ca was locking out the K since I added gypsum a few times in the water to correct for all the K I added that was antagonising the Ca.

This has been a very interesting thread to follow. I know I'm an old fucking dinosaur so that's what my advice is worth but just looking at your initial pics, you're doing too much of something. And you seem to be doing more stuff to correct doing too much stuff to begin with.

You might want to think about trying less stuff and just seeing how the plants react to what you've done so far.

That's why I like chemical versus organic/slow-release fertilizers... the effects are immediate, so you can quickly gauge the result and adjust up or down as needed.

I know I did to much. First I had low pH so I added the K based pH up to cheat and raise the soil pH. Then I had to add gypsum and epsom to counter the extra K. Then I thought K was locking out from the Ca I added so I added a bunch of potassium sulfate. So I know this is all my doing and I screwed the pooch but hey it's a good learning lesson. This plant and soil isn't a big deal. I could toss the whole thing and not be worried but I'd like to figure it out cause that's how I am. It would actually be nice to toss it since I'm running out of room but I can't give up yet. I have more GG4's so it's no big deal. A couple I just flipped to flower, a couple in veg, and some more clones.

View attachment 19002607

That's interesting. I was reading about different ratios last night. I didn't realize there were so many. I knew about the Ca/Mg ratio but not the others. Here's a link to 6 of the ratios. I need to read it more later but I just found it.

Six Secrets to Soil Test Success (Part 1)

Soil testing is considered an essential strategy to avoid driving blind in managing your all-important crop nutrition. Your production and profitability is often determined by nutritional constraints and there is no place for guesswork. A good soil test is your most important starting point...

blog.nutri-tech.com.au

 

[TanzanianMagic]

Just flush the plants a couple of times, and hope for the best.

Get a low concentration of a balanced growth nutrient, like 0.3 EC/150 PPM of for instance BioCanna Vega.

And hope for the best.

The problem is that in organics, less is more. It isn't about chasing nutrient lockouts.

Create the best environment you can - right EC, pH (7.0), nutrient balance, and indoor air and light.

And let nature take care of things. It is a different mindset than hydroponics.

 

[Jutachi]

That's interesting. I was reading about different ratios last night. I didn't realize there were so many. I knew about the Ca/Mg ratio but not the others. Here's a link to 6 of the ratios. I need to read it more later but I just found it.

Six Secrets to Soil Test Success (Part 1)

Soil testing is considered an essential strategy to avoid driving blind in managing your all-important crop nutrition. Your production and profitability is often determined by nutritional constraints and there is no place for guesswork. A good soil test is your most important starting point...

blog.nutri-tech.com.au

Read up on some slownickel post on here, or IG. Transformed my whole perspective on calcium and what it does for the plants. He posts a lot of good info for sure.

 

[PadawanWarrior]

Just flush the plants a couple of times, and hope for the best.

Get a low concentration of a balanced growth nutrient, like 0.3 EC/150 PPM of for instance BioCanna Vega.

And hope for the best.

The problem is that in organics, less is more. It isn't about chasing nutrient lockouts.

Create the best environment you can - right EC, pH (7.0), nutrient balance, and indoor air and light.

And let nature take care of things. It is a different mindset than hydroponics.

I already flushed the crap out of them shortly after I started this thread. I've added fresh topdressing also so if I did just let it ride and hope for the best it probably would get better on it's own now but I wouldn't learn as much.



Hey @Jutachi do you have any links? I'd like to check out what you're talking about.