heat signature question

[Lugen]

Stealing electricity is a no-no, it gives them automatic search warrant. I say you are better off with a $2500/month electricity bill, then you are stealing power.

3 reasons grows go down (at least in Canada)

1)Rats
2)Smell
3)Fire

Electricity useage in Canada (except BC now, thanks to a new bylaw) is private. They need a search warrant to access your electricity bills, except in bc. In BC now anything over 93kw/day sends up a red flag, and they will check you out. If my bills were $3000/month, I would pay it on time and go about my business

 

[Tokabowl]

With the load of cash these guys were making, they could easily have afforded to run the necessary generators and buy all the fuel they needed, rather than raising suspicion with their electrics consumption

They were just far too greedy, and too much greed gets you busted...

Ill stop the off topic now, sorry...

 

[Lugen]

I'm pretty sure they were running generators.

If you have ever seen this warehouse, its right off a MAJOR highway. It's in the open, they got away with it for 2 years or more.....anyway

/end rant

 

[Guest]

>>>They were just far too greedy, and too much greed gets you busted...<<<

It's not that far off topic, Tokabowl; too much greed can lose friends, get you busted, or get you killed.

Stealing's not nice, even when it's from folks that a person may not like. Karma bites.

But the issue of heat signatures, FLIR, and guarding against detection, is also about being cheap vs. spending the money and time necessary to better guard against a bad day. It's all very similar in that respect. Same with guarding against notable odiferousness.

How many folks who've been busted, if asked after the fact, "Was the $800.00 you saved worth your freedom and possessions?" would say, "Yeah, it was."?

Yet many, whether it be cheating on electrical bills, cheating on air filtration and venting, or cheating on proper heat containment and reduction, would rather keep that $20.00 for pizza tonight instead of banking it to make things right.

We've all gotta' take responsibility for ourselves and be pro-active; that one moment of "Oh -SHIT-!!" removes a thousand good times and visions of good things to come..

Some good input in the last several posts about karma, in my opinion. My .02 cents.

moose eater

 

[Tokabowl]

i remember reading a news article bout it somewhere (cant seem to find it, but it was posted here a while back, or maybe at PG) and it said the investigation had been going on for 5 years + so their op had been going on longer than that
surely you would relocate after a couple years and even more $millions

 

[Tokabowl]

Ahh, found it: http://www.ehowa.com/features/tennessepotbust.shtml

This is how they grow it in Tennessee. This grow was underneath a house in a cave. The entrance was through a secret hydraulic door in the garage that led to a concrete ramp that went about 50 yards into the ground. Inside the cave was living quarters and a secret escape hatch that led you through a tunnel that exited via another hydraulic door that opened up a rock on the outside. It was very elaborate. The set up allowed them to harvest every 60 days which resulted in multimillion dollar sales. One of the guys busted was living in a house on the water in Florida and had a nice yacht. One of the agents in Nashville worked on this for 5 years before the warrant was finally served in December.

 

[Tokabowl]

and a news article: http://www.dicksonherald.com/apps/p...gory=NEWS01&ArtNo=512180362&SectionCat=MTCN02

HARTSVILLE, Tenn. — Investigators from the 15th Judicial District Drug Task Force found a mother lode of marijuana in the unlikeliest of places — a cave.

Beneath a stylish A-frame home on Dixon Springs Road in eastern Trousdale County, three men allegedly set up a sophisticated operation to grow as much as 100 pounds of marijuana every eight weeks.

"It's pretty amazing what they had under there — water for irrigation, special lighting, devices to keep the humidity just right. These guys were professionals. They knew what they were doing," said District Attorney General Tommy Thompson of Hartsville.

"They could grow in 60 days what it would take four and a half months to grow outside."

Arrested on Wednesday were Brian Gibson and Greg Compton, while a third man, Fred Strunk, was arrested near Gainesville, Fla. All three are in jail, with Gibson and Compton being held in the Trousdale County Jail. Bail was set for Gibson and Compton at $5 million, while Strunk's was set at $15 million, Thompson said. Local authorities were in Florida yesterday to return Strunk to Tennessee.

According to the district attorney general, the investigation into the operation began about five years ago when a home was built above the cave, but it never appeared anyone lived there.

"The front of the cave used to be a hole that you'd crawl into, and it opened up into a pretty big room that was 20-feet high. They cut the side of the hill so you could just drive right into the cave,'' Thompson said.

