Growroom Electricity and Wiring

[madpenguin]

OK. Here are the numbers. A lot of this isn't currently running, but are foreseable additions at some point.

Flower room: (2) 1k hps. SS-1. I haven't checked the actual
numbers for these yet.
(2) inline fans. 228w each
(2) oscillating fans. 47w each

Veg room (2) 1k mh. SS-1.
(2) inline fans. 228w each
(2) oscillating fans. 47w each

Missing voltage in there. You need 2 variables to arrive at the third. I'm sure you've posted it earlier. Did you already have 240v cords and they were multi-tap ballasts? You wanted to run all 3 lights at 240v, or were you still undecided?

I think I am making this harder than it needs to be.

Yea, it sounds like it. If your right next to the panel and it's an unfinished basement plus you have free breaker slots then don't fuck with the supersized 240v/120v combo circuit. No need for it unless there was a good bit of distance involved.

You can run oversized wire for a circuit. In fact, you need to in certain instances, none of which really apply to you. If your ballasts currently run at 120v and you have to buy the cords to make them run at 240v, then I wouldn't fuck with that.

I'd run them at 120v and use a 12/3 multiwire branch circuit attached to a double pole 20A breaker for the the flower room. Use a double gang metal box to affix to the wall. Buy some spec grade 20A receptacles. They are still 120v receptacles but have a little horizontal slot on one of the prong inserts. Cost about 2.49 a piece or something like that. Put the red wire to one receptacle, put the black wire to another separate receptacle. Cut 2 pieces of white conductor at 6 inches a piece and twist them together to the neutral coming from the panel with a pair on linemans pliers. Then wire nut them really good with a red wire nut. One white pigtail to one receptacle, then the other white pigtail to the other receptacle.

That's a multiwire branch circuit. You'll be drawing 10A on both the red and black conductors at 120v. That means the neutral will be carrying 0 amps worth of current back to the panel. It pretty much works like a 240v circuit. If you had 8A on the red wire and 10A on the black wire, then the neutral going back to the panel would be carrying 2A worth of current.

Then run another 20A 12/2 circuit to the veg room. That'll be just a plain old 120v 2 wire circuit. That will leave you room to spare and the wire will stay nice and cool at 10A per leg.

Just my 2 cents anyway. Maybe 25' of 12/3, 25' of 12/2, a single pole 20A breaker, a double pole 20A breaker, a single gang metal handy box with metal receptacle cover, and a double gang metal box with a double receptacle cover. Get some EMT or the gray electrical conduit and some conduit straps and masonry screws and a masonry drill bit a tad smaller than the screws and your in bussiness. Some wire staples. A hammer. A proper pair of wire strippers that will evenly cut the sheath off the cable. Some green grounding screws. White wire nuts. Red wirenuts. 2 NM connectors for the knockouts at the top of your panel.... A 3/4" auger or paddle/spade bit and a drill to run the wire thru your ceiling/floor joists drilled dead center from top to bottom of the joist.

That's about it.. You've really got about the easiest setup to do. Way easier than most of us had to go thru in order to get our grow room running.

 

[madpenguin]

mad penguin - I am running 8/3 wire from my sub to a little grey box water heater timer. The breaker is dp/dt 40 amp. As of right now i have 4kw of ballast kits daisy chained with #12 wire. I want to add two more 1kw ballast. Would I have to remove the #12 and use #10 in order to not start a fire or if i were to continue using #12 for the last two be fine?

Sorry if it is a stupid question, I understand electricity a little bit.

Yes. If your actually daisy chaining them, then you should be running #8 to each receptacle and then wire nut to a #10 pigtail to affix to the receptacle.

There. You guys finally got me to break from my one wire size rule. I suppose you might even use #12 pigtails from the #8 to affix to the receptacles but #10 would be better. If your using spec grade receptacles that have the plates that sandwich down on the wire, I think #10 will fit in there.

