Growroom Electricity and Wiring

[madpenguin]

Be careful with those orange extension cords. For that matter, be careful with any extension cord. If you can help it, punch in your new receptacles right where you'll need them so there is no need to use any kind of extension cord.

ok. The main breaker doesn't say anything on it. The inside of the panel door says the main is 200a.

If you have a 200A service then your fine. Run at 240. Run at 120. Whatever you want.

After looking at my panel more, I have more questions. Do all 240v circuits use double pole breakers?

Yep. Atleast they should. If you get some hack working in your panel, it's possible that 2 single pole breakers that are right above and below each other could feed a 240v load. In order to make sure, you basically have to take the front cover off and really inspect the wiring going to all breakers. If you see a red wire go into a single pole and then a black wire thats part of the same cable going into another single pole, then you have problems and there was a hack screwing around inside your panel. For that matter, if you have all single pole breakers, then there should be nothing but black wires affixed to said breakers. If you see anything other than black wires attached to single pole breakers, then something illegal and very possibly unsafe is going on.

All the ones in mine are single pole. All are 20a except for two. Those two are 40a single pole.

That confuses me. If your up to it, you should get a flash light and then trip your main breaker. Then take the front cover off and tell me whats going on with those 2 single pole 40A breakers....... Is your stove electric? Is your hot water heater electric? Do you have any 240v appliances that you are aware of?

All of our appliances have regular plugs with ground as well. Even the dryer and stove. Nothing uses the 240a type receptacles that you see a lot of dryers and such. In this home we have the well pump and it is on one circuit. The furnace is on one circuit...the hot water heater may be on that circuit as well, but I'm not sure. We just have a basic kitchen with stove, frig, microwave.

If you can manage, A high res picture of the inside of your panel from top to bottom would help quite a bit. I find it odd that your house has no 240v loads what-so-ever. TBH, I don't think I've ever seen a 120v dryer but I suppose that doesn't mean they don't exist. Your stove could be gas but with 120v functions like a clock and light. Your hotwater tank could be gas..... But shit, for a 200A service, I'd expect to see some 240v loads.... Something sounds fishy with your panel.

The basement has two other circuits. My grow is on the back circuit. The front circuit has a water softener plugged into it and a sump pump and basement watchdog battery back up sytem plugged into it. I can't really think of anything else. Everything else is just tv's and stuff like that. Oh, one other thing, in case it matters. In my first post I said my garden was in the basement about 15ft from the panel. It would probably take 25ft of wire to run it correctly to where I will mount a timer and receptacles. I want to be sure that doesn't change anything. I'm going to get a mechanical timer like what was posted here before. I saw them at the big box home stores. The ones that need to be hard wired. I don't think that short of a distance makes much difference really...but wanted to be sure. I don't think I need to take into account the distance of wire until I get up over 100ft. Like I said, just want to be sure.

The short distance you are working with doesn't matter a bit. You are correct with the "100 foot rule". Generally, for every hundred feet of wire you run, you need to increase the wire gauge by one size (yet retain the same breaker amperage that you need to serve the load).

 

[rooted]

Ugh.... You ran premise wiring to a portable subpanel?

Say it aint' so. Now I really am pickin' on ya'....

Or was that a dedicated old-worked circuit from the main panel?

i only swapped out the old dryer outlet for the new 4 prong and tested that. i haven't even put one piece of the sub together because i want to have everything before i start

the only 30a rated outlet i can find is the big 3 prong dryer outlets which means i have to also buy 4 dryer plugs and rewire all my ballast cords....not happening....on to plan d or e i can't remember

so with that ^ it seems like the safest thing to do is run two circuits/relays.....so finally i've reached a conclusion at least!!

gotta get to home depot before they close, tonight this thing will be wired up!

 

[madpenguin]

Forget Lowes and Home Depot. They specialize in NOTHING and will not have what you are looking for. Granger is one place to go. They specialize in Square D/QO crap if that's the type of panel you have. There is another place that I go to when I need cuttler-hammer related stuff. The electrical supply houses are a front service desk with a warehouse in back. They carry every kind of cable and conductor imaginable along with every kind of receptacle imaginable.

They are also a good place to get new bulbs if you use the standard sylvania type HPS and MH bulbs.

Always go to your local electric supply house. In my town we have about 4 different "companies" and each company has multiple retail stores.

These are the places that electrical contractors have an account with and get all their crap from. They will have anything and everything you need.

