Genetic Drift?

[englishrick]

"Genetic drift generally occurs over multiple line bred generations.
Eppigenetic drift occurs over multiple cell divisions."

^^^^^this is 100% true

but i believe Hoos is right too,,,,,even overwatering can cause an epigenetic responce!!!!

the RNA system is like a USB cable,,,you can use it to upload and download!!

 

[COconnoisseur]

if this were the case, then why are clones that are passed around still the same? Would't people be saying "you don't want this cut due to genetic drift"?

 

[RNDZL]

if the epigenetic effect triggers a decline in plant health than the converse should be possible

taking cuts of plants that have been downgraded via epigenetic response and exposing them to something that is rich in hormones, auxins, cytokinins, amino and the such should hold some promise in bringing it back to snuff

It would explain why many "elite" strains seem to shine in some stables and lose all vigor and promise in others. Especially with older heirlooms that have been passed

 

[englishrick]

look at the grapefruit,,,,after an epigenetic responce a branch was cloned ,,bingo bango they stated calling it a whole new variety

tissue culture is supposed to get rid of viruses like TMV,,,,

dicline in health due to epigenetic responce is easly possible,,,an you dontneed to expose the plant to radiation,,,,starving it of silica is enough is enough,,imo

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

"Genetic drift generally occurs over multiple line bred generations.
Eppigenetic drift occurs over multiple cell divisions."

^^^^^this is 100% true

but i believe Hoos is right too,,,,,even overwatering can cause an epigenetic responce!!!!

the RNA system is like a USB cable,,,you can use it to upload and download!!

If hoos had said 'epigenetic response' instead of 'mutation' he'd have been right, and I'd have never disagreed with him. Fortunately any epigenetic changes caused by something like overwatering are quickly and easily reversible.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

look at the grapefruit,,,,after an epigenetic responce a branch was cloned ,,bingo bango they stated calling it a whole new variety

tissue culture is supposed to get rid of viruses like TMV,,,,

dicline in health due to epigenetic responce is easly possible,,,an you dontneed to expose the plant to radiation,,,,starving it of silica is enough is enough,,imo

The pink grapefruit(not the cannabis strain, actual grapefruit) was due to mutation.

Mutation changes the DNA and does create a whole new variety. Epigenetic response does not. Epigenetic response is reversible, mutation is not.

Not every change a plant undergoes in response to environment ... starving it of silica might get response but most likely not the sort of heritable change which would indicate epigenetic response... Let's not get back into ascribing epigenetics to every single genetic process... that was what led to the frustration in your epigenetics thread.

You are trying to apply epigenetic as though the older broad definition still was considered accurate... It has been narrowed down as our understanding increases. If the response is not heritable then it is not epigenetic.

Robin Holliday defined epigenetics as "the study of the mechanisms of temporal and spatial control of gene activity during the development of complex organisms."[6] Thus epigenetic can be used to describe anything other than DNA sequence that influences the development of an organism.
The modern usage of the word in scientific discourse is more narrow, referring to heritable traits (over rounds of cell division and sometimes transgenerationally) that do not involve changes to the underlying DNA sequence.[7] The Greek prefix epi- in epigenetics implies features that are "on top of" or "in addition to" genetics; thus epigenetic traits exist on top of or in addition to the traditional molecular basis for inheritance.

If you have evidence of heritable change caused by such mundane things as overwatering or nutrient imbalance, I'd love to check it out... Otherwise I'll continue to believe that those responses are more a result of known cellular mechanisms, and not changes on an epigenetic level.

 

[ROJO145]

LOL,I lost count,whats that gang?Sumtin like H3ad 250 and Hoosier 0? Epic Fail!!LOL,I love this bar!!Fill me up with red dots you plural degree genius,lol Top of your field huh!!!Whats that?Sanitation!!

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

I'm willing to reset to zero vs zero, clean slate style, as per request, as long as the derision goes away in favor of discourse.

