Genetic Drift?

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Try this...

keep up with which cuts are tops and which cuts are lower branches... My guess is that the lowers will be more likely than not the duds and the cuts from higher up will be the good performers.

 

[gdtrfb]

i killed the dudd producing mom and got another cut from a friend that says his arent doing this, we will see soon as im taking cuts of it now.

do you/one of the other growers w/ same shit popping up have the spare room to play w/ for the weed laboratory?

just find the subject interesting as hell, it'd be cool to see getting a little closer to the bottom of it. the specifics of what to do, i'd leave to the science slow talkers around here - i'm just the peanut gallery

 

[Greyskull]

So you are getting good plants and duds off of the same moms?

Small dark leaves and brittle stems can be indicative of nute/ pH issues. Maybe that plant is really P and K sensitive?

YESSSS!!!!!
25% of the cuts i was taking from my sdx mom just turn dudd. all of them are fed the same everything.

and its not just that the leaves were darker - the way the fan blades were thrown/spread differs drastically (more webbed or stacked/overlapping) too... thats how i finally figured out how/what to cull partly (the other was noticing the brittality). its like it morphed or mutated.

at first i thought it was due to a (T)MV infection but i no longer think thats what it is...

Try this...

keep up with which cuts are tops and which cuts are lower branches... My guess is that the lowers will be more likely than not the duds and the cuts from higher up will be the good performers.

funny you mention that...
before i finally axed the 'dicey' momma i was taking a good hard look at her and it seemed that the true tops (sights at the top of the plant) were okay looking while the lowers had more of the webby blade pattern... i wont be able to try any experiments as i fed my dudd thrower to the lawnmower a while ago. i said 'cya' to that crazy bitch

well there has been some good ideas floating around in here, let me explain a little about the sour dubb, this was a relative new strain that greyskull popped from some seed, i was lucky enough to get a cut, so was zoolander, caligreen and many others, I had my mother for 2 to 3 months before i cloned another due to the old mom getting to big, all clones were good on both these moms, then on the third mom POW about 50% dudds, now greyskull and zoo all of a sudden started having the same thing happen, really dont know if they still had there origanal moms or what, but i know we all couldent have stressed our moms at the same time or over nuted or whatever. has to be genetic.

and just to follow up the 5 of us (caligreen, joesy, myself, my cuz & zoo) that have had this happen are pretty experienced multilight growers that regularly churn out top shelf buds. we dont have light leaks we dont have huge temp/rh swings are shit is pretty dialed in...

 

[GET MO]

Damnit... I wanted ta try that sour dubb too, that shit looked like it was IT.

 

[Grizz]

Damnit... I wanted ta try that sour dubb too, that shit looked like it was IT.

it is top shelf Mo, she is still around, if this new mom turns out good she will never die, if not its gone.

GS are you still getting dudds from the new cut you got?

 

[Greyskull]

it is top shelf Mo, she is still around, if this new mom turns out good she will never die, if not its gone.

GS are you still getting dudds from the new cut you got?

No dudds yet!!!! Ive multiplied her plenty and am growing them up to snuff. they probably wont be ready to flower for another 2 months shes so fucking slow to get to good size hahaha

Im gonna smuggle this bitch with me whevever i go, med friendly or not $o... the smell taste high bag appeal all top 5 to me...

 

[dank.frank]

Poor selection of clonable material...think about that

I'm not sure if anyone has thought about this in more depth...but THIS makes a ton of sense...

I know that in theory, the purpose of taking 6-8 cuts is NOT to have 6-8 more plants...but rather, to be able to select the strongest 2 cuts to survive....

Perhaps there is something to this old time practice...



dank.Frank

 

[3dDream]

Side note: Did you guys know that avacados and navel oranges are from a single cut(grafting)? Fuck could you image the smoke if we all decided "this is the best herb for us all to smoke" and farmers only grew that cut? Skunk times a million?