 

[Danknuggler]

Ok I made this recently.I hope its right cause what a bitch to wire really.Hey penguin go ahead and laugh at my little klien tools baby toy hehe....Those on 10 ga dont work too good.I have some bloody knuckles to prove it...I ran it straight through no breaks I just stripped the hots where needed and bent over each screw.The ground came into the first receptacle and onto a green screw.But thats as far as that went. No wire nuts anywhere so far.Does this sound right?I havent tied into the timer yet but I am thinking about leaving most of that 20' or so of MC so I can run those outlets anywhere I need and leave the timer near the main.Thanks for any input guys.nuggler

 

[mr-natural78]

Be careful with those orange extension cords. For that matter, be careful with any extension cord. If you can help it, punch in your new receptacles right where you'll need them so there is no need to use any kind of extension cord.

That is the plan.

Yep. Atleast they should. If you get some hack working in your panel, it's possible that 2 single pole breakers that are right above and below each other could feed a 240v load. In order to make sure, you basically have to take the front cover off and really inspect the wiring going to all breakers. If you see a red wire go into a single pole and then a black wire thats part of the same cable going into another single pole, then you have problems and there was a hack screwing around inside your panel. For that matter, if you have all single pole breakers, then there should be nothing but black wires affixed to said breakers. If you see anything other than black wires attached to single pole breakers, then something illegal and very possibly unsafe is going on.

They are right above and below each other. I will take the cover off and check out the wiring tonight.

That confuses me. If your up to it, you should get a flash light and then trip your main breaker. Then take the front cover off and tell me whats going on with those 2 single pole 40A breakers....... Is your stove electric? Is your hot water heater electric? Do you have any 240v appliances that you are aware of?.

Our stuff is gas. Stove probably uses 120v for the clock and timer. It also has an electric ignitor instead of a pilot light. I traces the 8g wire throught the basement, it's the largest wire coming from the panel. I couldn't follow it all the way but it looks like it goes into the garage, which is where the washer and dryer is. I think someone at sometime was probably screwing with it and I bet those two 40a breakers are connected for a 240v circuit. I will check it out after work tonight.

If you can manage, A high res picture of the inside of your panel from top to bottom would help quite a bit. I find it odd that your house has no 240v loads what-so-ever. TBH, I don't think I've ever seen a 120v dryer but I suppose that doesn't mean they don't exist. Your stove could be gas but with 120v functions like a clock and light. Your hotwater tank could be gas..... But shit, for a 200A service, I'd expect to see some 240v loads.... Something sounds fishy with your panel.

It is a good sized house, but 200a seems like a lot to me. Is that normal? I thought the two 40a single poles seemed odd...that's why I wanted to ask about it. I will check it out. I don't have a good camera I can take pics with though. Just my cell.

 

[rooted]

penguin i was trying to find a 30a receptacle to fit a standard 240 plug, not the big dryer size.....don't think that exists! but i learn something new every day makes sense to me now but it seemed logical before

i don't need 4k immediately, so for now i've wired it for 2 lights. i will add another relay/timer when i have the veg to fill that area up.......

this will eventually be a 4k flip, but with two timers instead, allowing me to cut the days shorter if needed, rather than being stuck to 12/12.....this was really the deciding factor for wiring two relays. at that time i'll upgrade the circuits as well

grabbed a few odds and ends today so i will definitely have this thing hung and lit tonight! i know, i have been telling myself that for a week now

 

[madpenguin]

Ok I made this recently.I hope its right cause what a bitch to wire really.Hey penguin go ahead and laugh at my little klien tools baby toy hehe....Those on 10 ga dont work too good.I have some bloody knuckles to prove it...I ran it straight through no breaks I just stripped the hots where needed and bent over each screw.The ground came into the first receptacle and onto a green screw.But thats as far as that went. No wire nuts anywhere so far.Does this sound right?I havent tied into the timer yet but I am thinking about leaving most of that 20' or so of MC so I can run those outlets anywhere I need and leave the timer near the main.Thanks for any input guys.nuggler

No, it looks good. I'm sure those handy boxes might get just a tad flimsy as they get further out but as long as they are all connected with metal NM connectors, then that's fine.

All those metal boxes are required to be grounded. If you haven't, try to make a short pigtail in every box and use a green grounding screw to affix the grounding pigtail to the back of the box. The other end would need to be connected to the receptacle grounding screw and the grounding conductor of the MC cable.

