Help: Yellowing Edges. (Zinc or Manganese Deficiency)

[Ca++]

$50 should buy you a soil analysis.

I'm standing off, because it's organic soil. That could mean anything, and the feeds could be anything. It's good the pH is right though.
In hydro, this generally means sloppy feeding, with no runoff. Easily fixed by just putting the right stuff though. I think Zn is responsible for the symptoms, but it's a more complicated reason than simply not enough.

The soil and water could do with reports. The circumstantial analysis falls a little short

Edit: I might think about a flower feed rinse, because of the P. However, only if it's a balanced chemical feed. As that would be available today.

 

[PadawanWarrior]

$50 should buy you a soil analysis.

I'm standing off, because it's organic soil. That could mean anything, and the feeds could be anything. It's good the pH is right though.
In hydro, this generally means sloppy feeding, with no runoff. Easily fixed by just putting the right stuff though. I think Zn is responsible for the symptoms, but it's a more complicated reason than simply not enough.

The soil and water could do with reports. The circumstantial analysis falls a little short

Edit: I might think about a flower feed rinse, because of the P. However, only if it's a balanced chemical feed. As that would be available today.

I hear what you're saying about the soil. You have no idea what's been put in it. It's old too and so it's had all kinds of things in it. I've thought about testing it but I have a bunch of different pots that have had different amounts of different things, so I'd have to test a bunch. For the deficiencies I've been going by eye and just trying to learn as I go.

I have a week for the zinc to get here so I just foliar sprayed them with Mg and yucca for now. If there's a drastic improvement fast it will have to be the Mg spray since it will take awhile for the micronutrients in the soil to be absorbed.

 

[jackspratt61]

Without testing your water there is no way to know what is in there. I have 7.5ph water,144ppm bicarbonate. Guess what,zero calcium but 93ppm Mg. You should test water and the mix. Take a core sample of each and blend before sending. Excesses are my guess and are very difficult to diagnose by eye.

 

[TanzanianMagic]

It's in 5 gallons of recycled organic soil. Usually just top dressed but some gypsum, potassium sulfate, and Epsom has been watered in trying to fix things. It definitely has parts that look like Mg deficiency but those yellow leaf edges I thought were K deficiency. It can't be though since I've been giving it soo much K and it seems to be getting worse.

My well water is around 170 ppm and 7.8 pH. I know it has plenty Ca since I've had issues with a little too much Ca. The top dresses usually have plenty Ca already and I think added with my water is a little much over time. The runoff was a little high so I flushed it a bunch to try and get rid of some of all that potassium sulfate I've been giving. Thanks.

Found it.

"The runoff was a little high so I flushed it a bunch to try and get rid of some of all that potassium sulfate I've been giving. Thanks."

This is probably it. Checking Mulder's Chart, potassium is antagonistic with magnesium. Too much potassium is locking out the magnesium, so there's no point in giving it more magnesium. Or potassium.

It's in 5 gallons of recycled organic soil. Usually just top dressed but some gypsum, potassium sulfate, and Epsom has been watered in trying to fix things.

All I can say about that is that they're all containing sulfur.

It definitely has parts that look like Mg deficiency but those yellow leaf edges I thought were K deficiency.

Well water has a tendency to change with the seasons. The PPM (I presume it is of the 500 scale,
which would make it 0.36 EC), which is almost soft water. So the extra calcium won't hurt.

"I know it has plenty Ca since I've had issues with a little too much Ca. The top dresses usually have plenty Ca already and I think added with my water is a little much over time."

This is just a general comment, however when it comes to balanced nutrients in organics...

When mixing supersoil, you should check for the following nutrients:

Nutrient - optional choices

N - bloodmeal, high nitrogen bat guano, alfalfa
P - bonemeal, rock phosphate, high phosphorus bat guano
K - bat guano, wood ash, vinasse
Ca - bonemeal, rock phosphate, gypsum, magnesium lime
Mg - maerl/magnesium lime, espom salt
Si - sand, silica clay, stinging nettle
S - espsom salt, gypsum
Micronutrients - lavameal, basaltmeal, seaweed

Worm castings - for chitinase (bat guano has lots of chitin for chitinase to break down into chitosan and raise plant defenses), potassium, beneficial fungi

Usually the proportions I can vouch for working:

Preparation: put the perlite in a tub with warm water for 10 minutes, use everthing that floats and throw away the rest. Give it a final flush to remove the dust, which will turn the mix in to cement over time.