 

[englishrick]

if im not mistaken,,,,, every PinkGrapefuit you will see in every supermarket in the world comes from 1 origonal PinkGrapefruit plant,,,,,its all been done by grafting from that 1 odd Grapefruit ,,,,

 

[GeorgeSmiley]

Side note: Did you guys know that avacados and navel oranges are from a single cut(grafting)? Fuck could you image the smoke if we all decided "this is the best herb for us all to smoke" and farmers only grew that cut? Skunk times a million?

That sounds like the most horrific thing I have ever heard. Like an herb holocaust.

Then you find out monsanto genetically modified the strain and in 22 years every second child born has an inside out asshole

Just sayin
Smiley

 

[englishrick]

here is some good info!!

The grapefruit (Citrus Paradisi), is a subtropical citrus tree known for its bitter fruit, an 18th-century hybrid first bred in Barbados and subsequently recorded in Jamaica. When found in Barbados it was named the "forbidden fruit" it is also called the "shaddock", after its creator.

These evergreen trees are usually found at around 5–6 metres (16–20 ft) tall, although they can reach 13–15 metres (43–49 ft). The leaves are dark green, long (up to 150 mm, or 6 inches) and thin. It produces 5 cm (2 in) white four-petaled flowers. The fruit is yellow-orange skinned and largely oblate, and ranges in diameter from 10–15 cm. The flesh is segmented and acidic, varying in color depending on the cultivars, which include white, pink and red pulps of varying sweetness. The 1929 US Ruby Red (of the Redblush variety) has the first grapefruit patent.

The fruit has only become popular from the late 19th century; before that it was only grown as an ornamental plant. The US quickly became a major producer of the fruit, with orchards in Florida, Texas, Arizona, and California. In Spanish, the fruit is known as toronja or pomelo.

The hybrid fruit was in 1750 documented by a Welshman, The Reverend Griffith Hughes describing specimens from Barbados. Currently, the grapefruit is said to be one of the "Seven Wonders of Barbados." It was brought to Florida by Count Odette Philippe in 1823 in what is now known as Safety Harbor. Further crosses have produced the tangelo (1905), the minneola (1931), and the sweetie (1984). The sweetie has very small genetic and other differences from pomelo.

The grapefruit was known as the shaddock or shattuck until the 1800s. Its current name alludes to clusters of the fruit on the tree, which often appear similar to grapes. Botanically, it was not distinguished from the pomelo until the 1830s, when it was given the name Citrus paradisi. Its true origins were not determined until the 1940s. This led to the official name being altered to Citrus × paradisi.[8][9

The 1929 Ruby Red patent was associated with real commercial success, which came after the discovery of a red grapefruit growing on a pink variety. Only with the introduction of the Ruby Red did the grapefruit transform into a real agricultural success. The Red grapefruit, starting with the Ruby Red, has even become a symbolic fruit of Texas, where white "inferior" grapefruit were eliminated and only red grapefruit were grown for decades. Using radiation to trigger mutations, new varieties were developed to retain the red tones which typically faded to pink, the Rio Red variety is the current (2007) Texas grapefruit with registered trademarks Rio Star and Ruby-Sweet, also sometimes promoted as "Reddest" and "Texas Choice".

 

[miltonchitlin]

Interesting topic I'm sure all growers have seen this type of 'trainwreck to trash' with our cuts. I think the old wives tales, wipe with clorox or alcohol between snips and taking twice as many cuts as required etc are in place to remove vectors to disease and virus. Isn't that the major cause of poor performance?

In Whales case all the growers had the same infection and showed the same results. It's like clones from a mother that's had powdery mildew are prone to powdery mildew. Even if the plants look healthy they are not.

These acids in rooting hormones are another cause for concern. I saw one old stoner throw his clone water with a strong under the counter hormone on his mother that he just got done taking clones from. Next time I saw that mother it looked totally mutated. Fan leaves the size of a quarter, thin purple stems. Poor boy ran that for 4 more runs I was like WTF dude.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Using radiation to trigger mutations, new varieties were developed to retain the red tones which typically faded to pink, the Rio Red variety is the current (2007) Texas grapefruit with registered trademarks Rio Star and Ruby-Sweet, also sometimes promoted as "Reddest" and "Texas Choice".

How can this be, Rick? Head says there is no such thing as a stress mutation?

