Genetic link between Haze C potency and seed longevity?

[HAZENACIOUS]

Something I noticed hazenacious is usually with well made seed made with good parents....if the seeds arnt keept in the best conditions for one reson or another or through the passing of time an for example 10-15 years later these are tried but have a very poor germination rate...wat ive found in about 75% of cases is the strongest usually survive....ther are a few other examples of this with haze eg leet was gifted seed by shanti that had been made by nevil... 97 nh....an guess wat happened one awsome plant popped up....an most people buying nh have been chasing it ever since....soma popped a pack of 89 G13 x hzC...only one came out....same again one awsome male came through....created some devestating hybrids....seen it happen with other strains too....12-15 year old sensi star x big bud...only one seed survived....the plant was potent an just caked in resin an would easily give any hybrid tody a run for its money....something els is we had mixture of 50 seeds in a propergator about 5year old seed an the temperature was set to high....most fried an didnt pop...but about 10 survived....all 50 seeds were repurchesed replaced an regerminated with fresh seed of all the same strains.....later on these 50 along with the 10 surviving seeds were all flowered out together....turned out about 8 of the 10 survivors gave the best an strongest phenotypes in each of ther strains....an i found a couple of very special plants I kick myself still for losing in that batch... so maybe the saying "only the strongest survive " seems very probable.

Hi Darkstorm,
Yes,

I believe some refer to it as natural selection. They say time is the greatest of all adversaries.



An analogy: a mechanic said to me once that most cars if they sit for long, seals dry up and crack, gravity causes parts to stick over time, and they won't start on their own, but some cars are designed so perfectly that they can sit for years and change the battery, they still start without a problem.


It takes a certain perfection of overall design to withstand the ravages of time.
One part well designed isn't enough, the whole thing must be well designed.


But with The Holland Seedbank derived haze it may well go above and beyond this I feel, this is part of it, but there is also the fact that haze C was sprouted from very old seeds, whereas the stuff that it was crossed to was not. This alone does not necessarily suggest a genetic link, but what I have witnessed over the years does. Not only do old haze C hybrid seed that are the few surviving sprouts of many tend to be stronger in all regards as you are suggesting, they also tend to be hazier in my experience.

 

[ojd]

that is very interesting that maybe the strongest seed survives the longest but still dont think it changes potency just that the strongest or some of the best last the longest.

Ive never freezed seeds in my life as same reason my seed spots can change and would need to thawed and refreezed and thats a dangerous game to play.

 

[HAZENACIOUS]

that is very interesting that maybe the strongest seed survives the longest but still dont think it changes potency just that the strongest or some of the best last the longest.

Ive never freezed seeds in my life as same reason my seed spots can change and would need to thawed and refreezed and thats a dangerous game to play.

Hi OJD,
Yeah, I agree, I think it's good to air them out once in a while, and low humidity is better. And it helps to have at a constant temperature, lower end of room temp is best.
The longest lived crop seeds in history were stored in an open urn in an Egyptian tomb and sprouted after over a thousand years.



I'm not saying older seeds are magically potent. Specifically I am discussing "haze C potency". I am saying that the seed longevity gene within haze C hybrid stock tends to be tied to the haze phenotypes within that stock, naturally haze potency is as well. This is a secret, by the way, it took me decades to figure it out. I'm letting the cat out of the bag.

 

[ojd]

Im still doubt this to be true but what i will say Neville did alot more work with the C Haze and C5 than the A lines, so we see alot more of it around and in the old Dutch Haze's and alot more has survived from old days and Millions of seeds were made back then and sent all over the world so a 1/3 of all Haze out there or more probably are descendants of the C and C5 plant and yes they had some amazing and potent plants.

You have any pics of the grail project seeds you run and used, Males or Females ?

 

[Benny106]

Hi BeAn,
That is good to know, I'm not surprised, thank you for the information.
I have a question:
Did you grow out any of those old pips lines when they were fresh young seeds?

I have grown some before but didnt keep notes on specifics, but i notice sporadic germination as a trait in some new seed as well as old, curiously one out of two packs of haze from tomhill..one germed all ten within a 48hr period and the other is 5/10 right now and no sprouts for a week.