Base mix: 80% light mix, 20% worm castings. Add 2 tablespoons of magnesium lime per gallon. (I won't go into how many deficiencies that prevents.) Mix those, and add 20% of perlite by volume.

Supersoil mix: 2 tablespoons of above per 2.5 gallons of soil, for the supersoil mix.
Mix with 50 to 75 percent of the base mix.
Add 20% of perlite by volume, because there are a lot of fine particles in there.

Finish: fill the pots with a drainage layer if you tend overwater or live in a humid environment, fill 1/2 to 3/4 with supersoil mix, and top off with 25% of base mix.

A longer term option is to add plant material to the supersoil, like stinging nettles, comfrey, lamb's quarters, and of course cannabis leaves. Bury a thin layer of 3 inches deep under 2 inches of supersoil and let decompose from the fall to the next spring.

Or sow some plants, veggies and herbs and grow those in the supersoil, turn them under in the fall, and mix them thoroughly in the spring before planting.

The mix has to be watered, adding a fermentation speeds things up a little, and then rest for at least a month, before it can be safely used.

You can use a fermentation of worm castings, or sprouted hempseeds for feed and to speed composting, and feed the plant.

Fill a container 20% with sprouted hempseeds, and raw sugar and water. A fermentation lock available in fermentation and beermaking stores keeps everything anaerobic. Use a cap per quart of water.

Or fill a bottle with 20% of worm castings, add filtered water and let it stand for a week. Filter off the clear liquid, which will keep for a long time.

There other, more elaborate ways of making wormcastings or compost tea, however these work for my schedule.

 

[PadawanWarrior]

Found it.


This is probably it. Checking Mulder's Chart, potassium is antagonistic with magnesium. Too much potassium is locking out the magnesium, so there's no point in giving it more magnesium. Or potassium.

View attachment 18997882



All I can say about that is that they're all containing sulfur.



Well water has a tendency to change with the seasons. The PPM (I presume it is of the 500 scale,
which would make it 0.36 EC), which is almost soft water. So the extra calcium won't hurt.


This is just a general comment, however when it comes to balanced nutrients in organics...

When mixing supersoil, you should check for the following nutrients:

Nutrient - optional choices

N - bloodmeal, high nitrogen bat guano
P - bonemeal, rock phosphate
K - high potassium bat guano, wood ash
Ca - bonemeal, rock phosphate, gypsum, magnesium lime
Mg - maerl/magnesium lime, espom salt
Si - sand, silica clay, stinging nettle
Su - espsom salt, gypsum
Micronutrients - lavameal, basaltmeal, seaweed

Worm castings - for chitosan, potassium, beneficial fungi

Usually the proportions I can vouch for working:

Preparation: put the perlite in a tub with warm water for 10 minutes, use everthing that floats and throw away the rest. Give it a final flush to remove the dust, which will turn the mix in to cement over time.

Base mix: 80% light mix, 20% worm castings. Add 2 tablespoons of magnesium lime per gallon. (I won't go into how many deficiencies that prevents.) Mix those, and add 20% of perlite by volume.

Supersoil mix: 2 tablespoons of above per 2.5 gallons of soil, for the supersoil mix.
Mix with 50 to 75 percent of the base mix.
Add 20% of perlite by volume, because there are a lot of fine particles in there.

Finish: fill the pots with a drainage layer if you tend overwater or live in a humid environment, fill half 3/4 with supersoil mix, and top off with 25% of base mix.

A longer term option is to add plant material to the supersoil, like stinging nettles, comfrey, lamb's quarters, and of course cannabis leaves. Bury a thin layer of 3 inches deep under 2 inches of supersoil and let decompose from the fall to the next spring.

