heat signature question

[pmorris]

purple wreck:

Heat-detecting camera ruled unconstitutional
by CLD Merriman (23 May, 2003)

Police can't legally use thermal imaging.

Ontario Court of Appeal, Jan 27/03

Police investigating a suspected grow-op used an RCMP airplane equipped with a FLIR camera to detect heat emanating from a property owned by Walter Tessling. (The FLIR takes a picture of the thermal energy or heat radiating from the exterior of a building. It can detect heat sources within a home but it cannot identify the exact nature of that source or see inside the building.)

The FLIR camera in this case indicated that the appellant's property had heat emanations potentially indicative of a marijuana grow. During a subsequent search, RCMP found a large quantity of marijuana, scales, and weapons, and Tessling received six months imprisonment for trafficking, as well as 12 months concurrent for weapons offenses.

The appeal court found that the warrantless use of the FLIR technology to detect heat emanating from Tessling's home was a breach of his rights under section 8 of the Charter. The evidence was excluded and Tessling was acquitted.

The United States Supreme Court has also found that warrantless use of FLIR technology is an unlawful search constituting a violation of the Fourth Amendment.

So with that in mind KEEP everything else under control, so they dont have a reason to even get a warrent for FLIR. and you will be all good.

 

[purple wreck]

purple wreck:
The United States Supreme Court has also found that warrantless use of FLIR technology is an unlawful search constituting a violation of the Fourth Amendment.[/B]

So with that in mind KEEP everything else under control, so they dont have a reason to even get a warrent for FLIR. and you will be all good.

Thats great if i trusted the cops to go by the rules.

 

[purple wreck]

so GDW, does this only work at night or can the do it in the day also.

 

[Guest]

It all depends on the unit they are using. If it's a Hilo flying over a place. I doubt they are scanning. Most of them are looking for the cannabis green color that sticks out while in flight. Cannabis does stick out like a sore thumb. "If", for some reason they are using it and the cops is trained on the unit well. He would flip the unit to "White Hot" You can scann in "white hot" and see alot better then "Dark hot" Yes, these units "Can" be used in the day time, but most of the persons using these units. Tend to use these units at night. They get a better signature then daytime. To answer you question purple wreck. Yes, these units cna be used during night time and day time. I'm going to write up a full report on how to duck and dodge this shit. Do some searching on IR,FLIR,White Hot,Dark Hot, and you should find plenty of info on this stuff. What i would use to do. Run light during day light hours. This does a couple of things. I'm at work, so it looks like a family is just there for wattage use at home. I don't have a signal at night to let them key in on my place. Most of the grower's here are small time. I'd say roughly anything under 2,000-3,000 watt's should be good with proper setup. Keep the info flowing members. It's the only way it's going to help other grower's.
Take care,
BG

 

[Guest]

>>> so the FLIR can not see every heat i my house just the ones near the windows and doors, or can the see by the windows better<<<

Hi Purple Wreck,

-ALL- exterior surfaces of a house will have a heat signature of some sort. If the house is cooler than the ambient air temperature outside, it will read differently than if the house is warmer than the air (different colors depict different temps, just like with sproutco's dog pic, that I'd add looks like a fine keeshond-type pooch ;^>) )

A triple-pane, low-e, argon gas-filled window, such as is typically found in super-energy-rated homes in my area, often has about an R-4 value as insulation. I'd guess that my foam-filled steel doors are about an R-10-R-12 value. The walls of my upper two stories of my home have R-32-R-34 walls, and an R-60 ceiling up top, with a cold roof (due to a serious space between the insulated area of the ceiling and the metal roof, which allows snow to slide down still frozen, without icing up, etc. My basement is roughly an R-42 value, with no insulation at all under my slab. (Most engineers will tell you that the point of diminishing returns on insulation is about R-27 for a wall). And my top deck off of the second story is a black surface that sometimes exceeds 150 degrees in direct sun in mid-Summer.

All of these surfaces have different qualities and insulation factors, as well as heat reflection/absorbtion, etc., and thus, different heat signatures on a FLIR display screen.

Folks running FLIR, especially for LEO's purposes, prefer the night, as the cooler air temp often allows a better contrast, but disparity between two different temps is detectable in the day or the night.

If your closet is in the basement, or a floor of the home that has no connection to a roof surface, it is in your benefit. You'll still want to think about what to do with your heat build-up, for several reasons.

Surfaces with lower 'R' value will read hotter than surfaces with higher 'R' values, assuming that the indoor air temperature in each case is the same.

And you can have an ample R value and be wasting your investment if you don't have a good vapor barrier in place.