 

[Babbabud]

Nothing like having someone comb through every single word you type. I applaud your cool attitude Head Thanks

 

[englishrick]

yeh,,,,i agree with you Head!,,,,,i was gona pick your posts but there is no point,,,,you have coverd it!

yeh,,,,i agree,, i do think epigenetics is a broad concept!!,, but i also belive an stress mutation is an epigenetic responce,,,,,IMO its all heritable through repoduction!!,,,,sex aswell as grafting

my definitinon works like this,,,,if 2 human babys of pure jewish heritage "identical twins" are put on oposite sides of the globe,,1 in china on the rice fields and 1 in Macdonalds in NewYork,,,,,,the difference in the 2 twins after 20 years will be an Epigenetic responce..........some things are heritable through sex,,,,emegine the american twin smoked his whole life,,,,,,,,,,,,

IMO it all depends on the niche enviroment,,,,please correct me if im wrong??????????

 

[hoosierdaddy]

You are trying to apply epigenetic as though the older broad definition still was considered accurate... It has been narrowed down as our understanding increases. If the response is not heritable then it is not epigenetic.

The field is relatively new and there are many things researchers are discovering about the issue. One thing is that there are multiple mechanisms that can trigger epigenetic responses, and through multiple stimuli, stress, and environmental conditions. There are also phase shifts being seen that are heritable and on the epigenome level that happen due to no stimuli or external conditions forcing triggers. These tend to screw a bit with Mendelian theory, and is in large part what is missing from understanding as of yet.
IMO, kinda hard to make blanket statements about how and why things are responding, when there are so many avenues and variables that can be involved.

When I read a post like the OP, I gotta think first that there is a problem at the root. Meaning that if a clone goes shit all of a sudden, I sure am not going to sit back with my chin in my hand and state; "epigenetic drift"...as I take another draw from my Sherlock.
I am going to find out what I have done to make my plant sick.
Epigenetic response or not, something immediate is involved most likely, and not some major shift of the genome. Lights, air, medium, feed....and then find out what I am doing that anyone else that sees the same problem may be doing too. Seems to me that it would be some major shifting going on to cause a plant to totally change character "out of nowhere". And what could bring about such a major shift so fast?

Head, I think another area of our disagreement arises from the fact that from what I understand there are epigenetic phase shifts that can in fact happen for no reason at all, without stimuli. And you seem to feel there has to be some sort of external stimulus to trigger these responses.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

yeh,,,,i agree with you Head!,,,,,i was gona pick your posts but there is no point,,,,you have coverd it!

yeh,,,,i agree,, i do think epigenetics is a broad concept!!,, but i also belive an stress mutation is an epigenetic responce,,,,,IMO its all heritable through repoduction!!,,,,sex aswell as grafting

my definitinon works like this,,,,if 2 human babys of pure jewish heritage "identical twins" are put on oposite sides of the globe,,1 in china on the rice fields and 1 in Macdonalds in NewYork,,,,,,the difference in the 2 twins after 20 years will be an Epigenetic responce..........some things are heritable through sex,,,,emegine the american twin smoked his whole life,,,,,,,,,,,,

IMO it all depends on the niche enviroment,,,,please correct me if im wrong??????????

Rick, lots of my looking at this issue over the last couple years involved twins research, which is especially interesting to me.
Identical twins can live and work in the very exact same environment and they can both see genetic shifts totally independent from one another. Their maps are nearly indistinguishable when children, but at 80 they can have totally unique mappings from one another.
I think this also is blowing researchers minds, and is what keyed them in on epigenetic phase shifts being able to occur without the trigger of an external condition.
Some may say this is genetic and not epigenetic, but it seems the researchers still consider this to be at the epigenome level.

 

[englishrick]

absoloutly!!

the twin reaserch blew everones minds

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

right on... Though the twin thing is environmental.
There is no possible way that the twins spend their entire lives in exactly the same environment. The differences make the difference.

No blanket statements I made were so narrow as to be incorrect on any level, hoos, you're nitpicking. Of course multiple stimuli can evoke epigenetic response, nothing I said is contradicted by anything you've said. I'm glad this inspired you to delve deeper into epigenetic research, though... it is a very interesting topic.