 

[HAZENACIOUS]

I have grown some before but didnt keep notes on specifics, but i notice sporadic germination as a trait in some new seed as well as old, curiously one out of two packs of haze from tomhill..one germed all ten within a 48hr period and the other is 5/10 right now and no sprouts for a week.

Hi BeAn,
Interesting, depending on what you remember, notes may not be necessary, for me the effect was not subtle, the 5hz hybrids coming from the17 year old seed sprouts were less than 1% germination rate, and they were very different than the population I had been growing from the same stock, much Hazier.


It's possible that one of the seedpacks is an earlier version, old enough to start losing viability, it might be a good idea to keep the two populations separately labeled, it could possibly help you to gain insight.

 

[HAZENACIOUS]

Im still doubt this to be true but what i will say Neville did alot more work with the C Haze and C5 than the A lines, so we see alot more of it around and in the old Dutch Haze's and alot more has survived from old days and Millions of seeds were made back then and sent all over the world so a 1/3 of all Haze out there or more probably are descendants of the C and C5 plant and yes they had some amazing and potent plants.

You have any pics of the grail project seeds you run and used, Males or Females ?

Hi Ojd,
I believe what I am saying would also apply to the haze A hybrids, but I haven't worked with haze A, so I am keeping it to haze C so I can speak from personal experience.
Nevil told me straight up that the F1 seed 5hzC, the ones I got, was the best seed he ever created, he also said it was much better than haze A, so much so that he didn't even bother with a release of Haze A.



Not sure what you mean by male female seed? I don't have any pics of seed, but I still have some stock in reserve.

 

[leet]

I hope you are true, I am germinating some Super Silver Haze from '99 . I was thinking the EXACT same as you the other day, funny.

 

[HAZENACIOUS]

I hope you are true, I am germinating some Super Silver Haze from '99 . I was thinking the EXACT same as you the other day, funny.

Hi Leet,
Sounds very cool, if you could update us here when you germinate that would be excellent. I was hoping some experienced growers of Seedbank Haze and descendents may have noted the same thing as myself regarding this, when working with older seed.
Are you using any special germination method for such rare seeds, and do you have any tips on getting old seed to pop?

 

[Benny106]

Do you think they know they are the last of thier kind and try harder?

 

[J-Icky]

Well I can’t say for sure but I think it’s more likely that your first generation was selected more towards the hazy side so then years later, the second generation would haze stronger haze phenos and thus their off spring would be even further narrowed down to the haze side of things.
As for potency well that could’ve also come down to simple selections and keeping only seeds from the strongest.

As for the sativa vs indica, well I just ran some Ancestral Skunk which are from seeds reproduced in the early 90s from even older seeds. Almost 30 years old at this point and of the 7 that grew out of 100 seeds 2 were indica dom, 2 sativa dom and 3 were a hybrid looking based off of leaf shaped and growth characteristics. But again these weren’t haze hybrids so who knows.

 

[HAZENACIOUS]

Well I can’t say for sure but I think it’s more likely that your first generation was selected more towards the hazy side so then years later, the second generation would haze stronger haze phenos and thus their off spring would be even further narrowed down to the haze side of things.
As for potency well that could’ve also come down to simple selections and keeping only seeds from the strongest.
As for the sativa vs indica, well I just ran some Ancestral Skunk which are from seeds reproduced in the early 90s from even older seeds. Almost 30 years old at this point and of the 7 that grew out of 100 seeds 2 were indica dom, 2 sativa dom and 3 were a hybrid looking based off of leaf shaped and growth characteristics. But again these weren’t haze hybrids so who knows.

Hi J-icky
Genetic links related to type tend to be breed specific, in other words, traits that may be linked in one breed, may not necessarily be linked in a similar breed or type(although sometimes they are)
I am referring specifically to Seedbank Haze C descendents and probably Haze A as well although I have never worked with Haze A genetics aside from Neville's Haze, so I can't say for sure.