I heat 2,500 sq. feet in a fairly cold location in the sub-arctic, and use a total of approx. 600 U.S. gallons of #1 diesel for both heat and domestic hot water for a full 12 month period.

But I blew a .062 on a blower door test , and have the super-insulated structure defined earlier, utilizing a heat recovery ventilation system for fresh air.

And with heating oil up here at $2.50 a gallon U.S., and climbing abruptly very soon, I can't say that I'm sorry that I built that way.

Plastic vapor barrier, tremco or vapor barrier tape, and insulation are three of the least expensive items that you'll put into a quality home when you build/buy, and whether you live in a cold climate where you heat your home, or a hot climate, where you cool your home, it will -ALL- save you money and protect your privacy in the long run.

moose eater

 

[Guest]

Hey Moose, I'm guessing your in construction for a living. If not, you sure do know alot about homes. Great info your posting, glad to see this info getting around. Cops do not play fare. It's always great to know this info.
later,
BG

 

[Guest]

Thanks GDW. I designed the one that I described, and saved $$$$ by learning some things about energy efficiency along the way.

Banks will sometimes have access to money at a lower rate if a place is energy efficient, and the place will typically have a higher resale value too, not counting what you save in costs in the interim.

There's some folks here in the area in which I live who burn 200-400 gallons of fuel in one month in January or February, some of whom only have half of my square footage. ;^>)

I think that it's a crime that we're burning oil at the rates we are, all the while complaining about our dependence on the stuff (especially foreign oil), but doing very little to change it.... especially when the improvements that I listed are so reasonably cost effective.

But no, construction isn't my professsion by trade. I'm informally black-listed from my past profession. As a 'squeaky wheel,' I got 'greased.'

I was formerly a licensed clinician, and after my informal black-listing, I slowly allowed my two previous professional licenses to lapse, and decided that I'd felt that it was a fucked up field for a long time anyway.

I had considered private practice for a while, and eventually decided that 'Peyton Place for profit' wasn't in my genetic make-up, and didn't fit my soul well either.

Oh well... another hundred grand shot to hell... ;^>)

moose eater

 

[Chester]

Venting should be a concern as in cool temps, there will be an IR heat "plume"... Some folks who thought they'd be clever & buried a vent line that exited in a stump got nailed that way, as normal hollow tree stumps do not vent much hot air...

Using a chimney as your vent is OK, as they'd have a tough time making a case. If you are venting a lot through a sewer vent, it would be best if you are on a city sewer. It's interesting, but on a city system, some houses always have air being sucked into their vents, and others always have air coming out. If you are on a septic system, you might consider the chimney instead.

In a cold climate, an unused chimney flue could be damaged by the humid air you are venting, so you might consider installing a plastic pipe to contain the moist air. If the chimney is used by furnace or hot water heater, then it will likely be warm enough to not worry about condensing moisture on the flue lining.

Stay safe...

 

[teddybud]

I've got choppers always flying over my nieghborhood and there are several operations around here... never had any trouble with the copters.

 

[Dr.Feelgood]

Wouldn't insulation with radiant barrier foil help shield the surrounding structure from absorbing/displaying the heat from your grow?

 

[Guest]

Hey, Dr.

The foil insulation will reflect 'some' heat back inward, but an insulated wall will always absorb some of the heat from a heated area. The more dense the wall and the higher the R-value, the less the inside heat is 'visible' on the outer wall, providing proper ventilation is used..

Imagine the cheapest, worst cooler that you've ever owned; the one that allowed the ice to melt in an hour or so. Then imagine the best cooler that you've ever owned; perhaps it took two days for ice to thoroughly melt. Line both with aluminum foil.

Placing either heated items or cool items of equal temp in each one, the one with the least insulation will feel closer to the temp of what's inside.

The foil will help.

The catch-22, or irony, is that once you have a super-insulated wall, your lamp's heat is even more contained, causing a potential need for increased venting..

So the ticket is: -ample- (proper) ventilation, as well as -ample- insulation.

Foil reflects some heat (there are several different manufacturers that make a variety of foam-board thicknesses that come pre-lined with foil on both sides, and they sport a higher R-value per inch of thickness than standard foam board). But it's not an end-all.