Or sow some plants, veggies and herbs and grow those in the supersoil, turn them under in the fall, and mix them thoroughly in the spring before planting.

You can use a fermentation of worm castings, or sprouted hempseeds for feed and to speed composting, and feed the plant.

Fill a container 20% with sprouted hempseeds, and raw sugar and water. A fermentation lock available in fermentation and beermaking stores keeps everything anaerobic. Use a cap per quart of water.

Or fill a bottle with 20% of worm castings, add filtered water and let it stand for a week. Filter off the clear liquid, which will keep for a long time.

There other, more elaborate ways of making wormcastings or compost tea, however these work for my schedule.

Thanks for the informative writeup. This is the worst lockout I've ever had. First the soil pH was low so I flushed with potassium based pH up. Then I noticed Ca and Mg deficiency signs. I added gypsum and Epsom for a bit and the plant looked happy. Then the K deficiency signs started. That's when I started adding potassium sulfate. But I also added Epsom a couple times since it looked like both K and Mg deficiency signs. I know adding all that is what caused where I'm at now.

I read somewhere before that I could counter some deficiencies with sulfates. Since it had high K after the pH up I thought the gypsum would turn into Ca ions and S ions. The Ca ions were supposed to replace some of the K ions. It seemed to work. But then I started seeing K deficiency so I was adding potassium sulfate trying to get the K ions to replace some of the Ca. But I know it doesn't work as well to try and replace the Ca ions since they has a stronger charge. But I thought it would still work, just slower. I guess I need to do more research on sulfates, lol. Ca toxicity was my first thought though.

If what I'm seeing is a Zn deficiency from lockout instead of K it would be the Fe that I've been adding in the form of TM-7 locking out the Zn. Fe has an even stronger bond than Ca so that could be a possibility too. At least if I'm thinking about this right.

I've been using the soil for 5 years and my other pots are doing pretty good still. I have noticed that after I added so much of a mix I made up that I would get what looked like slight K deficiency for a week or 2 but it went away. I thought it was from the Mg in the Langbeinite locking out K since it went away after I added a little potassium sulfate but maybe it was just the week or 2 that balanced things out. But maybe it's the TM-7 I added to the mix locking out Zn. I'm not sure anymore.

I do use cover crops now in my other pots that have been going for years, but this little 5 gal pot doesn't have them yet. This soil was from my 15 gallons that I mixed some peat in that sat for awhile. It was working great until the pH got low and then I added all that stuff. I think the cover crops helped my 15 gal pots soil quite a bit. They seem to be happier at least.

Today I was planning on adding some microbes to the water and maybe some EWC so the microbes maybe help breakup any bound up nutrients. I also was going to do another Mg foliar to see if they show any difference. Thanks again for your input.

 

[bloyd]

Excess P can lock out zinc, then iron. Without knowing your top dressing/additives can't say if this seems likely.

 

[PadawanWarrior]

Excess P can lock out zinc, then iron. Without knowing your top dressing/additives can't say if this seems likely.

It isn't excess P. I haven't added much P to that pot at all. I know it's tough to diagnose when you have no idea what I've added.

 

[PadawanWarrior]

Well I was trying different foliar sprays and can't see any really make a difference. I did Epsom on half and potassium sulfate on the other half and didn't notice any difference. Then I got the zinc sulfate so the last few days I've sprayed the right side with zinc sulfate and the left with Epsom. I haven't noticed any of the sprays doing anything noticeable.

I gave it 1/2 cup of Dr Earth 4-6-3 a few days ago and have given it 2 small 1/2 tsp doses of corn steep powder to try and get it kick started. I also couldn't help myself so I gave it 1/2 teaspoon potassium sulfate with each of the last 2 watering. Just thought I'd update you all.

 

[mudballs]

My guess is you're missing micronutrients like boron or copper from recycling so often.

 

[X15]

Did you happen to buffer the soil before potting? 6.3 is pretty low for me in organic recycled soil.

 

[jackspratt61]

How long does it take to dry out the 5gal of mix now?