I'm not even sure what voltage your running at. You say your using 8/3..... Do you have a mixture of 240v and 120v loads? If so, be careful that you balance the 120v loads so both the red and black wire see about the same current as I was talking about before in the other thread.

 

[cosmiccowboy]

what number wire is on a 400 watt hps ballast?..black and white ones that go to the socket..is it the same as whats on a fluorescent?.....ps,what i need to do is get some seperation between ballast and socket(bulb).wires are too short.

 

[Teeg420]

Yes. If your actually daisy chaining them, then you should be running #8 to each receptacle and then wire nut to a #10 pigtail to affix to the receptacle.

There. You guys finally got me to break from my one wire size rule. I suppose you might even use #12 pigtails from the #8 to affix to the receptacles but #10 would be better. If your using spec grade receptacles that have the plates that sandwich down on the wire, I think #10 will fit in there.

I'm not even sure what voltage your running at. You say your using 8/3..... Do you have a mixture of 240v and 120v loads? If so, be careful that you balance the 120v loads so both the red and black wire see about the same current as I was talking about before in the other thread.

I am running at 240v. I dont know why I grabbed 8/3 when I would have been fine with 8/2.

From the "little grey box" I use 12/2 that is wire nutted to a ballast kit that is also attached to more 12/2 and so forth down the line.

I got you what your saying going to switch out the 12/2 for 10/2. Thanks again Im a little confused with the "pigtail" I will get pics later and post.

 

[chronisseur]

most Home Depot / Rona type stores have actualy breaker panels set up in store (not hot) that you can wire right there in store to get an idea of exactly what to do.. they will show you the proper way... this is a good way to get free help without anyone coming to your house etc. You can even take what youve bought and wire it up right in store even (as much as possible, at least attach everything - or even mock/leaders, say with wires cut 6"" down, but at least attached to devices and done right so you can copy it, etc)

as for ballasts and other equipment, has anyone heard of a grow-shop? take it back where you got it. worst case, the manufacturer will have to service it - you can always have stuff sent to the grow-store and not your home! Also, ask the owner about tradespeople etc. My local guy has a "friend" who owns a world of water and therefore all RO and water equipment, instead of overpriced specialty company stuff, is basically just above costs and from this proper water business and not ordered online etc.
Try askng if there are any electricians who "specialize" in this type of discreet, cash only (etc) type of work.. Penguin - you should advertise at the grow-stores (even leave a pile of business cards and offer the owner a small finders fee on referrals or something? You can charge higher prices too for your professional services and anonymous discretion!! Thats a good business niche to get into you could save people alot of trouble and risks and stress and make good money!!

I always thought there should be a professional / trades directory (carpentry/construction, electrical, consulting) specifically for this industry.. Someday I want to offer (grow-op) setup, consultancy etc (including having certified electricians/tradespeople on staff).. This could be done legally if there was NO mention of mj and no plants present etc (simple discalimers remove liability) - I could advertise it for "tomatoes" or "table herbs" etc and set up rooms, greenhouses etc!
Anyone in the Manitoba area who wants to be a part of this, PM me because Im setting up a website in the next few months - a BUSINESS to BUSINESS (b2b) type of thing that focuses on potential (hydroponic) growers (of anything).. there is service/work money to be made, and also product markup once a solid supplier is found..

Id be like Victor on Weeds!!! wanna get some legal advice first though - wouldnt want to be dragged into a RICO-type law etc.. would have to be only implicit on what its for, and even then.. comments?

 

[madpenguin]

what number wire is on a 400 watt hps ballast?..black and white ones that go to the socket..is it the same as whats on a fluorescent?.....ps,what i need to do is get some seperation between ballast and socket(bulb).wires are too short.

It's probably 16/3. We've been through this quite a few pages back and there is a rather huge flexible cord list here on the sticky. You'll need to go to your electrical supply house. Every town has one unless you live in the middle of bum fuck.

Get 14/3 STW flexible cord. It's rated for 600v. Do not buy type SJ cord. It's only rated for 300v. Go find the flexible cord chart I posted and you'll see how many types of flexible cords there actually are.

