maybe A- actualy 
,,,
,,,
-
ICMag with help from Landrace Warden and The Vault is running a NEW contest in November! You can check it here. Prizes are seeds & forum premium access. Come join in!
Genetic Drift?
- Thread starter krunchbubble
- Start date
Yeah... I often think our butting of heads would be ended a lot quicker if we'd have simply gone to fisticuffs and gotten it all out at once...
Détente is not an uncomfortable place to be in our relations, though.
we all have our own ideas. I am a simple man, what you guys debate about is way over my head, not disrespecting any of you, Ive had my disagreements with h3ad and hoosier before but I still respect your knowledge, I do appreciate it when you guys keep it simple and to the point, thanks
this post explains what I have been going thru with a lifesaver girl that has been growing continuously since 02..approx 50th generation of the clone...recently she got weird.
but the most recent round of clone (because of super care back to basics) is strong again.
great post
peace
jip
Lol Rick, howzit. The fact is that I am as busy as ever before as of late as you will all soon see. Behind on personal correspondents, pm's, ect, but I am well and trying to catch-up with folks.
In regards to this thread... Anytime we hear of these types of symptoms -loss of quality in a clone in what is considered to be a proper environment- our first suspicions and research should be directed towards infectious systemic diseases.
Various fusaria can be a bitch for example, and spread around by unknowing but well intended folk via clones, then grown for several clonal generations in cooler, quicker cycles by the indoor farmer without their knowledge and without any apparent problems. Take it outside and into the hot summer and longer cycle however and those same pressures are often brought to bear. I suspected and confirmed some type of fusarium in both the old Salmon Creek clone as well as the old Trainwreck clone. I suppose if the original cuts were more precious to me I may have tried to grow my way out of it as Sam and H3ad have described, maybe in a Streptomyces griseoviridis (Mycostop) inoculated medium.
I don't know Krunch, but there is very likely some as of yet undetected pressure there imo. -Tom
ahh wow,,,good to see you Tom,,,
yeh,,,im with ya on Krunch`s "un-diffined pressure",,,,,i believe someone coulda saved that plant!
it could well be a systemeic issue,,,,good call!! .....but Raco an Head are still right!!,,,,,,ya gota treat and burn-out a sistemic problem,,,picking good clones could avoid many issues!!
good to see you tom,,,i wish you had more time,,,but i aint moaning,,,
yeh,,,im with ya on Krunch`s "un-diffined pressure",,,,,i believe someone coulda saved that plant!
it could well be a systemeic issue,,,,good call!! .....but Raco an Head are still right!!,,,,,,ya gota treat and burn-out a sistemic problem,,,picking good clones could avoid many issues!!
good to see you tom,,,i wish you had more time
,,,but i aint moaning,,,
Also I would like to point out to those who suggest to use seeds every so often to select out new clones with vigor. Seeds can also carry viruses and bacteria and other disease. For example, HSV Hemp Streak Virus, AMV Alfalfa Mosaic Virus, CMV Cucumber Mosaic Virus, ArMV Arabis Mosaic Virus, HMV, as well as Bacterial Blight Pseudomonas syringae pv. cannabia, Xanthomonas Blight Xanthomonas campestris pv. cannabis, Striatura Ulcerosa Pseudomonas syringae pv. mori, and a few others that may or may not be spread by seeds. The same with fungal diseases.
The end effect is there is no easy way to hide from diseases, and no easy solutions.
Although at least nowadays some home tests are available to confirm infections.
-SamS
The end effect is there is no easy way to hide from diseases, and no easy solutions.
Although at least nowadays some home tests are available to confirm infections.
-SamS
K
kopite
"Continuing to take cuts from cuts of cuts which were all less than healthy can cause problems that are very time consuming and tedious to correct. "
I think at least in California we are seeing this a lot more. Some of these large scale clone producers, such as BlueSky, cut so many damn clones every day. As well as have multiple employees hacking clones, as opposed to one dedicated grower carefully selecting cuts. The clone market has become polluted with poor cuts.
First time I came across a mother giving around 50% duds, was a Hindu x Skunk that originated from BlueSky. Now again a second time I have seen it in the Green Crack from BlueSky.
I have to agree that it is very tedious to correct, unless you just ditch the cut all together. I ditched the HK x SK, but I love the Green Crack, it is the closest thing I have to an old school skunk, so I am cutting off any branch's that look not quite right and trashing em, then only selecting clones from the best looking tops...... then if any cuts look odd after rooting I trash them to..... pain in the asz imo.