I am pretty sure about Haze C though, if there was a way to know ipso defacto, I would take bets on it, and pay out 5 to one odds on it if I was wrong. I'd still make money on that bet, I believe.

 

[HAZENACIOUS]

Do you think they know they are the last of thier kind and try harder?

Hi BeAn,
Not sure but I think they all try their hardest, but the stronger ones try even harder because they are stronger...
Or maybe they don't try as hard because they are stronger and it's easier for them?
Not exactly sure how that works...

 

[TheDarkStorm]

The best phenos coming out of the 97nh were mostly the gold paler type wich are more hazeA leaning....I believe that 97nh leet managed to get going was a hazeA leaner....
I dont think this just happens with old seed connected to just hazeC ...I believe it happens with many types from wat ive seen.
However I do think that the closer your seeds parents are to the base/original plants that created primal haze the more odd their behaviour/breeding power/inbreeding traits are...I believe it indicates that one of the parent plants that made the very first primal haze may have undergone some sort of colchaine experiment at seed stage.
I think nevil considered nl5hzC the best sativa/indica hybrid he made but he considered the best he could do with the plants he had left was the original f1 nh....hazeA or hazeC put to FH or nl#1FH would have probably topped the nh...but sadly FH was destroyed before the sampling of the progeny due to flowering over 30weeks an hazeA was lost accidentally.

 

[Hemphrey Bogart]

This is a fan leaf from a Special K haze I'm growing this year. I bought the seed in 2010...pretty confident when I say that seed vigor isn't an issue with this particular line. I do try to keep all my seeds in their own refrigerator from the time they arrive until I'm ready to plant them, so maybe that's why I get good germ rates. 10 years isn't really that long if the seed is stored properly.

HB.

 

[HAZENACIOUS]

The best phenos coming out of the 97nh were mostly the gold paler type wich are more hazeA leaning....I believe that 97nh leet managed to get going was a hazeA leaner....
I dont think this just happens with old seed connected to just hazeC ...I believe it happens with many types from wat ive seen.
However I do think that the closer your seeds parents are to the base/original plants that created primal haze the more odd their behaviour/breeding power/inbreeding traits are...I believe it indicates that one of the parent plants that made the very first primal haze may have undergone some sort of colchaine experiment at seed stage.
I think nevil considered nl5hzC the best sativa/indica hybrid he made but he considered the best he could do with the plants he had left was the original f1 nh....hazeA or hazeC put to FH or nl#1FH would have probably topped the nh...but sadly FH was destroyed before the sampling of the progeny due to flowering over 30weeks an hazeA was lost accidentally.

Hi Darkstorm,
Don't misunderstand me, I said in an earlier post that I believe Haze A is the same but I'm sticking to what I know, which is Haze C.
There are two things going on here:
1) like you are saying longer surviving seed is stronger, tends to be better for that reason.
2) The longest surviving haze seed out of a batch of 3000 seeds was Haze A, HazeC, and a few others.
This means these seeds are likely longer lived than most if this is genetic it means this characteristic could be passed to progeny, whereas nl5 came out of comparitively fresh seed.
The question becomes is long lived seed a typal characteristic of Haze? If it is than like other typal traits ie narrow leaf pheno, it is going to be an indication of haze type, which is also attached to haze potency.
Ie narrow leaf- indicator of haze potency
Seed longevity- indicator of haze potency

Regarding Nevils Haze, what Nevil told me is that Haze A dominates the NH cross. Nevil didn't expect this because haze C is 50% but haze A is only 25%. This was a major disappointment for Nevil. Nevils Haze was Nevil doing the best with what he had to work with.

Nevil really wanted to cross 5hzC into Haze A, but this was not possible as the Haze A was already gone so he did the next best thing.
Of course Nevils haze has more potential in breeding for so many reasons, but as a finished product, 5hzC was Nevil's favorite, but it did not inbreed well, and so Nevil saw it as a bit of a dead end, because later generations did not have the same extreme potency and effects of the original F1.