 

[madpenguin]

I am running at 240v. I dont know why I grabbed 8/3 when I would have been fine with 8/2.

Yea, you've got a wasted white wire in there but oh well.

From the "little grey box" I use 12/2 that is wire nutted to a ballast kit that is also attached to more 12/2 and so forth down the line.

Yea, see... You don't want to do that. Here is what happens when you daisy chain wire.

40A breaker--->Timer Box--->12/2--->ballast--->12/2--->ballast--->12/2--->ballast--->12/2--->ballast

If these are are 1kw ballasts running at 240v, then the last section of 12/2 will see about 5A. That section of wire is technically fine as long as the ballast operates correctly and doesn't draw more current than what it's supposed to. You can't always be guaranteed that will happen. Equipment goes bad... Things happen.

So that last 12/2 runs see's 5A. The second to last 12/2 run see's 10A, the next one see's 15A and then the fourth one (the one going from the timer to the first ballast) is actually carrying 20A. Your 4A over the continuous load rating and damn close to tripping the breaker as well. Oh wait... Nevermind. Your overfusing your wire with a 40A breaker so it's not gonna trip. That 12/2 cable is going to undergo a Chernobyl meltdown and start a fire. It won't happen right away. Over time, the individual conductor insulation will heat up and cool down over and over again past it's rated temperature. After a month or two or 3 the insulation will start to get really brittle and crack. If your lucky, it will just cause a direct short (which in your case will be crossing phases). Don't know if you've ever cut through a live 240v feed but man is it explosive. Extremely dangerous and you'll get a green blinding flash of about 5,000 degrees F. The breaker will trip due to a couple thousand amps running through the wire for a brief moment and hopefully nothing caught on fire in the process. I'm really not exaggerating here people. If you don't know exactly how electricity works then never assume anything.

If you have a 40A main breaker, then every thing should be rated for 40A.

That;s like having an air compressor rated for 200psi but the hose your using is only rated for 50psi. Your hose will explode/rip-out as soon as you hook it up to the compressor.

There is no difference with wire. 12/2 is only rated to carry 20A intermittent loads. It's only rated to carry 16A continuous loads (on for more than 3 hours). You have the potential to push 40A down a cable (because of the main breaker) that's only rated to carry 16A. Not good.

Your asking for trouble. If you ran 4 separate 12/2's out of your timer box and each one went to feed a separate ballast, then it wouldn't be as bad. It's still not technically legal because you are using a 40A breaker, therefore EVERYTHING in your wiring system needs to be rated for 40A, ALL wire including receptacles.

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse on this thread because I keep saying that. I think whats happening is that people just aren't bothering to read the thread and go straight to posting a question. I understand it's time consuming to read this entire thread, but really, all info has been covered by the time you reach page 8 or so. After that, it's just people asking the same question over and over again....

I got you what your saying going to switch out the 12/2 for 10/2. Thanks again Im a little confused with the "pigtail" I will get pics later and post.

10/2 is still only rated for 30A. Then you'll have 30A rated wire (26A continuous load) on a 40A breaker. Still a no-no and only marginally better than using 12/2....

You would need to daisy chain 8/2 from receptacle to receptacle. That's rated for 40A. Remember that you have a 40A breaker back in the panel?

As far as pigtailing goes, This is it:

You have an incoming feeder cable and an outgoing cable that will be feeding the next receptacle in line. Cut a 6" piece of red and black conductor each and wire nut those to the incoming and outgoing wires. You'll have 3 red's wire nutted together and 3 blacks wire nutted together. Take your only loose red conductor and attach it to one side of the receptacle. Then take your only loose black conductor and attach it to the other side of your receptacle.

Those "loose" or "free" conductors are called pigtails.