I had a sickly Chili Kush mother, almost gave up on it. Hit it with a nice solid dose of H2o2..... problem was fixed. Wish it could always be so easy.
Mr^^
I think at least in California we are seeing this a lot more. Some of these large scale clone producers, such as BlueSky, cut so many damn clones every day. As well as have multiple employees hacking clones, as opposed to one dedicated grower carefully selecting cuts. The clone market has become polluted with poor cuts.
First time I came across a mother giving around 50% duds, was a Hindu x Skunk that originated from BlueSky. Now again a second time I have seen it in the Green Crack from BlueSky.
I have to agree that it is very tedious to correct, unless you just ditch the cut all together. I ditched the HK x SK, but I love the Green Crack, it is the closest thing I have to an old school skunk, so I am cutting off any branch's that look not quite right and trashing em, then only selecting clones from the best looking tops...... then if any cuts look odd after rooting I trash them to..... pain in the asz imo.
I had a sickly Chili Kush mother, almost gave up on it. Hit it with a nice solid dose of H2o2..... problem was fixed. Wish it could always be so easy.
Mr^^
R
RNDZL
if we add some relativity, experiential observation and critical thinking we can address the cause, effect and potential ramifications on gardeners
First, in krunchbubbles scenario
if it were genetic drift that were cause DECLINE on several strain over this time, most of which he seems to run in water borne systems, would be triggered by some pretty harsh environmental variables to do so ad it would stand to reason that if this were the case there would be other plant health ramification
I also think that if genetic drifting were so common and pests and diseases so tough to eradicate we wouldn't have so many decade + cuts floating around
now lets examine krunch's other variables
multiple rooms, multiple strains, im sure due to location, CA that he also is exposed to many many agricultural nasties
add to it that he talks about going to clubs as a part of work. How many clones and other plants and growers there bringing all kinds of exposure to other diseases and pests?
I think that yes there is such a think as genetic drift and epigenetic drift and that YES its inheritable to the progeny and we may have experienced it
in fact could this how the hermie trait got reinforced in some females stressed into throwing survival nanners?
as far as pest and disease management, I have no heard enough about Krunch's mom, veg or quarantine sections of his operation, but I would think in his instance its disease
I feel what is missing in 95% of the grows here which are suffering from these calamities is planning for disease and pest management
there is so little emphasis put on understanding that esp in a bigger op if you create a limited ecosystem like a grow room it is going to attract other types of lifeforms. Planning for this management is a critical key
one of the reasons simple synthetic gardening was developed was because its far easier to guarantee in laboratory like conditions the health of an organism and elimination of many of the components that lend to pests and disease
I do not think disease and pest are as impossible to manage as it is to manage the frustrations of people easy money dreams being broken when they realize all the work and risk. This is in no way directed at krunchbubble, i think its the general attitude that people have thus the general notion
"hey pot is easy why worry about disease and pests"
with that said i have to comment on Sam's last post.
While some disease can be carried into the life cycle by seed to the next generation I think we will see as much of that a we see genetic drifting in gardens, at least in the average small indoor american garden
perhaps in large outdoor, wild or cultivated, this occurs at a more regular rate, but breeding to seed I think is a fine tool for the cultivator, especially as a back up to a favored strain. A tool that mother nature has used to get the plant as far as it has come without our help.
that said, many pests and diseases, need juvenile, weak or compromised plant cells to establish
so in the end it, as I see it, it all relates to plant heath, even he possible effects of epigenetic influences
the problem is our perception
the plant gives us successful results even in marginal health and that success became the baseline for plant health
I think to solve the OP's problems he need to develop a plan to
A) keep a healthy back up location for genes before they go into production as Sam had mentioned
B) Have a quarantine, treatment and recovery area.plan for sick and new genetics
I would be very very interested to know what techniques Sam, Head and some of the others who may have very old heirloom genetics, especially in regards to treatment
thank you in advance
First, in krunchbubbles scenario
if it were genetic drift that were cause DECLINE on several strain over this time, most of which he seems to run in water borne systems, would be triggered by some pretty harsh environmental variables to do so ad it would stand to reason that if this were the case there would be other plant health ramification
I also think that if genetic drifting were so common and pests and diseases so tough to eradicate we wouldn't have so many decade + cuts floating around
now lets examine krunch's other variables
multiple rooms, multiple strains, im sure due to location, CA that he also is exposed to many many agricultural nasties
add to it that he talks about going to clubs as a part of work. How many clones and other plants and growers there bringing all kinds of exposure to other diseases and pests?
