Genetic Drift is it real?

[GeorgeSmiley]

bulbs are changed after 2 grows (veg) and 3 grows flowering.. last grow both clones n seeds grown under same lights, and the diff. was easy to spot. the plants from seeds were much healthier.

we have 2 mums from which we take cuttings, and had 2 ladies from seeds. all the pheno's appear tobe very similar..

Exactly what I was wondering thanks. I just don't get the cutting of a cutting thing..... I mean the whole medical scene on the west coast is clone, clone, of a clones clone lol

My buddy's blueberry is the same today as it was 5 years ago, except it yields better now and he takes clones after flower starts. Just never heard of it.... very interesting.

 

[GreenintheThumb]

It yields better because after 5 years he has it dialed better than ever.

 

[zachrockbadenof]

Exactly what I was wondering thanks. I just don't get the cutting of a cutting thing..... I mean the whole medical scene on the west coast is clone, clone, of a clones clone lol

My buddy's blueberry is the same today as it was 5 years ago, except it yields better now and he takes clones after flower starts. Just never heard of it.... very interesting.

a friend thought maybe its in the breeding... i dunno... if a plant from seed is growing fine, i take a cuttin of it , root it, keep it as a mum, when i take cuttings from the mum , they should be exact dup's of the orig plant... very strange...

 

[Babbabud]

I dont think so

I dont think so

New vegetative growth on a mother plant will remain consistant throughout it's life.
However, taking a clone then, cloning from that clone to make more clones would promote drift.

Taking new clones from the original provides you with a pure copy.
Cloning from a cloned plant, then taking clones from those clones only invites trouble.

I totally disagree. I dont really keep mothers i just keep sending them through the flower room and recutting... been doing this for years along with many other. I think we should listen to Head and do some reading before we spread mis information.

 

[OrganicOzarks]

I appreciate all of the posts. It has given me so much to read up on that I feel a bit overwhelmed, but that is all part of this that we do. For now I must say that I am going to just go with my original idea and have a mother room. If in my research I find out that I can scrap it then it can just me more room to flower. Again thanks for all of the info. I will be posting pics of my build out starting sometime around Christmas. It will not be huge, but is starting out with 2400 flower in two seperate 2x600 rooms with veg watts being undetermined as of yet. It should end up somewhere around 600. So right about 3000 total. I am tinkering with the idea of adding another smaller space that would allow for 1 x 600 to move it up to 3600. I guess only time will tell. I just hate having all of this gear sitting here, and not being able to get in there yet. Oh well it will be a nice Christmas present to get it started. Hopefully it will be finished by New Years. I will keep you all posted.

 

[Owl Mirror]

I totally disagree. I dont really keep mothers i just keep sending them through the flower room and recutting... been doing this for years along with many other. I think we should listen to Head and do some reading before we spread mis information.

I'm always willing to listen and learn.
I've just always heard the practice of making a copy of a copy eventually leads to a breakdown of the gene's.

http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/elsi/cloning.shtml#problems

http://www.time.com/time/archive/collections/0,21428,c_cloning,00.shtml

Understandably, animal cloning is more complex yet, the indications from these experiments is that something gets lost in the process.
I may be way off base but, at this time that is how I view it.

I do clone some of my plants but, I normally grow them out so I have a crop of uniform plants. I haven't been growing long enough to retain a plant over many generations.

I'm curious to understand, what if I took four clones, separated them and grew them under different conditions.
One under the sun, another under CFL flouro's, yet another under a 400w HPS and the fourth under a 1000w HPS.
They are grown out and clones taken. Those clones are grown under exact conditions as their parent. Would all four sets of clones remain the exact same over time or would they be altered due to the growing environment?

Personally, I enjoy popping open new seeds to find what new wonders can be found inside. Even if the quality and yield differ from crop to crop, I welcome the diversity.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

I'm always willing to listen and learn.
I've just always heard the practice of making a copy of a copy eventually leads to a breakdown of the gene's.

http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/elsi/cloning.shtml#problems

http://www.time.com/time/archive/collections/0,21428,c_cloning,00.shtml

Understandably, animal cloning is more complex yet, the indications from these experiments is that something gets lost in the process.
I may be way off base but, at this time that is how I view it.

You are way off base... Taking a cutting from a plant is a vastly different thing from cloning an animal.

I do clone some of my plants but, I normally grow them out so I have a crop of uniform plants. I haven't been growing long enough to retain a plant over many generations.

I'm curious to understand, what if I took four clones, separated them and grew them under different conditions.
One under the sun, another under CFL flouro's, yet another under a 400w HPS and the fourth under a 1000w HPS.
They are grown out and clones taken. Those clones are grown under exact conditions as their parent. Would all four sets of clones remain the exact same over time or would they be altered due to the growing environment?

The genome would remain exactly the same (barring mutation), though there probably would be differences in the epigenome. Remember, though, that epigenetic changes are reversible.

Personally, I enjoy popping open new seeds to find what new wonders can be found inside. Even if the quality and yield differ from crop to crop, I welcome the diversity.

Me too, but I also enjoy keeping my elites.

 

[Owl Mirror]

You are way off base... Taking a cutting from a plant is a vastly different thing from cloning an animal.The genome would remain exactly the same (barring mutation), though there probably would be differences in the epigenome. Remember, though, that epigenetic changes are reversible.

Me too, but I also enjoy keeping my elites.

Had to look up that big word ;>}

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenesis_(biology)

How can anyone be certain what is going on at the cellular level throughout generations of plants?
When done intelligently, breeding between males and females offers vigor and diversity.
While there may not be anything wrong with making copies of copies, I think we lose something.