Again, I'll repeat myself... If your using a 240v circuit with whatever/2 wire, then the black is a hot and the white is a hot. You MUST use a double pole breaker and attach both the black and white wires to the double pole breaker. There is no neutral in a 240v circuit. In your case, you are transitioning from 8/3 to 12/2. You should have attached the 12/2 black to the incoming 8/3 black, and then attach the 12/2 white to the incoming 8/3 red. You are REQUIRED to "phase tape" the white conductor AT ALL ACCESSIBLE POINTS. This is to tell anyone who gets near that it is no longer a neutral but in fact a 120v live feed. By "phase tape", I mean wrap some black or red electrical tape around the white wire. You don't have to get crazy and tape the whole thing. Just put one or two rings of tape around the conductor.

Again. You guys are finally wearing me down and I'll acquiesce. If you cannot fit #8 conductors onto your receptacle, then try #10. If you still cannot ABSOLUTELY fit #10 onto your receptacle then go down to #12. But that is in violation of the NEC. If you used #12 pigtails, then you are required to yank that 40A breaker and put in a 20A breaker.

Same goes with the receptacle. If your using a 40A breaker, then you have to use 40A rated receptacles. You will not find a standard prong 40A receptacle at Lowes, Home Depot or a mom-and-pop hardware store. You need to hit your local electrical supply house. Again, I've posted all the NEMA receptacle configurations here on this sticky. It's on page 5 I think.

If you refuse, for whatever reason, to follow my advice, then ATLEAST use a spec grade 20A 240v receptacle. By spec grade, I mean they are constructed very sturdy and they use metal plates to sandwich the wire. You still use the screws to tighten down the wire, it's just that you don't wap the wire around the screw. You keep the stripped part of the conductor straight, insert it into the hole right next to the screw, and then tighten down the screw as much as you can.

That's the last time I'll mention wire size and Breaker ratings. If you guys still refuse to read this thread, then I just won't answer anymore questions that have already been covered. Sorry, but I don't really want to be a constant "ask jeeves". Especially with stuff we've already covered.

So yes. You guys have finally wore me down and if you want to use smaller sized pigtails to attach to your receptacles, then go ahead. But you should atleast run the proper size wire to each receptacle, especially if your daisy channing them. If your not daisy chaining them and using "homeruns" instead, then go ahead and use the minimum safe wire gauge that that receptacle is expected to see. It's still wrong but I'm tired of arguing about it.

This stuff really isn't all that hard. It's basically common sense. I can excuse ignorance, but if you know it's common sense, but refuse to do the required minimum safety wiring standards, then your rolling the dice big time. It's only a matter of time till a fire breaks out and your sitting behind bars once they find the remains of a grow op....

We have thousands upon thousands of incarcerated hippy/peaceloving MJ growers sitting in the same cells as child molesters, rapists and murders. That's some fucked up shit. If that's how you want to spend the next couple years of your life, getting fucked up the ass by a guy named Bubba, then go right ahead and wire it how ever you want to.

Not only do you have to worry about having an electrically safe grow op, but you have to keep heat from escaping and, most of all, loose-lips/informants/punk-ass-rats trying to save their own skin by narcing you out.

Don't slip up on ANY of those fronts or your not going to like what comes next.

 

[madpenguin]

Ok I made this recently.I hope its right cause what a bitch to wire really.Hey penguin go ahead and laugh at my little klien tools baby toy hehe....Those on 10 ga dont work too good.I have some bloody knuckles to prove it...I ran it straight through no breaks I just stripped the hots where needed and bent over each screw.The ground came into the first receptacle and onto a green screw.But thats as far as that went. No wire nuts anywhere so far.Does this sound right?I havent tied into the timer yet but I am thinking about leaving most of that 20' or so of MC so I can run those outlets anywhere I need and leave the timer near the main.Thanks for any input guys.nuggler

Since I'm in a preachy squirelly mood, while I like your setup, it's still in violation of the nec.... "singleplex" receptacles can only be used once on one homerun. If you have more than one receptacle on a circuit, then you have to use the duplex receptacles.....