I think that yes there is such a think as genetic drift and epigenetic drift and that YES its inheritable to the progeny and we may have experienced it
in fact could this how the hermie trait got reinforced in some females stressed into throwing survival nanners?
as far as pest and disease management, I have no heard enough about Krunch's mom, veg or quarantine sections of his operation, but I would think in his instance its disease
I feel what is missing in 95% of the grows here which are suffering from these calamities is planning for disease and pest management
there is so little emphasis put on understanding that esp in a bigger op if you create a limited ecosystem like a grow room it is going to attract other types of lifeforms. Planning for this management is a critical key
one of the reasons simple synthetic gardening was developed was because its far easier to guarantee in laboratory like conditions the health of an organism and elimination of many of the components that lend to pests and disease
I do not think disease and pest are as impossible to manage as it is to manage the frustrations of people easy money dreams being broken when they realize all the work and risk. This is in no way directed at krunchbubble, i think its the general attitude that people have thus the general notion
"hey pot is easy why worry about disease and pests"
with that said i have to comment on Sam's last post.
While some disease can be carried into the life cycle by seed to the next generation I think we will see as much of that a we see genetic drifting in gardens, at least in the average small indoor american garden
perhaps in large outdoor, wild or cultivated, this occurs at a more regular rate, but breeding to seed I think is a fine tool for the cultivator, especially as a back up to a favored strain. A tool that mother nature has used to get the plant as far as it has come without our help.
that said, many pests and diseases, need juvenile, weak or compromised plant cells to establish
so in the end it, as I see it, it all relates to plant heath, even he possible effects of epigenetic influences
the problem is our perception
the plant gives us successful results even in marginal health and that success became the baseline for plant health
I think to solve the OP's problems he need to develop a plan to
A) keep a healthy back up location for genes before they go into production as Sam had mentioned
B) Have a quarantine, treatment and recovery area.plan for sick and new genetics
I would be very very interested to know what techniques Sam, Head and some of the others who may have very old heirloom genetics, especially in regards to treatment
thank you in advance
I am familiar with all of that, and still stand by my statement 100%. I did not say noting indicates that it is possible, I said nothing indicates it is the case.
K
kopite
haha fine, then think of it like this, if a seedline has be grown organically throughout its life, then is grown non organically IMO it is already adapted/pre coded to suit an organic enviroment thus will grow well in this with little food etc. somehow it has a memory, soft inheritence if you like... its more than likely it will not grow well in the other condition initially...
kopite
It is not impossible, but it has never been shown to work like you imagine it to, and contradictory mechanisms of inheritance have been observed. Lamarck, soft inheritance and Lamarckism was debunked mid 1800s.
If things worked as you imagine them to, then it would be easily demonstrable, and generally accepted.
If things worked as you imagine them to, then it would be easily demonstrable, and generally accepted.
K
kopite
Then I'm at a loss to explain my own experiances....
http://news.wustl.edu/news/Pages/7408.aspx
http://www.scielo.br/pdf/gmb/v31n2/a01v31n2.pdf
K
kopite
my reading of it is fine Head, point being whilst lamarck was dismissed, many seem to be looking back into it. no smoke without fire so to say
Edit: I presume you were replying when I added the 2nd article.
Kopite
Wasn't Mendel's work laid idol for decades?
K
kopite
indeed for 34 odd years, like many others !!
comon Kopite,,,,,
hay Sam....im lovin the way you keep track of us,,,we need your guidence!
@Head
@Hoos
yeh man,,,,at first Darwin got slated!!,,,all peepes who believe in darwin are actualy Neo-Darwinians,,,,,,,
Darwin`s theory of Monkeys turning into Man got debuked this year!!,,,,,,,the pre humanoid "Adi" found in etheopia sealed the coffin for Neo Darwinians!!!,,,,,
Lamarck is retro,,,,,
ya know Lamarck published his book the day Darwin was born,,,
,,,,,hay Sam
....im lovin the way you keep track of us,,,we need your guidence!@Head@Hoosyeh man,,,,at first Darwin got slated!!,,,all peepes who believe in darwin are actualy Neo-Darwinians,,,,,,,
Darwin`s theory of Monkeys turning into Man got debuked this year!!,,,,,,,the pre humanoid "Adi" found in etheopia sealed the coffin for Neo Darwinians!!!,,,,,
Lamarck is retro
,,,,,ya know Lamarck published his book the day Darwin was born,,,