I haven't been growing long enough to find an elite so, maybe I'll change my mind down the road ;>}

This may be a silly question but, if I have an established clone-only clone, can I breed safely with it?
If I keep a clone of the male, can I use it to pollinate the plants from these created seeds?
I guess what I'm getting at is that this elite clone-mother you might be holding on to may be bested by one of her offspring.
Simply taking cutting after cutting will never allow you to discover the next gem.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Had to look up that big word ;>}

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenesis_(biology)

How can anyone be certain what is going on at the cellular level throughout generations of plants?

cuttings are not generations...
Cuttings are all branches of the same plant which grow roots to allow the branch to keep growing... aside from mutation there is no mechanism by which the 'drift' would occur...
there are cuttings of grapes that have been propagated as cuttings of cuttings for nearly 2000 years...

When done intelligently, breeding between males and females offers vigor and diversity.
While there may not be anything wrong with making copies of copies, I think we lose something.

but we don't loose anything... You are operating under a false premise...

I haven't been growing long enough to find an elite so, maybe I'll change my mind down the road ;>}

This may be a silly question but, if I have an established clone-only clone, can I breed safely with it?
If I keep a clone of the male, can I use it to pollinate the plants from these created seeds?
I guess what I'm getting at is that this elite clone-mother you might be holding on to may be bested by one of her offspring.
Simply taking cutting after cutting will never allow you to discover the next gem.

I have been doing exactly that for years...
I breed elites, and I breed with elites...
Seed grows are to look for plants worth keeping and/or breeding...
Growing from cuttings is for production...

 

[GreenintheThumb]

Owl Mirror

No offense, but you post a lot of opinions for someone with such a fuzzy understanding of the facts. I've seen you post about 4 bad baseless opinions in threads this week alone.

 

[Owl Mirror]

Seed grows are to look for plants worth keeping and/or breeding...
Growing from cuttings is for production...

Perhaps my not growing for production purposes, clouds my views.
Since I'm allowed to possess 2.5 ounces at any given time, I only grow that amount through harvest and cure. While that crop is becoming 'usable' I bring more plants to fruition within weeks.
If I smoke 2.5 ounces in a two-week period, I try to harvest every two weeks.
I realize a commercial grower has other concerns.
What about the guy growing the same clone, over and over inside his closet?
Sure, you may have a consistent supply of marijuana yet, wouldn't it get boring after some time?


I can see the utility of growing cuttings yet, I would miss the excitement and wonder of watching each new seedling develop. A brand new life, brought forth in to the world, unique unto itself.

I experience a similar reaction as seeing a cute puppy, a frolicking kitten. I smile ;<}

It's not the same feeling, seeing new growth starting at the top of a rooted clone.

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

Cannabis doesn't suffer from successive 'generations' of cuttings any more than hops or any other annual commonly propagated by similar methods. I'm surprised that this persists as a serious discussion. I can't say for sure if these kinds of myths get invented by folks like Mr. Rosenthal, because personally I haven't read any of his books. In any case, it's up to the grower to crank up his bogosity meter when confronted by information that fails to consider standard horticulture.

 

[SneakySneaky]

I was under the impression this would be genetic degradarion more than drift. As per my anthropology and sociology classes I was under the impression that genetic drift is where over the course of a long period of time the genetics of a society/population shift towards one end of the scale by random selection ie the tribe gets taller bc of reproduction.

If you treat your mothers like shit you'll slowly degrade your plant to where your clones aren't as vigerous or yeild as much as when u first got them. I would call this grower error not genetic drift. Genetic degrrdation sounds about correct also. I've seen a video where shantibaba has a mother plant that's 16 years old so it can be done.

Depends on ur setup to if you'll need moms. I got 6k with 6 4x4s and I just perpetually clone no wasting space w mamma plants. You can have one plant to give u 10 clones a week, or u can just take 1 clone off your preexisting 10 babies and accomplish the same thing.

 

[Babbabud]

Some of us fall in love with certain cuttings and want to run them more times in the future . But that doesnt mean we dont grow seeds too

 

[magiccannabus]

Saffron flowers are all clones. Every single one of them, and they've been cloning that same strain for at least a couple hundred years.....

 

[Hydro-Soil]

I think genetic drift is brought on by man made causes.............i.e. stress, over fert, etc.

Bunz

Yep.... ya know those clones that just never look as healthy as the others? You know, the ones you just throw out. Yeah... don't use those as a Mum to preserve the genetics... it's most likely been compromised already.

A clone is NOT a copy.... it is the same plant with new roots.


Stay Safe!

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

All kinds of commercial plants and crops are propagated as 'clones' or cuttings, some like the Macintosh apple, are a couple hundred years down from the original 'mother'. Should we be worrying about genetic degradation of apples, or is this a problem unique to cannabis?

 

[GreenintheThumb]

You can clone computers?

 

[SOTF420]

I believe that ideally you would only take clones from the top most growth shoots of a donor plant as the side branches have different overall growth characteristics. Just my observation from running a few experiments in size & shape from clones from the same plant. I am guessing there is a genetic explanation for this. A clone from the "top" of the plant is a "top clone", while a clone from a bottom side branch is a bottom side branch clone. They are exact copies of where they come from. Of course a clone rooted and grown out from a side branch will appear to be it's own "top clone" type plant but the buds will be smaller and the shape and size different. Of course you won't notice this phenomena until you have clones from an original seed grown mother. If you plan to keep clones going from clones I would recommend using the clones from the top most part of the plants, not the lower side shoots. Think about a big full grown plant outdoors, and the difference between a big top cola and the much smaller side colas. Same plant, but different parts of it.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

You can clone computers?

you've never heard of pc clones or mac clones?