 

[HAZENACIOUS]

This is a fan leaf from a Special K haze I'm growing this year. I bought the seed in 2010...pretty confident when I say that seed vigor isn't an issue with this particular line. I do try to keep all my seeds in their own refrigerator from the time they arrive until I'm ready to plant them, so maybe that's why I get good germ rates. 10 years isn't really that long if the seed is stored properly.



View Image


HB.

Hi Hemphrey,

Nice looking leaf, special K is surely a hzC descendant through Kali Mist.

Yeah, well I agree, it's a matter of selection, like recently, I germinated some 10 year seeds, got around 20% germination, that's pretty good for 10 year seeds in my experience, that would be a selection of rate of best 1 in 5 for every seed that sprouted, I noticed a difference from the fresh seeds I had grown when they were 80-90% germ rate just a few years prior.
However I got a .5% germination on my 15-17 year old seed, that would be best 1 in 200, and the difference is much more profound I noticed with the much lower germination rate owing to age of the seed.

 

[TheDarkStorm]

Hi Darkstorm,
Don't misunderstand me, I said in an earlier post that I believe Haze A is the same but I'm sticking to what I know, which is Haze C.
There are two things going on here:
1) like you are saying longer surviving seed is stronger, tends to be better for that reason.
2) The longest surviving haze seed out of a batch of 3000 seeds was Haze A, HazeC, and a few others.
This means these seeds are likely longer lived than most if this is genetic it means this characteristic could be passed to progeny, whereas nl5 came out of comparitively fresh seed.
The question becomes is long lived seed a typal characteristic of Haze? If it is than like other typal traits ie narrow leaf pheno, it is going to be an indication of haze type, which is also attached to haze potency.
Ie narrow leaf- indicator of haze potency
Seed longevity- indicator of haze potency

Regarding Nevils Haze, what Nevil told me is that Haze A dominates the NH cross. Nevil didn't expect this because haze C is 50% but haze A is only 25%. This was a major disappointment for Nevil. Nevils Haze was Nevil doing the best with what he had to work with.

Nevil really wanted to cross 5hzC into Haze A, but this was not possible as the Haze A was already gone so he did the next best thing.
Of course Nevils haze has more potential in breeding for so many reasons, but as a finished product, 5hzC was Nevil's favorite, but it did not inbreed well, and so Nevil saw it as a bit of a dead end, because later generations did not have the same extreme potency and effects of the original F1.

I thought the whole point of this last round of breeding that nevil did with the nh was that he was trying to increase the old thai leather spice trippy traits that hazeA was closer to (an FH even more so) as ther wasnt a high enough percentage of that in the nh being only 25% an only giving a 1 in 20 return an of corse the one time inbreeding ...for some reson tho hazeC is able to handle the doubling up beter than hazeA most likely due to the extra lumbo that had been added..were as hazeA seems to have been put back to FH (perhaps why it dont double up as well)wich is were the 37% breeding co-efficiency that nevil found between the two males in his nh would make sense...wasnt that why he was looking for the old almost lost thai types an not the sweeter citrusy types you find now days...which is wer the 5hazeC being put to straight hazeA would have made more sense as it would have been closer to the older archetype..
I agree with you tho the older lines that nevil made himself were unmatchable...iv seen some seriously bad ass phenos come out of 5hzC...but personally for me the best thing ive ever seen come out of holland were a couple of phenos nevil himself was holding of the nh...the hazeC leaning one being the more rust colored one almost exactly like the 21...wich had no body high to it at all, just completely in the head, mind fkd tripping type....an then the gold pheno nevil had which looked similar to leets..now that was one of the best top 3 smokes ive ever had...it would crush people an leave them a serious mess...some so much so they wouldn't smoke again..
Hazenacious do you mind describing in abit more detail wat you managed to pull out of your old 5hazeC seeds...I ask because thats one I miss myself...the true f1's have become so rare now.