The cave, reached from the house via secret entrances, is said to be about two miles long, but the marijuana operation was located about 100 yards inside. Thompson said the other end of the cave had been blocked to keep trespassers out.

According to the prosecutor, the men told locals they were going to be mining statuary rock.

In another suspicious incident, the local electric company was asked to install a larger transformer than usually required by a residence. But apparently that was not enough electrical power to operate the grow lamps required to raise 800 marijuana plants at a time. Instead of asking the electric company for more power, the men spliced into the Tri-County Electric line and were stealing electricity, Thompson said.

"They had the operation set up so that one person could operate it during the growing season,'' he noted.

To harvest the illegal crop, Thompson said the men would hire a half-dozen Hispanic workers in Arizona and drive them to Tennessee. For part of the journey the windows on the van would be covered so the workers did not know where they were.

"They would drive right into the cave and let them out to begin working,'' the prosecutor said.

"As for distributing it, we're sure that some of it went to Nashville and other locations in the area."

There could be more arrests, but Thompson said he believes the ringleaders of the operation have already been nabbed.

"It's just unbelievable what they've done. It's like something out of a James Bond movie."

 

[ScubaSteve]

would a 4 inch foam panel with a aluminum skin on each side work well to keep the heat in? They have a expanded polystyrene core and Aluminum facings on both sides. The thickness of the aluminum on each side is 102 mm.

 

[Guest]

Hi Scuba Steve,

I'm guessing that the rating on that aluminum is actually '.102 mils.', unless it's a rigid aluminum facing of some sort, but I'm just about positive that it's not 102 mm, or each face would be about 1-1/2" thick and WAY heavy...

Foil almost always adds to the reflection of heat and cold, depending on which side it's facing. A good thing.

Most insulation foam board (specifically that for exterior use; your standard rigid blue and pink boards, typically found in 2'x4', 2'x8', and 4'x8' sheets) is about an R-5 per inch of foam. Therefore 4" of that would be about an R-20.

Are you putting it into an already insulated area like a room in a house, etc., or is that the totality of it?

Ample venting and odor filtration?

moose eater

 

[ScubaSteve]

planing on making a room inside of a garage. venting, odor control and all that good stuff. Venting will be going to the attic.

You are right, it is .102 mm

 

[Guest]

Hi Scuba Steve,

I neglected to qualify that comment re. thickness of foam and R values; the foil on each side of that board will likely boost that R-20 to about an R-25 or so (+/-) if it's a true 4" of standard density to that which I'm familiar with, and depending on the manufacturer's rating, and the R-5 per inch is based on standard foam insulation board of those types described.

Supermanlives has a good description of a room within a room, and the more that I thought about it (convective looping resulting from uninsulated air-spaces aside) the more I liked the idea, if you can duct from the 'box' out to where it's being vented, and keep that area between the inner 'box' and the exterior walls at a standard temp associated with an average garage in your area.

Depending on your ability to hook up more wattage, you might even consider AC-cooling of the exhaust, but that jacks your electrical usage a -whole- lot more than simply plugging in fans. Therefore it's likely dependent on your budget and how many lamps, fans, etc., that you're already intending to run. If you heat your attic to higher than normal temps, that -could- compromise you on FLIR.

Is the roof under your shingles insulated, as in a 'warm roof,' or is the the upstairs ceiling insulated, and the actual roof uninsulated?

Are you in a warm or cool climate? Regular winter months with snow, or no real winter?

Garages (those being used for their intended purposes) typically run cooler than homes in many climates. In the sub-arctic here, many persons would keep a heated garage between 50 and 55 degrees in the Winter.

You want any (infra-red) heat readings from outside that building to look as normal as normal can be, with no hot or cold areas if possible.

moose eater

 

[ScubaSteve]

The actual roof is uninsulated, the ceiling is insulated. The attic is hot to begin with, 90+ degrees year round easy. South East US, no real winter. Garage stays around 85 degrees in the summer. Plan on going with a 1k lamp or 2 600's. My current setup is small so Im not to worried about heat.

The panels im talking about are called ELITE INTER-LOCK PANEL Insulated Roof System. I think I was wrong with the thickness of the aluminum. Here is the description I found for it.