 

[PadawanWarrior]

My guess is you're missing micronutrients like boron or copper from recycling so often.

I tried giving it some TM-7 and Big 6 micronutrients but it didn't seem to help.

Did you happen to buffer the soil before potting? 6.3 is pretty low for me in organic recycled soil.

Just check the soil pH again before I watered and I got 5.7 this time. That would explain some of my issues.

How long does it take to dry out the 5gal of mix now?

It dries out in a couple days if I let it, but I've been giving 2 liters a day.


So just now I added another 1/4 cup of 4-6-3 since I think I only added 1/4 cup before and it couldn't hurt. A tsp of Neptunes Harvest Fish and Seaweed in a liter of water with extra pH up added. Then 2 more liters of high pH'd water.

I wanted to do one thing at a time to figure this crap out, but that's easier said than done. I think I'll get a handle on it now. My guess is they'll start improving starting now but we'll see.

I'm also going to foliar spray the right half of the plant with Big 6 micronutrients and continue foliar spraying the left with Epsom just to see if one side starts improving faster.

 

[linde]

Soil is too hot. Burning the plants

 

[blazeoneup]

You might need to use a product like spray and grow to help correct the issue through foliar feeding. Sometimes you have to use a foliar product to sustain the plants while you allow the soil to work itself out or buying you time to send off a soil sample for a test. This removes the guessing out of the picture and allows immediate results while you figure out what the real issue is through soil analysis. I'm guessing 2 treatments with a product such as spray and grow will get them back to normal health and growth, but it wont fix the issue with your soil mix and feeding schedule.

 

[PadawanWarrior]

You might need to use a product like spray and grow to help correct the issue through foliar feeding. Sometimes you have to use a foliar product to sustain the plants while you allow the soil to work itself out or buying you time to send off a soil sample for a test. This removes the guessing out of the picture and allows immediate results while you figure out what the real issue is through soil analysis. I'm guessing 2 treatments with a product such as spray and grow will get them back to normal health and growth, but it wont fix the issue with your soil mix and feeding schedule.

I'll have to look into Spray and Grow. I have been foliar spraying for a couple weeks with different things trying to see if something would make a difference. Epsom, potassium sulfate, zinc sulfate, and now Big 6 micronutrients. But I haven't noticed any change from the foliar sprays. It'd be nice to figure out what nutrient is causing that yellowing though for future reference.

 

[mudballs]

You can't fix those plants, we can't make those yellow edges turn green, even if you made soil perfect. You can flower finish them well, but that stuff won't fix. If you can afford it, mix up 2 batches of soil with varying degrees of inputs you feel might work and send in samples for testing...get assay back, check deficiency and adjust. I know it's frustrating long path, i went thru it without the testing so it was double frustrating. Eventually you land on a no maintenance mix.

 

[Ca++]

I'm intrigued by the 6.3 reading, when the water is 7.9
I don't feel the meter can ignore the water, as it is in fact suited to hydro applications. So the water level present at the time of testing, effects the read. I would want to see reading at a few moisture levels, to plot what's really going on. As mathematically, 6.3 is between 7.9 and something much lower.

 

[mudballs]

"Just watered with plain water and the runoff ppm with my cheap meter was around 1850"
Huge clue, the media has/had a ridiculous EC, it was a high salinity soil that whole time, salts, restricted uptake...hmmm...you're not cooking the plants as much as you're scorching the soil. PH can be fine and in range but EC or pwEC can be through the roof. It wasn't a single nute locking out, it was the soil being too far out of zone for good plant growth...i still think ur short on micros cuz even in a high pwEC media if everything the plant needs is there it shows a diff stress.

 

[mudballs]

https://www.cannabisbusinesstimes.com/article/cultivation-matters-how-to-diagnose-and-correct-high-electrical-conductivity-ec/

You have necrosis spots so that's my eval...you scorched the soil, causing high EC...and imbalanced soil/nute composition

 

[jackspratt61]

They're losing nitrogen now as well but still drinking. What N and Ca inputs do you have?'