I wonder if that will still apply with non-premise wiring.... Maybe not. Maybe so. Either way, I'm just sayin'...

This is why when you have a dedicated 20A branch circuit feeding a fridge in your kitchen, you use the singleplex type of receptacle. If you were to continue on to feed something else off that circuit, then you would have to yank the single receptacle and replace it with a duplex. Anything downstream also has to have a duplex receptacle...

singleplex receptacles identify a dedicated homerun, at least they should... You don't HAVE to use a single receptacle on a dedicated run, but if you do, there can be nothing else on that circuit besides that one single receptacle. In your case, you've got 3 other receptacles after the first one, so they would all need to be duplex receptacles.

 

[Teeg420]

Mad penguin thank you so much for advice. I just got off the phone with my friend who is a sparky and said the same thing. He said you dont change wire size and that it needs t be consistent. He recommended that I get contactors instead of the water heater timer because something about them not being designed for the application im using it for. Gonna change out the 12/2 and switch it out for the 8/3 I already own.

 

[mr-natural78]

OK. I put this together last night and hope to hook it up tonight or tomorrow.

Sorry for the crappy cellphone pic. I still need to pick up some conduit and cut a two foot piece or so. I put a 90 degree connector on the left side of the timer for the conduit so none of the romex will be exposed. You can kinda see it in the picture. It is ran using only 10/2. I have a single pole 30a breaker. As far as I know, the only problem at the moment is the 20a recepticles. I couldn't find 30a. I need to check some electrical supply places this week. My plan is to go ahead and hook it up to my flower room now.....that will atleast get me off extention cords. Then, this weekend I am going to pick up another timer, a few more boxes, and some 30a recepticles. If I can't find them at a local electrical place I will order them online. Then, once I get that stuff I will put together another one. Then I will transfer this one, with the 20a recepticles, to my veg area. It will be a 20a circuit but I'm still going to use 10/2 incase I ever want to add another light and up it to 30a. The new 30a one I will then put in the flower area. The way I see it, getting the lights on their own circuit and off extention cords is the main priority. I know this isn't 100% right, but it has gotta be safer then the way it is now and it will only be hooked up like this for a week. Does this look ok? Oh, I just saw the previous post about simplex recepticles. I didn't know that. I don't think it has been posted here yet. I will change them for duplex today before I hook it up.

 

[madpenguin]

Oh, I just saw the previous post about simplex recepticles. I didn't know that. I don't think it has been posted here yet. I will change them for duplex today before I hook it up.

Really, don't worry about it. TBH, I'm not entirely sure what the reasoning for that article is. I would have used the single ones anyway too. Looks nicer. Just make sure you wire nut everything really well.

 

[madpenguin]

BTW, your new plan is sound and it seems as if you know what to do and are on the right track. Let us know how everything works.

 

[madpenguin]

Mad penguin thank you so much for advice. I just got off the phone with my friend who is a sparky and said the same thing. He said you dont change wire size and that it needs t be consistent. He recommended that I get contactors instead of the water heater timer because something about them not being designed for the application im using it for. Gonna change out the 12/2 and switch it out for the 8/3 I already own.

Your going to have a hard time getting #8 wire on any receptacle except a Nema 6-50R.... Look at the 6-50P designation on page 5 and see if it matches your ballast plug. If not, atleast use a 6-30R. And if #8 won't fit on a 6-30R then pigtail to a #10 for the connection. Again, that's not legal or safe but I'm not going to argue about it anymore....

 

[madpenguin]

@ mr-natural78, a NEMA 5-30R is what you would want. Double check to make sure your ballast plug will fit it.

 

[mr-natural78]

You can run oversized wire for a circuit. In fact, you need to in certain instances, none of which really apply to you. If your ballasts currently run at 120v and you have to buy the cords to make them run at 240v, then I wouldn't fuck with that.