If you've really tightened down the washer on each of those NM connectors and all 4 handy boxes are "electrically continuous", then you just need to ground one of the boxes (and the rest will automatically be grounded).

It looks good. I like to see the MC cable when it's just going to be laying around. MUCH better than using romex, all though that stuff can get damaged fairly easy as well so keep an eye on it.

When working with all metal boxes and plates, take those little plastic washers of the receptacle mounting screws. Whether you do it or not, the yoke of each receptacle is going to naturally ground each box out any way. You should use a pigtail anyway affixed to the back of the box so you don't have to rely on the receptacle yoke (metal strap along the back) for a grounding means.

 

[mr-natural78]

ok. I haven't been able to check the panel to see what is up with the two 40a single poles. I have been doing a ton of reading on electrical. I am starting to get an ideo of how I want to set this up. I think I want to run a 240 circuit from my main panel to my grow area. I want just one 240 recepticle on this circuit. This is the only part of my system I want to be premise wiring. I'd then like to use a dryer cord or similar for power coming into one of the Intermatic WH40 timers like what was posted in this thread. If possible, I'd like to feed three 1K lights, with the option to add a fourth at a later date from this timer. Two lights that will be in a flowering room and the other one (possibly a second in the future) in the veg room. I'd also like to feed a couple of 120 receptacles in each room that aren't timed. The two 240 recepticles and two 120 receptacles for the flower room could be mounted directly to the timer or just below it with a very short run. The other pair of 240 and pair of 120 recepticles for the veg room would need about 12' of run from the timer to reach where I need them. I plan to use MC for this longer run...if this is even doable anyway. How is the best way to go about doing this? Can I run this on one 240v circuit and use xx/3 wire so that it could power 240 and 120 recepticles? Is that even possible? I'd like to do this as cheap as possible but still use the correct wiring, receptacles, and breaker for my power usage. Can I do all this from one 240 circuit from my main fuse box? I'm thinking that I may need to incorporate a sub-panel in my portable system to accomodate different 240 and 120 circuits, but I don't know. When you explained 10/3 and 10/2 to me you said that the 10/3 would be used by a stove or something that requires 240 for the heating element and 120 for clocks, timers, etc. So, is it possible to do this without a sub panel if I make my 240 circuit from the main large enough and use xx/3 romax and MC? What size wiring and breaker would I need if this is possible? The only thing that would be plugged into the 120 would be a couple ocillating fans and a coulple of 8" inline fans. Thanks for your help man. This thread is one of the most valuable on this entire site. I'm sure you have stopped many growers from burning their house down.

 

[mr-natural78]

Basicaly, what danknuggler made, it gave me the idea, but with a couple of changes. Two 240 receptacles and two 120 r. at the timer and two 240 r. and two 120r about 12' away. The 240 timed and the 120 constant. Then a dryer cord/plug for the power coming into the timer. Is there a way to do this, SAFE way anyway, without a sub p. ?

 

[madpenguin]

ok. I haven't been able to check the panel to see what is up with the two 40a single poles. I have been doing a ton of reading on electrical. I am starting to get an ideo of how I want to set this up. I think I want to run a 240 circuit from my main panel to my grow area. I want just one 240 recepticle on this circuit. This is the only part of my system I want to be premise wiring. I'd then like to use a dryer cord or similar for power coming into one of the Intermatic WH40 timers like what was posted in this thread. If possible, I'd like to feed three 1K lights, with the option to add a fourth at a later date from this timer. Two lights that will be in a flowering room and the other one (possibly a second in the future) in the veg room. I'd also like to feed a couple of 120 receptacles in each room that aren't timed. The two 240 recepticles and two 120 receptacles for the flower room could be mounted directly to the timer or just below it with a very short run. The other pair of 240 and pair of 120 recepticles for the veg room would need about 12' of run from the timer to reach where I need them. I plan to use MC for this longer run...if this is even doable anyway. How is the best way to go about doing this? Can I run this on one 240v circuit and use xx/3 wire so that it could power 240 and 120 recepticles? Is that even possible? I'd like to do this as cheap as possible but still use the correct wiring, receptacles, and breaker for my power usage. Can I do all this from one 240 circuit from my main fuse box? I'm thinking that I may need to incorporate a sub-panel in my portable system to accomodate different 240 and 120 circuits, but I don't know. When you explained 10/3 and 10/2 to me you said that the 10/3 would be used by a stove or something that requires 240 for the heating element and 120 for clocks, timers, etc. So, is it possible to do this without a sub panel if I make my 240 circuit from the main large enough and use xx/3 romax and MC? What size wiring and breaker would I need if this is possible? The only thing that would be plugged into the 120 would be a couple ocillating fans and a coulple of 8" inline fans. Thanks for your help man. This thread is one of the most valuable on this entire site. I'm sure you have stopped many growers from burning their house down.