Epigenetic changes which appear to occur with no stimuli are programed by the genome to change according to specific internal stimuli, from what I have read. If you will look at all the information given in the thread, it looks as though it is a heritable temporary change being described. imho, of course.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

I'm here to dispute that, Head.
I will have to find the studies.
It may well be that the differences do make the major difference, BUT...I think that is what also startled the researchers was when they looked, there were no major differences in the lives of some of the study participants. Perhaps one ate a food the other didn't...or used a product the other didn't, but they lived virtually identical lives in the same places.
And I am almost certain this is the condition that led the scientists to conclude that there can indeed be shifting occur for no apparent external forcing. (conflicting with Mendelian theory)
In our world, this condition may be responsible for the sports that fall out of the trees.

 

[englishrick]

emagine these two jewish twins are the two slits in the classic quantam doubble split experiment,,,,its still to this day allmost impossible to explain,,,,it baffels the best minds

inderviduals in a population take the role of possibilitys,,,the whole thing is fukin quantam

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

I'm here to dispute that, Head.
I will have to find the studies.
It may well be that the differences do make the major difference, BUT...I think that is what also startled the researchers was when they looked, there were no major differences in the lives of some of the study participants. Perhaps one ate a food the other didn't...or used a product the other didn't, but they lived virtually identical lives in the same places.
And I am almost certain this is the condition that led the scientists to conclude that there can indeed be shifting occur for no apparent external forcing. (conflicting with Mendelian theory)
In our world, this condition may be responsible for the sports that fall out of the trees.

Your environment is much more detailed than simply the general area where you live and work. The food you eat is part of your environment. That is exactly what I was saying... the differences make the difference. Your environment includes everything that is not you. What air you breathe, what food you eat, how much sunlight you get each day, how well you sleep at night, what bug spray you use... These are the environmental stimuli of which I am speaking... There are so many many variables.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Yes, and the researchers are baffled at how twins living nearly identical lives can have their maps shifted in opposite directions over the years. One would think that slight differences would equate to slight shiftings...but it seems this isn't always the case.
Apparently there are other triggers involved internally that are not external forcing dependent, and that is my point. And would also account for the major shifts seen.
I agree that stimuli is probably the major trigger(that we know about) but to say that all epigenetic drifts are due to external forcings, would be a blanket statement.
I am not nitpicking. I am discussing.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

emagine these two jewish twins are the two slits in the classic quantam doubble split experiment,,,,its still to this day allmost impossible to explain,,,,it baffels the best minds

inderviduals in a population take the role of possibilitys,,,the whole thing is fukin quantam

It is all quantum.

This is off topic but interesting on a quantum level.

A human being is part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. We experience ourselves, our thoughts and feelings as something separate from the rest – a kind of optical delusion of consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from the prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty... We shall require a substantially new manner of thinking if mankind is to survive.
- Albert Einstein

In David Jay Brown and Psychedelics, we talked about the possibility that psychedelic experiences might actually be used in the treatment of addictions and mental illness, when given in properly supervised circumstances. Though I have no personal experience with psychedelics I'm fascinated when I read about the experiences of others who have gone out to the edges of perception and brought us back some jewels for us all to admire.

Last blog was entitled "I Know You, You Know Me": a phrase from a Beatles song. This time we're using another phrase, this one which John Lennon tells us was based upon an insight that came to him while he was taking an acid trip. (The song this is taken from, "I Am the Walrus", is also quite famously known as a song John Lennon concocted after learning that schoolteachers were incorporating Beatles music into their lectures, and Lennon took great delight in creating a song which would be so deliberately obscure no one would be able to interpret it. Nonetheless, the opening phrase of the song is reported to be a serious effort by Lennon to explain an insight he perceived while under the influence of LSD:

I am he as you are he as you are me
and we are all together

Last blog we talked about the feeling of connectedness that a growing number of people are sharing right now around the world. It's so easy to be cynical about ideas like this, and yet books by serious scientists like Dr. Jill Bolte Taylor, whose "My Stroke of Insight" I have talked about a number of times before, are showing us that there is more than just naive wishful thinking to such an idea: it appears that it is part of our basic human awareness, the underlying seeds of consciousness that make us who we are, that is naturally driven to find the connections of the one to the many.

