that's an entirely different topic, and one which has been discussed on boards ad nauseum... you should search and read the threads...
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that's an entirely different topic, and one which has been discussed on boards ad nauseum... you should search and read the threads...
Regarding observations , remember just cause the average human may not be able to observe something it doesn't mean its not there..What if the differences are unobservable by naked eye or at least very hard to observe without running specialized , controlled lab tests? Does this mean they are not there..?
Plus we cant know for sure what happens over a very long period of time , cause humans may be using plant cutting for a veerryy long time but we cant go hundreds of years back , create a 100% controlled and stable environment , take samples , having managed to have kept the environment identical and 100% stable till now and take new samples and run tests..
Remember we probably talk about minute changes that affect how genes are expressed and this could be anything , say if the cut you grow after 20, 30 or 150 years needs 1.5 day more to mature/finish than before in the same exact environment, would you be able to tell the difference?...or attribute that as a grower to epigenetic changes without running DNA match tests beforehand to exclude any mutations to the DNA sequence that have happened over time to the cutting ?
Any change so small would go undetectable outside of a lab and it could be a change regarding absolutely anything in the plant..
"Those saying a thing cannot be done should not be interrupting those doing it... "
Sorry for interrupting lol
You are not the first person to keep and grow clones.. And so that it is clear , I never said that I personally have seen changes in a clones over many years when they are in a good environment.
As I said before I have limited knowledge on the subject of epigenetics and it happened to read some things regarding epigenetics about mammals/humans , thought that similar things might apply to plants as well , and I didn't find something that says otherwise so far.., anyway if its a different case with plants..its all cool , as I said I m not an expert..
I would just love to see a link with some scientific evidence if possible , as I believe the changes (if they exist) could easily be too small to be detectable , at least easily, without specialized equipment or chronic controlled tests.
Plus we cant know for sure what happens over a very long period of time , cause humans may be using plant cutting for a veerryy long time but we cant go hundreds of years back , create a 100% controlled and stable environment , take samples , having managed to have kept the environment identical and 100% stable till now and take new samples and run tests..
Remember we probably talk about minute changes that affect how genes are expressed and this could be anything , say if the cut you grow after 20, 30 or 150 years needs 1.5 day more to mature/finish than before in the same exact environment, would you be able to tell the difference?...or attribute that as a grower to epigenetic changes without running DNA match tests beforehand to exclude any mutations to the DNA sequence that have happened over time to the cutting ?
Any change so small would go undetectable outside of a lab and it could be a change regarding absolutely anything in the plant..
"Those saying a thing cannot be done should not be interrupting those doing it... "
Sorry for interrupting lol
You are not the first person to keep and grow clones.. And so that it is clear , I never said that I personally have seen changes in a clones over many years when they are in a good environment.
As I said before I have limited knowledge on the subject of epigenetics and it happened to read some things regarding epigenetics about mammals/humans , thought that similar things might apply to plants as well , and I didn't find something that says otherwise so far.., anyway if its a different case with plants..its all cool , as I said I m not an expert..
I would just love to see a link with some scientific evidence if possible , as I believe the changes (if they exist) could easily be too small to be detectable , at least easily, without specialized equipment or chronic controlled tests.
A difference that makes no difference might as well be no difference
DING DING DING!
Thank you.... Thank you very much. Grat3fulh3ad.... may you be blessed and get more head than I do. (And that's a LOT. LOL) Very well put.
S
sparkjumper
I had a blockhead pheno I had for four years then I decided to take a break and just got careless and lost her.After 4 years though the erb was the same if not better
"Still wonder what are the real effects of indoor breeding are in the long term regarding the evolution of cannabis." Hmm, lets think about that a sec. It's possible now to take one strain through more than four generations per year indoors...Heh, I can see the headline now; 'Cannabis Enslaves Human Race, Becomes First Earth Species To Achieve Accelerated Evolution!'
guys guys guys
the characteristics attributed to subspecies generally have evolved as a result of geographical distribution or isolation.
the characteristics attributed to subspecies generally have evolved as a result of geographical distribution or isolation.