Facings are 0.024 inch (0.610
mm) thick and comply with ASTM B 209 requirements for
Alloy 3105-H15 or 3003-H16, with 10-mil-thick (0.25 mm)
polyester dry film base coat and a surface coating of baked
acrylic enamel. The finish has a flame-spread index of 25 or
less and a smoke-developed index of 450 or less, when
tested in accordance with UBC Standard 8-1 (ASTM E 84).

 

[ScubaSteve]

Not sure if this makes a difference, but heres what they say about the foam they use

Foam Plastic: The foam plastic is an expanded
polystyrene with a nominal density of 2 pounds per cubic
foot (32 kg/m3), and is produced by Imperial Foam. The
foam plastic insulation has a flame-spread index of 25 or
less and a smoke-developed index of 450 or less when
tested in accordance with UBC Standard 8-1 (ASTM E 84).

 

[pmorris]

heat signature is least of your worries.

 

[Guest]

Hi pmorris,

I think that most folks here have already acknowledged that infra-red heat readings are not -the- most apt to get a person in trouble, especially in contrast to loose talk, informants, odor, utility bills, and a couple of other variables.

But in my opinion, and I believe that of some others, trying to 'cap' each of the possible risks is better than assuming a degree of safety that hasn't been provided for. In other words, if you can 'dot a particular <i>,' then do so.
----------------------------
Scuba Steve,

You might try calling a vendor near your home and getting an R-value, though not imperative; I'm guessing that the earlier #s are close.

Your attic is already pretty warm, and the heat that gets vented, if not cooled, could raise that approximately ten degrees, but you'll know when you get there. Can you increase venting in your attic? Add a low-wattage, durable, long-run axial fan to an attic vent, perhaps?? Maybe on a thermo-switch? Use air-cooled hoods along with your main area's exhaust? How many cfm's on the exhaust fan to the attic, and how many turns does the duct make? (Remember that fans 'pull' better than they push, so let that determine where to place the fan, with any carbon filtration before the fan, under negative pressure).

I should think that if you do that, properly deodorize, perhaps line the garage with a layer of that foil-faced thin garage door insulation that comes in a roll, then insulate the 'box' within your garage with the four inch foam on the walls, and perhaps more on the ceiling of the box, that might bring it down to normal heat levels. It'll be a matter of fine-tuning; more cfms, or not, etc.

Whenever possible, vent through a place that ought to be venting warm air, such as a dryer. In your case, if you can bring your attic temp down some via increased venting, and the attic is normally hot anyway, that might work just fine.
-----------------------------
add'l edit: If you find that your rate of air-flow through your box, and out to your attic is sufficient to keep the garage at its normal temp (as well as a plant-friendly temp inside the box), then you can skip the foil-back garage door insulation altogether. And I'd advise against using any ozone generators at all if possible; they'll harm anything rubber, and lead to a break-down in your vapor barrier too. And the bleach-like, spring day sorta' smell is tell-tale, in my opinion. Stick to carbon scrubbers in the ducting, and perhaps a vaportek unit in the attic if you need to.

moose eater

 

[ScubaSteve]

Thanks for the info I have to wait till the end of October before I can get started on this project. I happen to be able to get my hands on the Elite panels so Thought I would give them a go.

 

[Guest]

You're welcome Scuba Steve.

Tune it as you go. If you observe a weak link in the system, either temps, odors, etc., fix it asap.

For any significant length of ducting, and an air-flow rate of 400-500 cfm., you'll likely want to go with 8" round ducting, or an equivalent in rectangular ducting, and a good, high pressure, centrifugal fan rated for somewhat greater than expected/necessary air-flow And the more 90 degree bends, or whoop-dee-doos in the duct work, the more you'll want to boost the cfm rating on the fan.. If you need to take the duct size down to a 6" for a brief length at a point of exit (i.e., a couple of feet or less), and the rest remains at 8", it shouldn't squelch your flow too badly.

Good luck to you.

moose eater

 

[~Shhh~]

tag

 

[supermanlives]

excellent thread. when i did the room inside a room and left the 5 inch air gap it was overkill. we were worried about possibly heating the concrete. well that was before cooltubes and 8 inch ducting LOL.i have monitored temps and had a friend use a handheld unit on both grows and he cant find anything . fu fly over all you want suckers. great thread and info moose

 

[Lugen]

Handheld units are no where near as powerful as what LEO uses.

Not sure if you are aware of the word "Hubris" - it has to do with when you challenge the gods, they always win. So by saying FU to LEO, it's askign for trouble