 

[englishrick]

you clever man

 

[furious george]

How can this be, Rick? Head says there is no such thing as a stress mutation?

You included the answer in your own quote.

Using radiation to trigger mutations, new varieties were developed to retain the red tones which typically faded to pink, the Rio Red variety is the current (2007) Texas grapefruit with registered trademarks Rio Star and Ruby-Sweet, also sometimes promoted as "Reddest" and "Texas Choice".

 

[englishrick]

Varieties

Named varieties of grapefruit appeared in the official list of the American Pomological Society in 1897, but pioneers had selected and named favorite clones for several years before that time. The following are among the most noteworthy of old and new cultivars




'Duncan',,,the original trees were virtually identical seedlings that grew in a grove owned by a man named Snedicor near Safety Harbor, Florida. Propagation was first undertaken by A. L. Duncan of Dunedin in 1892. The fruit is round or slightly obovate; large, 3 1/2 to 5 in (9-12.5 cm) wide; peel is very light yellow (usually called "white"), with large oil glands, medium-thick, highly aromatic; pulp is buff, in 12-14 segments with medium-tender membranous walls, very juicy, of fine flavor; seeds medium-large, 30-50. Early to mid-season. Tree is unusually cold-hardy. This was the leading cultivar for many years in Florida and Texas and was introduced into all the grapefruit-growing areas of the world. Today, in the United States, it has largely given way to cultivars with fewer seeds, but it is being grown commercially in India. Recent seed irradiation experiments have shown that a high percentage of seedless mutants results from exposure to 20-25 krad.

'Foster' ('Foster Pink Flesh')–Originated as a branch sport of a selection called 'Walters' in the Atwood Grove near Ellenton, Florida, discovered by M.B. Foster of Manatee in 1906, and propagated for sale by the Royal Palm Nurseries. Fruit is oblate to round; medium-large, averaging 3 3/4 in (9.5 cm) in width; peel light-yellow blushed with pink, smooth but with large, conspicuous oil glands; albedo pink; pulp light-buff, pinkish near the center; in 13 or 14 segments with pinkish walls, tender, juicy, of good quality despite seeds, up to 50 or even more, of medium size. Medium-early in season. Not very popular; grown to a limited extent in Florida, Texas, Arizona and India. In Texas, it is more colorful, the pulp being entirely pinkish in hue.

'Marsh' ('Marsh Seedless')–one of 3 seedling trees on the property of a Mrs. Rushing near Lakeland, Florida, purchased by William Hancock in 1862. Because the fruits of this tree were seedless, C.M. Marsh took budwood from it for nursery propagation and he bought young trees previously budded by others. He sold the budded offspring and, in time, the 'Marsh' was planted more than any other cultivar. The original tree was killed by cold in the winter of 1895-96. The fruit is oblate to round, medium in size, 3 1/2 to 4 3/4 in (9-12 cm) wide; peel is light-yellow, very smooth, with medium-size oil glands, mildly aromatic; pulp is buff, in 12-14 segments with tender membranes, melting, extremely juicy and rich in flavor; seeds absent or 3-8, medium-sized. Medium to late in season and holds well on the tree. Keeps well after harvest. The leading grapefruit cultivar; grown in Florida, California, Texas, Arizona, South America, Australia, South Africa, Israel and India. A local selection, presumably of a seedling 'Marsh', in Surinam is known there as 'Hooghart'. The two are almost indistinguishable.

'Oroblanco'–a triploid from a grapefruit X pummelo cross made in 1958 by geneticists R.K. Soost and J.W. Cameron of the University of California, Riverside. Patent obtained in 1981 and assigned to the University of California Board of Regents. Fruit form and size similar to 'Marsh'; peel paler and thicker; pulp paler and has larger hollow in center; sections easily skinned; tender, juicy, non-bitter; has faintly astringent after-taste before full maturity or in cooler climates; seedless. Season early: December to April at Riverside; early November through February at Landcove. Tree is vigorous, large, hardy, can tolerate temperatures down to 30º F (-1.11º C); yields medium to heavy crops and may tend to alternate bearing. Seems better adapted to California's inland citrus locations than to desert sites. Has been grown experimentally on trifoliate orange, 'Troyer' citrange, citremon 1449, Brazilian sour orange, grapefruit, sweet orange, rough lemon and 'Red' rough lemon rootstocks. The two latter have adversely affected internal quality