I'd run them at 120v and use a 12/3 multiwire branch circuit attached to a double pole 20A breaker for the the flower room. Use a double gang metal box to affix to the wall. Buy some spec grade 20A receptacles. They are still 120v receptacles but have a little horizontal slot on one of the prong inserts. Cost about 2.49 a piece or something like that. Put the red wire to one receptacle, put the black wire to another separate receptacle. Cut 2 pieces of white conductor at 6 inches a piece and twist them together to the neutral coming from the panel with a pair on linemans pliers. Then wire nut them really good with a red wire nut. One white pigtail to one receptacle, then the other white pigtail to the other receptacle.

That's a multiwire branch circuit. You'll be drawing 10A on both the red and black conductors at 120v. That means the neutral will be carrying 0 amps worth of current back to the panel. It pretty much works like a 240v circuit. If you had 8A on the red wire and 10A on the black wire, then the neutral going back to the panel would be carrying 2A worth of current.

Then run another 20A 12/2 circuit to the veg room. That'll be just a plain old 120v 2 wire circuit. That will leave you room to spare and the wire will stay nice and cool at 10A per leg.

Just my 2 cents anyway. Maybe 25' of 12/3, 25' of 12/2, a single pole 20A breaker, a double pole 20A breaker, a single gang metal handy box with metal receptacle cover, and a double gang metal box with a double receptacle cover. Get some EMT or the gray electrical conduit and some conduit straps and masonry screws and a masonry drill bit a tad smaller than the screws and your in bussiness. Some wire staples. A hammer. A proper pair of wire strippers that will evenly cut the sheath off the cable. Some green grounding screws. White wire nuts. Red wirenuts. 2 NM connectors for the knockouts at the top of your panel.... A 3/4" auger or paddle/spade bit and a drill to run the wire thru your ceiling/floor joists drilled dead center from top to bottom of the joist.

That's about it.. You've really got about the easiest setup to do. Way easier than most of us had to go thru in order to get our grow room running.

OK. Just out of curiousity and maybe for future reference. How would I do this with an Intermatic timer and have two recepticles timed and two constant?

 

[mr-natural78]

@ mr-natural78, a NEMA 5-30R is what you would want. Double check to make sure your ballast plug will fit it.

Ok. Thank you. That is what I thought. I couldn't find one that I could actually see to be sure.

 

[madpenguin]

OK. Just out of curiousity and maybe for future reference. How would I do this with an Intermatic timer and have two recepticles timed and two constant?

Well, speaking on 120v loads since we are talking about a MWBC, you would hook the red up to the tmer and just wire nut the black to pass through the timer to feed 24/7 receptacles.

My idea for a multiwire branch circuit was to have the red feed a 120v 1kw ballast and the black feed a 120v 1kw ballast.

Doesn't matter tho. A MWBC is perfectly safe even if only one of the hots is in use. The neutral will always carry the imbalance of the load between the two hot wires and since the neutral is sized the same as the hot's, it will never be overloaded when using one hot. If you use both hot's, then the neutral will see less than the load of the wire with the most draw, or the imbalance of the load between both red and black.

I'm still assuming your running at 120v. I've been getting so many questions and follow up questions over X amount of time that I cant keep all this stuff straight anymore...

I suppose the important question is:

What's running on the timed receptacles and what's running on the always hot receptacles. Just don't over load your wire.

Obviously, you don't want to put 2 - 1kw 120v ballasts on one hot leg of a 12/3 MWBC..... A #12 can only carry 16A continuous. You would have to use the entire MWBC just for your lights if they were 2 - 120v 1kw lights. That means you would need to run another circuit for the always hots.

 

[madpenguin]

Mad penguin thank you so much for advice. I just got off the phone with my friend who is a sparky and said the same thing. He said you dont change wire size and that it needs t be consistent. He recommended that I get contactors instead of the water heater timer because something about them not being designed for the application im using it for.

He's got a point about the water heater timer and I never really gave it much thought. Water heaters are purely resistive loads. If your using several inductive load ballasts you can get harmonic resonance associated with a non-linear load.