It's all a matter of what lengths you (wanna'/feel the need to) go to. FLIR may be a minimal risk, as some have pointed out. But how much risk is too much risk?? That's a personal line.

moose eater

 

[Hex]

What about location how likely are they to use flir over a field? If they saw a heat source coming from a field which is being used for horse storage would that arouse more suspicion? The venting that will be set up should mean that most of the heat is cooled before leaving the adf mylar lined room. There is going to be a constantly running jenny underneath the grow how suspicious would that be? (the heat from the jenny would leak out of all sides How secure would this plan be? to let you know its a disused horse box with the jenny dug into a pit underneath. Sorry if im stealing the thread should perhaps have started my own

 

[Guest]

FLIR just measures heat on surfaces with an infra-red imaging screen. They're probably less apt to be using it on open corn fields, but they may just leave it on, as GoldDustWomen spoke about. I know that there are pilots who use it on trails in Hawaii from discussion with their family members.

Soil maintains a pretty set temp range from Winter to Summer, and the depth necessary to dissipate heat is relatively deep. Heat seeks cold in re. to homeostacis, but hot -air- rises. A distinction that some arctic home-builders find out in hind-sight.

If it's in the open, and in a place where there theoretically should be -no- heat signature, then I'd defer to Chester's comments about the 'venting stump' hazzards.

My belief has been for a long time that a super-insulated underground bunker, under an existing heated building, but with smaller area/perimeter measurements, under a slab immediately beneath the building above, so that the 'basement' takes up considerably less area, and has covering by the building above at the edges, with sufficient insulation so as to not indicate the presence of anything other than a crawl space beneath, and a very private access, with venting through an unused wood stove chimney of stainless insulated stack pipe, is the ticket. But by description, you can guess that involves $$$$$$$$$$.

I would guestimate that if you added somewhere in the neighborhood of $20k to the existing construction costs of a small heated cabin, and either had someone you trust with your life, or yourself, doing the work on the 'basement,' your biggest vulnerabilities would then be loose lips and utility bills.

.... and Murphy...

moose eater

 

[Chester]

You mean something like this guy's setup????

Cannabis Factory in TN.


Pretty amazing, and I wish I knew how he got nailed. (Snitch, sting, etc.....)

 

[Guest]

I'd seen that one a while back, Chester.

But if I'm not mistaken, he had several loose links. I don't think that his 'basement' was of a smaller area than his home by a long shot. In fact, I believe that it protruded -way- out into open lawns, based on the physical description of the thing. And, though I'm not positive in my recollection, I think that he may have also been stealing electricity.

An additional comment re. my earlier mention of a cabin; it should be on a property that has enough structures to utilize the amount of electricity reflected in the bill.

If all that's on a property is one small Hansel and Grettle type cabin, and the meter's spinning like a loose drag on a reel with a trophy lake trout, it's a no-no.

moose eater

 

[Guest]

Here's a picture:

 

[Guest]

Thanks S2D,

As you can see from the pic, the walls are all relatively the same color. The roof is a different color. That's because the insulation values in roofs and walls are typically different.

If LEO's gonna' pursue something, it's gonna' likely be a notable difference in shades of color where there otherwise shouldn't be one.

For example, if the color on one of those walls all of a sudden peaked into a higher heat range, indicating that there's an unusual heat source in a specific area, or the whole house is running at 90 degrees f. (tempered, of course, by the walls insulation, but notably hotter than the average home), 'his' curiousity might come up a bit.

If it were truly a just world, LEO would take into account that persons have boilers, indoor electric saunas, etc., etc.

But LEO is often a voyeur. He gets paid to be a voyeur. If he were in any other profession, he'd likely be diagnosable. ;^>)

moose eater

 

[George]

quick question. if i live in a 3 story complex, and im on the 1st story, and temps in my area are 100F+ daytime, and i run 12/12 during the day only, can they spot my light? or would the exterior of the house be too hot to notice a differnce in temps? and considering im on the first story, and esetially have no roof, can they spot me?

 

[Guest]

This, again, has lots of specific variables: Is your building insulated, and how well? Is your building air-conditioned? How much warmer than the rest of your apt./condo is the room in question? How many lights of what wattage are being run at one time?

In a similar way that a warmer wall in a cooler exterior air temp shows up, FLIR can still read different temperature contrasts on a cooler surface in a hotter environment too. It still gives off different color-shades for different temps.

If you're running a 400 watt lamp in an insulated and air conditioned building, then heat likely isn't a big concern.

If there's major disparity between most of your outer walls' temps and the room in question's outside wall temps, then you might consider making some changes to venting and/or insulation, and/or number/types of lamps.

Again, the odds of getting nailed by FLIR for the average person with a personal use op aren't necessarily very high.

It's each person's personal decision as to how much risk is too much risk, and what they're comfortable with.

moose eater

 

[supermanlives]

ha ha ha fly over all ya want .hopefully they run out of fuel. moose got the right idea.