'Paradise Navel'–a selection from the 100-year-old Nicholson citrus grove near Winter Garden, Florida; propagated and patented by W.H. Nicholson, improved and released for distribution in 1976. Fruit is oblate, smaller than a typical grapefruit. Originally very seedy, but, by budding onto various rootstocks and transferring from one rootstock to another over a period of years, there eventually emerged one tree bearing fruit without seeds. Budwood from this tree has produced uniformity of seedlessness regardless of rootstock. The fruits have been sold to local customers but no scions nor trees were sold prior to 1976.

'Redblush' (including 'Ruby', 'Ruby Red', 'Shary Red', 'Curry Red', 'Fawcett Red', 'Red Radiance', and 'Webb' [Webb's Redblush Seedless'])–originated as sports–lower branches–growing out of 'Thompson' trees which a Texas nursery had purchased from Glen St. Mary Nursery and sold to growers in the Rio Grande Valley, and which were frozen back in 1929. All are seedless and otherwise similar to 'Thompson' but display redder color. 'Redblush' grapefruits have been extensively planted in Florida in the past few decades though the juice is not suitable for canning as it tends to turn brown with age. By 1950, 75% of Florida's grapefruit crop was of the pink or red seedless type. Under the name, 'Ruby Red', a member of this group is a standard commercial cultivar in Texas. In 1958, budwood of 'Redblush' from California was acquired by the Regional Fruit Research Station at Abohar, India, was propagated on rough lemon, and the resulting trees performed so well and showed such disease resistance that the cultivar was recommended for growing under irrigation in the and regions of the Punjab and Haryana, where it averages 250 fruits annually per tree. Probably includable in this group is 'Burgundy'. Its peel is not blushed but the pulp is intense red throughout the season. 'Ray Ruby' and the similar if not identical 'Henderson' are branch sports propagated in Texas and introduced into Florida in the 1970's. The peel is redder than that of 'Ruby Red' and the pulp is red though not as intense as 'Star Ruby' throughout the season. Recently, budwood of 'Ray Ruby' has become available from the Florida Department of Agriculture's Bureau of Citrus Budwood Registration in Winter Haven. 'Ray Ruby' is expected to perform better than 'Star Ruby' on standard rootstocks.

'Star Ruby'–a lower branch mutation bearing red-blushed fruits, noticed on a 'Foster' tree at San Benito, Texas, in the mid 1930's. The tree had been frozen back nearly to the bud union the previous year. Budwood from the branch was propagated by C. E. Hudson as the 'Hudson Red' but, because of its coarse texture and high number of seeds (40-60), it was not adopted commercially. Seeds were irradiated at the Texas A & I Citrus Center, Weslaco, in 1959. The seedling from one of these treated seeds was named the 'Star Ruby' and introduced into cultivation in 1971 by Richard Hensz of Texas A & I University. Several thousand trees were planted in Texas. At least 65,000 budded trees were brought into Florida in 1971 by commercial interests without proper qualifications and permits under the Division of Plant Industry. Investigation revealed a susceptibility to Phytophthora root rot and ringspot virus in Texas. The Florida State Agricultural Commissioner ordered the destruction of all unauthorized imported trees. About 25,000 were voluntarily destroyed by owners but the ruling was contested and the trees were placed under quarantine. Subsequently, ringspot virus was found on one of the imported trees which had already been used as a source of budwood. Infected trees from this source were found in a nursery and were destroyed together with all neighboring healthy trees. By April 1977, certified, disease-free budwood of 'Star Ruby' was made available and nearly 200,000 "budeyes" were released to growers. They were urged to make only limited plantings until more was known of this cultivar's fruiting habits. The tree tends to become more chlorotic than 'Ruby Red' when sunburned or affected by poor drainage, or high applications of herbicides and pesticides, and it is sensitive to adverse weather conditions.