Makes me wonder if those things would stand the test of time. Obviously, there are hundreds of people here on this forum using them, but.... Your friend has a point.

I'm not sure if non-linear loads was his point but that's my train of thought.

 

[mr-natural78]

Well, speaking on 120v loads since we are talking about a MWBC, you would hook the red up to the tmer and just wire nut the black to pass through the timer to feed 24/7 receptacles.

My idea for a multiwire branch circuit was to have the red feed a 120v 1kw ballast and the black feed a 120v 1kw ballast.

Doesn't matter tho. A MWBC is perfectly safe even if only one of the hots is in use. The neutral will always carry the imbalance of the load between the two hot wires and since the neutral is sized the same as the hot's, it will never be overloaded when using one hot. If you use both hot's, then the neutral will see less than the load of the wire with the most draw, or the imbalance of the load between both red and black.

I'm still assuming your running at 120v. I've been getting so many questions and follow up questions over X amount of time that I cant keep all this stuff straight anymore...

I suppose the important question is:

What's running on the timed receptacles and what's running on the always hot receptacles. Just don't over load your wire.

Obviously, you don't want to put 2 - 1kw 120v ballasts on one hot leg of a 12/3 MWBC..... A #12 can only carry 16A continuous. You would have to use the entire MWBC just for your lights if they were 2 - 120v 1kw lights. That means you would need to run another circuit for the always hots.

Ok. This is purely out of curiousity and to get a better understanding of electrical...and maybe for the benifit of someone reading this thread later on. If I were to use an intermatic T103 double pole, single throw timer:

Could I run a MWBC like you explained and then have my line out off terminals 2 and 4 going to two recepticles, these would be timed, and then split the two hots as you said with one going to one recepticle and one going to the other? And then have a second line out that would be wired to terminals 1 and 3, the incoming lines to the timer, that would then also go to two recepticles with the two hots split between the two recepticles as well. I guess you could do the same thing with pigtails as well. Pigtail both the incoming hots so that you have one pigtail from each hot going to the incoming terminals on the timer and the other one just flowing through to recepticles. I think both ways would work safely. Am I right? Basically, as far as the timer and main panel goes, the circuit would be seen as 240v. But it would be split between the recepticles and be 120v. I think that would be safe and possible and it would also balance the loads I think. I also think that would work so that two recepticles are timed and two are constant. What I don't get with a set up like this is how to determine wire size and breaker size. I guess essentially it is a 240v circuit, but the appliances would be running on 120v...so would you size everything according to the amp draw for a 240v circuit then? Or for a 120v circuit?

edit: I just noticed that the out going line on the timer wiring diagram is only 2 wire. I, or anyone else, would have to use three wire, like the incoming line, for the outgoing lines as well to keep the nuetral. I believe if you wire nutted the incoming nuetral and the outgoing nuetrals together with a pigtail going to the nuetral terminal on the timer then everything would work fine. Am I understanding all of this correctly or is my logic ass backwards? If I have this right then this will probably be my last question.

 

[mr-natural78]

I'm still assuming your running at 120v. I've been getting so many questions and follow up questions over X amount of time that I cant keep all this stuff straight anymore...

Yes, I'm running at 120v. I've been reading this thread over and over. I think the needed info to most any question is already here in the first 10 pages or so. I have read them numerous times. I just have so many questions because I can be an impatient person and I don't want to go off with only a half-assed understanding of this. As I start to wrap my head around it more and more I just like to have conformation that I am reading and understanding everything correctly. So, no hurry or anything. I've got the set up I made installed and my lights are running on it now. I think it is much safer now that my lights aren't drawing through a 16g extention cord. That cord was getting pretty warm. I still have more wiring to do for my planned upgrades, but that won't be for a few weeks or a month or so. Like I said, I'm just asking questions now to confirm that I am understanding this correctly for future use. I'd hate to go off half cocked thinking that I've got this down and then screw something up and burn my house down because I misunderstood something and wired it wrong.