Oi... That's one long sentence.... Hard on the brain and eyes.

Didn't completely feel like hitting the forum today but didn't want you to think I was ignoring you either.

Yea, You could do it on one circuit. It would take some careful balancing of the 120v circuits as far as load goes. Basically, you would be feeding your 240's first with whatever/3. Obviously you don't use the white neutral there. Just wire nut it really good and continue it on down the run until you get to your 120v loads.

You would want to run whatever/3 the entire way, even to your 120v receptacles. Once your past the 240v stuff, the circuit now becomes a multiwire branch circuit. It's IMPERATIVE that you wire nut everything with a pig tail and then run that pigtail to the receptacle for the 120v loads.. I'm especially talking about the neutral.

Its been explained why on this thread a couple times.

That's a tricky circuit to run but you can still do it safely. Look at the nameplate ratings of all your equipment. Don't use ohms law by using a "1000w bulb". Find out your total amps at 240v and your total amps at 120v. This includes any future expansion.

Once you have those values, you'll know what wire size to use.

Doesn't matter if the 240's are first or last in the circuit, you can mix and match 240's and 120's at one location and have 240's and 120's 12 feet down the road. The key thing is to balance your 120v loads evenly across both the red and black hot wires.

As far as the breaker feeding all of that is concerned, it just see's one giant load at 240v.....

Find all the actual manufactures printing about voltage and amperage/wattage for each and every device you plan to use and list them all here.

I'll buy some handy boxes and a few feet of 14/3 MC cable along with some 240 and 120 receptacles. Just make a mini mockup of what you want to do pictures and all. Will give me something to do on these cold and dreary workless days.

 

[madpenguin]

Ooooo... Is that the MC cable that has a black outer plastic sheathing on it? I believe rated for direct burial? Or at least to be in contact with concrete and damp locations?

Nice stuff if so. I like working with it. Even tho it's way overkill in our situations, it's still cool to use.

 

[Danknuggler]

cool thanks.I'm glad it looks good.The nm connectors are pretty tight but now that you say it I will tighten em real good.The mc cable has a clear plastic sheathing so dont know if its the direct burial but I will need some of that kind soon to run 40amps to a shed growroom.Thanks for the help.nuggler

 

[cosmiccowboy]

with a surge ptotector,.do you still need a ground wire for yer ballast?

 

[Bozo]

Yes you always need a ground

 

[cosmiccowboy]

Yes you always need a ground

i bought a ballast repair kit,put it all together and it works fine but dont have any place to connect ground wire that is on the power cord that i put on it..any suggestions?

 

[madpenguin]

Sometimes a ballast will fail to ignite if it's not properly grounded. I think you'll see this more often with fluorescent ballasts than with HID, but yea, you should always ground everything.

Take the ground wire and attach it to the ballast outer casing from the inside. The actual ballast is attached to the outer shell. As long as you ground the metal frame, you'll have a proper ground.

Get a green grounding screw. I think they are 10/32 for purposes of pre-drilling a hole for it:

Or you can buy a grounding lead:

The one one the left is solid #12 copper and the one on the right is stranded copper. Wire nut one of those to your grounding conductor in your ballast cord coming from the receptacle and attach the other end to the metal casing of the ballast.

Again, don't attach it to the ballast it's self (as in drill a hole in the ballast), but attach it to the frame somewhere to which the ballast is bolted to. That will ground the outer casing along with the shell of the ballast.

 

[madpenguin]

cool thanks.I'm glad it looks good.The nm connectors are pretty tight but now that you say it I will tighten em real good.The mc cable has a clear plastic sheathing so dont know if its the direct burial but I will need some of that kind soon to run 40amps to a shed growroom.Thanks for the help.nuggler

I've got a table floating around here for burial depths. You'd make me a happy penguin if you were to check it out and adhere to it when running that circuit.....

I wouldn't waste your money on that MC cable either.

http://www.amazon.com/SOUTHWIRE-COMPANY-20858702-125-Cable/dp/B000BQS726

I'm sure you can find it in smaller spools as well.