'Star Ruby' has a yellow peel distinctly red-blushed and in tensely red pulp and juice, 3 times more colorful than 'Ruby Red'. Though the color decreases with maturity, it is maintained throughout the season. The pulp is smooth and firmer than that of 'Ruby Red' and has a bit more sugar and acid. Furthermore, there may be no seeds or no more than nine. Some of the juice color is dissipated by heat in the pasteurization process but there is still enough for the product to be blended with white or pink grapefruit juice to provide more consumer appeal.

'Sweetie'–a grapefruit × pummelo hybrid released in 1984 by the Citrus Marketing Board in Israel, has all the features of a typical grapefruit but the flavor is sweet.

'Thompson' (Pink Marsh')–In 1913, one branch of a 'Marsh' tree owned by W. R. Thompson, Oneco, Florida, bore pink-fleshed, seedless fruits. Propagation of budwood from the branch was undertaken by the Royal Palm Nurseries in 1924. A similar bud variation of the 'Marsh' had appeared around 1920 at Riverside, California. The fruit is oblate to round, of medium size, 2 3/4 to 3 3/4 in (7-9.5 cm) wide; peel is light-yellow, smooth, with small, inconspicuous oil glands, faintly aromatic; pulp is light- to deep-buff more or less flushed with pink, sometimes throughout, occasionally just near the center. There are 12 to 14 segments with abundant, colorless juice, and few seeds–usually 3 to 5. The color of the pulp is most intense in January and February. By late March and April it has faded to nearly amber.

'Triumph' (possibly the same as 'Royal' and 'Isle of Pines')–a seedling on the grounds of the Orange Grove Hotel in Tampa, Florida, propagated in 1884. The fruit is oblate to ellipsoid, slightly flattened at both ends; of medium size; peel light-yellow, very smooth, with oil glands of medium size; medium-thick; pulp pale, tender, juicy, only faintly bitter, the flavor having a touch of orange; the center is semi-hollow; of superior quality; 35-50 seeds. Medium-early in season, beginning in November. Grown only in dooryards in Florida, but has been widely distributed in citrus regions; does better than 'Marsh' in South Africa.

A grapefruit-like, triploid hybrid named 'Melogold' was developed by crossing a sweet pummelo with a seedy, white, tetraploid grapefruit in 1958. The fruit is larger than 'Marsh' grapefruit and its pummelo-like flavor is considered superior though it may have a trace of bitterness at the beginning and end of the season which extends from early November or December through February. 'Melogold' is grafted onto rough lemon and 'Troyer' citrange rootstocks and is recommended for interior California, not in hot desert nor in humid coastal situations. Patent rights are held by the University of California and budwood is released only to licensed nurserymen

 

[englishrick]

sorry for not putting that in quotes..."i didnt write it"

 

[kopite]

Stimuli dependent? yes, in that epigenetic changes do not occur randomly without cause.

I never said anything to indicate "that there are no epigenetic mechanisms in play that are not stress related".



In that the structure and functioning of the epigenome are the result of the underlying genome's program, you could specifically breed toward those goals, but determining the genetic/epigenetic origins of particular responses would be a lot more challenging than simply selecting disease resistant breeding stock, for example.

by "simply" selecting disease resistant breeding stock phenotypically do you think you're guarding against disease or just how the plant is responding to the given enviroment?

http://www.the-scientist.com/blog/display/57224/

Kopite

 

[furious george]

Nice work Rick. That's helpful, pertinent stuff you posted up there. I've always wanted a list of grapefruit cultivars. Especially with all the detailed info

The fruit is oblate to round, medium in size, 3 1/2 to 4 3/4 in (9-12 cm) wide; peel is light-yellow, very smooth, with medium-size oil glands, mildly aromatic; pulp is buff, in 12-14 segments with tender membranes, melting, extremely juicy and rich in flavor; seeds absent or 3-8, medium-sized

Gold mate, solid gold that info.

 

[englishrick]

tell me if im wrong guys ,,,but it sounds to me like this


stressing stressing causes adaptation,,,,an charles said "adaptation is mutation",,,,grafting the mutated branch causes,,,,,,WHAT?

lol