 

[HAZENACIOUS]

I thought the whole point of this last round of breeding that nevil did with the nh was that he was trying to increase the old thai leather spice trippy traits that hazeA was closer to (an FH even more so) as ther wasnt a high enough percentage of that in the nh being only 25% an only giving a 1 in 20 return an of corse the one time inbreeding ...for some reson tho hazeC is able to handle the doubling up beter than hazeA most likely due to the extra lumbo that had been added..were as hazeA seems to have been put back to FH (perhaps why it dont double up as well)wich is were the 37% breeding co-efficiency that nevil found between the two males in his nh would make sense...wasnt that why he was looking for the old almost lost thai types an not the sweeter citrusy types you find now days...which is wer the 5hazeC being put to straight hazeA would have made more sense as it would have been closer to the older archetype..
I agree with you tho the older lines that nevil made himself were unmatchable...iv seen some seriously bad ass phenos come out of 5hzC...but personally for me the best thing ive ever seen come out of holland were a couple of phenos nevil himself was holding of the nh...the hazeC leaning one being the more rust colored one almost exactly like the 21...wich had no body high to it at all, just completely in the head, mind fkd tripping type....an then the gold pheno nevil had which looked similar to leets..now that was one of the best top 3 smokes ive ever had...it would crush people an leave them a serious mess...some so much so they wouldn't smoke again..
Hazenacious do you mind describing in abit more detail wat you managed to pull out of your old 5hazeC seeds...I ask because thats one I miss myself...the true f1's have become so rare now.

Hi Darkstorm,
Thank you for the stories about the best NH phenos, I don't want it to sound like I am knocking Haze A, even though Nevil thought Haze C was much better in every way we have to keep things in perspective. Outside the FH, and other prior haze, Nevil put weed into 3 basic classes,

Class 3: Non-Haze
Class 2: All non NL 5, Haze Hybrids
Class 1: NL 5 Haze Hybrids


So even though he didn't think 5 Haze A was as good as 5 Haze C they are still both completely in a class all of their own together.



Nevil told me that he felt that the incense phenos in Haze C were brighter and stronger. Haze A produces offspring with a darker cloudier kind of high,Haze C was clearer and stronger. This is what Nevil told me, as for his Goals with the Grail, he was interested in bringing out the the Thai side more you are right, he felt that Kanga's MM was predominantly Thai, but I don't necessarily think he felt that Haze A was more thai dominant than C, and I know he wasn't trying to bring out the Haze A phenos which are more limited/uniform than the Haze C phenos, in fact he felt that Kangas Thai Dominant MM could potentially unlock more of the haze C types, which have more variety, and were mostly locked out of expressing, dominated by the Haze A within Nevils haze. He also felt that because Kangas MM was so well inbred and stabilized, he was hoping that this stability would dominate the haze cross, making a line that could be more easily preserved through inbreeding and line breeding, and wouldn't suffer so badly when inbred.


My original Seedbank 5 haze seeds were sprouted a long time ago, I remember I bought them for one reason only, the warning on the label. I I was mainly interested in NL, stupidly I bought the NL1 because hey it was #1 right? Still worked out great.

I remember that out of all the Haze plants I grew 6 or so, most were more similar, but there was 1 that was very different, super dark green narrower leaf pheno, a bit leafier than the others, grew much more crazily like a vine, it had huge crystals unlike the others biggest trichomes by far I have ever seen, and a much longer budding cycle than her siblings, 108 days, the buds were skinnier but denser, hands down the densist bud I have ever seen. We let the other cuts go because we had the NL, but I grew 5hz for my head and wouldn't smoke anything else.
That pheno had a very trippy high, it was for sure incense, not churchy so much it had not much smell, but there was something unique about it, like an astringent, smelled kind of like whiskey, with a strong alcohol type smell. it tasted like hash and incense on the exhale, and the smoke was very strong expansive, thick blue smoke, and lingers on the air. The high was like a trip easily lasted 6 hours and lots of people have flipped out on it, I held onto it until 96, luckily I had made a bunch of crosses before I finally lost it. Darkest green buds ever, indigo. She was the most profound bud I ever smoked.


I would like to hear more about FH, that is very interesting, what else do you know of it? Was any stock ever preserved?


Below are some pics of 5hz hybrids that remind me a bit of original cut:

 

[HAZENACIOUS]