I'm trying to remember where in the NEC it talks about OC protection and the number of circuits you are allowed to run to an exterior building before you are required to use a sub.... I'll look for it later if i remember.

You can only run one circuit to a detached structure. It can be a multiwire circuit, so technnically, you can have 2 circuits. Eh.... There is a 60A rule in there as well. Shit. I'll find it just because it's going to bug the hell out of me now. I should know where that is.....

 

[Teeg420]

mad penguin - I am running 8/3 wire from my sub to a little grey box water heater timer. The breaker is dp/dt 40 amp. As of right now i have 4kw of ballast kits daisy chained with #12 wire. I want to add two more 1kw ballast. Would I have to remove the #12 and use #10 in order to not start a fire or if i were to continue using #12 for the last two be fine?

Sorry if it is a stupid question, I understand electricity a little bit.

 

[mr-natural78]

Find all the actual manufactures printing about voltage and amperage/wattage for each and every device you plan to use and list them all here.

OK. Here are the numbers. A lot of this isn't currently running, but are foreseable additions at some point.

Flower room: (2) 1k hps. SS-1. I haven't checked the actual
numbers for these yet.
(2) inline fans. 228w each
(2) oscillating fans. 47w each

Veg room (2) 1k mh. SS-1.
(2) inline fans. 228w each
(2) oscillating fans. 47w each

This is the most that I will be running. I grow in soil but still keep a resevoir for water. I have air going to it constantly. I also have a small submersible pump that I use to pump water to my plants when I water. I will put those on the circuit that is already there.

I'll buy some handy boxes and a few feet of 14/3 MC cable along with some 240 and 120 receptacles. Just make a mini mockup of what you want to do pictures and all. Will give me something to do on these cold and dreary workless days.

I think I am making this harder than it needs to be. If you would like to put this together for the sake of it being here in the thread for others to see how to run a MWBC then great. If you are just doing it to show me then don't worry about it dude. You spend enough time helping people out answering questions here. I think I'm making this harder than it needs to be anyway. Wiring up all those recepticles seems more complicated than it needs to be. My area is in an unfinished basement. It is seriously spitting distance from the main panel. My two areas are just enclosed with tarps and panda film. I have a ton of spaces open in the main panel. It seems the easiest and simplest way to do what I want is to just run two circuits to each area from the main panel. I can run the wire in the joists and use some conduit when I go down to put in my recepticles. Then mount them on the wall with masonry screws. That's how the existing ones in the basement are. If I run a 120v 30a with 10/2 to each room then each of those would be able to handle two 1K lights. Then I could run another 120v 15a or 20a (haven't added up my fans yet to see which this one needs to be) circuit to each room for the fans. I know running a circuit with wire that is too small is a bad thing....but what about using oversided wire? I don't think there is anything wrong with that is there? Can I run a 15a or 20a circuit with 10/2? That way I just need to buy one size wire since that is what I need for the lights and if I ever want to upgrade then it would be that much easier. Also, what 30a 12v recepticle do I need so that I will be able to plug my ballasts into it without changing cords. I looked at the page showing recepticles/plugs and I think I need NEMA 5-30R...but I'm not sure. I tried to find one of these so I could look at it and see but can't find it locally. I'll have to order it I think so I want to be sure this is what I need. This just seems to be the easiest and probably best way to do this. I have no idea why I wanted to make it more complicated than it needed to be.

edit: I just added up the fans and I don't even need to run a seperate circuit to each room for them. I can put them on the same circuit and still have plenty of room to add to if need be.

 

[cosmiccowboy]

Sometimes a ballast will fail to ignite if it's not properly grounded. I think you'll see this more often with fluorescent ballasts than with HID, but yea, you should always ground everything.

Take the ground wire and attach it to the ballast outer casing from the inside. The actual ballast is attached to the outer shell. As long as you ground the metal frame, you'll have a proper ground.

Get a green grounding screw. I think they are 10/32 for purposes of pre-drilling a hole for it:

Or you can buy a grounding lead:

The one one the left is solid #12 copper and the one on the right is stranded copper. Wire nut one of those to your grounding conductor in your ballast cord coming from the receptacle and attach the other end to the metal casing of the ballast.

Again, don't attach it to the ballast it's self (as in drill a hole in the ballast), but attach it to the frame somewhere to which the ballast is bolted to. That will ground the outer casing along with the shell of the ballast.

thanks a lot.