I don't usually talk about my dreams in this blog, but I had a doozy a few weeks ago which, if you will indulge me, I would like to share.

Have you ever had a dream that seemed to cover an impossibly long span of time? In this dream, I started from my current life, interacted with people in ways that were sometimes wonderful, sometimes frustrating or infuriating, and eventually I died. After a brief break I started another life, this time still laden with the memories of what had ticked me off and what I had enjoyed in my previous life, and this definitely had an influence on my new life and the decisions I made. Again and again I repeated the process, and eventually I started to recognize myself in other bodies, often acting from a certain belief system which was flawed by misunderstandings and bad luck that had come before, and eventually I had lived every life that there was to have lived in the history of the world. I awoke with a feeling that if only we could all have such an experience, we would all be able to understand why so many of us can appear to act with unreasoning negativity - we are all interacting without truly understanding what makes the other person do and say the things they do.

Okay, it was just a dream, everyone has strange dreams from time to time. But since this project has me obsessed with finding connections, I saw an eerie echo of my dream a few days later when I read this passage from Michio Kaku's "The Physics of the Impossible". He is talking about Richard Feynman, whose "sum over histories" method is one of the concepts I have used many times in my book and this blog:
...Feynman revealed the true secret of antimatter: it's just ordinary matter going backward in time. This simple observation immediately explained the puzzle that all particles have antiparticle partners: it's because all particles can travel backward in time, and hence masquerade as antimatter. (This interpretation is still the explanation currently accepted today.)
With his thesis advisor, John Wheeler, Feynman then speculated that perhaps the entire universe consisted of just one electron, zigzagging back and and forth in time. Imagine that out of the chaos of the original big bang only a single electron was created. Trillions of years later, this single electron would eventually encounter the cataclysm of Doomsday, where it would make a U-turn and go backward in time, releasing a gamma ray in the process. Then it would go back to the original big bang, and then perform another U-turn. The electron would then make repeated zigzag journeys back and forth, from the big bang to Doomsday. Our universe in the twenty-first century is just a time slice of this electron's journey, in which we see trillions of electrons and antielectrons, that is, the visible universe. As strange as this theory may appear, it explains a curious fact from the quantum theory: why all electrons are the same. ...Maybe the reason is that the entire universe consists of the same electron, just bouncing back and forth in time.

Feynman's crazy notion about one single electron, and antimatter particles traveling backwards in time grew into his theory of quantum electrodynamics, which has been experimentally verified to one part in 10 billion, making it one of the most accurate theories of all time. Feynman and his colleagues were awarded the Nobel Prize in 1965 for this discovery. If you click here you can read his Nobel acceptance speech from that year, which is an entertaining and insightful exploration of the creative mind.

Could our universe really have only one electron, whizzing back and forth within timelessness to create the trillions of electrons we see at any particular "now" for our universe? Could consciousness be the same, only one consciousness traveling back and forth across time, experiencing the endless complexity of our universe from a unique perspective each time, but ultimately seeing itself complete the same journey over and over again? Perhaps John Lennon and Richard Feynman were thinking about ideas that were more similar than either of them could ever have realized.

Enjoy the journey!

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

I agree, hoos... small differences can cause disproportionately large divergences. Large differences don't always cause changes either... we don't understand all the detailed workings yet, by any means... but they are consistently gaining ground, ands we do understand enough about it to know plenty of generalities about the workings.

Stimuli do not have to be external. When I say stimuli I am talking about any stimuli, not ever only "external" and I don't think I implied any 'forcing' at any point. stimuli are generally going to be either genetic response/program dependent or environmental, though.