This pretty much puts the nail in the coffin.
True. Natural selection. Regarding cannabis though, over the years, breeders have been artificially selecting for any number of desired traits (color, yield, potency, indica/sativa high, etc, etc) creating different strains.
And the term 'epigenetics' is being thrown around pretty loosely in this thread. It's just complicating things more than they need to be complicated, and not really relevant to the topic at hand. DNA methlyation, molecular genetics, etc....getting pretty dense. Makes much more sense to talk about environmental factors - and keep epigenetics separate.
As far as clones go, the equation's pretty simple.
Phenotype = genes + environmental factors
Keep environmental factors constant (or near constant). Grow that kush cut under a HPS, and you're more or less guranteed to get the same result time after time. Vary the environment and you might vary the phenotype (not in the indica vs sativa phenotype sense, but in terms of plant height, width, yield, etc). This explains why if you put a particular cut outside it might perform different than under indoor conditions.
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Shan Diego
Wonderful synopsis throughout your posts on this thread. Thank you. I'm tired of folks talking about their beliefs or feelings when talking science. Cite references that actually support your position and explain the proven mechanism of action or you're not thinking straight. I tend to think that this whole concept of clone variance is caused by people getting tired of familiar strains and subsequently they suffer diminishing returns - same as anything else.
Talk about
The love hate relationship with science on these boards sometimes makes me laugh and sometimes frustrates the hell out of me!
If you decide to go clone to clone instead of a mom for your limits, how llong are you thinking you want to grow that cut? 2 years? 10 years? Longer? how in the world is the plant going to change in that time?
I grew my favorite girl for 9 years until I lost her while taking backup cuts while findijng moms. I never made a mother plant in all those years. I grew her alone for a good amount of that time.
Some of us are eating apples while others seem to want oranges here. my crop had more problems when my clones were slow to root.
They had more issues and lacked vigor. Usually the root system just didnt grow as fast and healthy. Woody stemmed cuts can be the same way. I went through periods as long as a year with bad performance but I could always get her right again.
Take quality cuts, get them rooting and growing again as quick as possible and you're good. Dont rely on a slow beat up plant to give you a top yield. The clone isnt changing, its you and the care plus environment you provide that will vary. If you care for plants long enough, you realize that there are good runs and some bad ones, yet a long time gardener will realize why it happened and try to treat em better the next time.
RM
The love hate relationship with science on these boards sometimes makes me laugh and sometimes frustrates the hell out of me!
If you decide to go clone to clone instead of a mom for your limits, how llong are you thinking you want to grow that cut? 2 years? 10 years? Longer? how in the world is the plant going to change in that time?
I grew my favorite girl for 9 years until I lost her while taking backup cuts while findijng moms. I never made a mother plant in all those years. I grew her alone for a good amount of that time.
Some of us are eating apples while others seem to want oranges here. my crop had more problems when my clones were slow to root.
They had more issues and lacked vigor. Usually the root system just didnt grow as fast and healthy. Woody stemmed cuts can be the same way. I went through periods as long as a year with bad performance but I could always get her right again.
Take quality cuts, get them rooting and growing again as quick as possible and you're good. Dont rely on a slow beat up plant to give you a top yield. The clone isnt changing, its you and the care plus environment you provide that will vary. If you care for plants long enough, you realize that there are good runs and some bad ones, yet a long time gardener will realize why it happened and try to treat em better the next time.
RM
ya know,,im not 100% with Head,,,,but he said something very good!!!!
he said something along the lines of.."epigenetic reactions are a major function of the epigenome",,,,,,
honestly:::if you guys turn a blind eye to the epigenome,,,more fool you,,,,sorry thats just how i feel!!
an epigenetic reaction WILL result in selection,,,dont kidyaself!!,,,remember C.cannabis is a subspecies,,,,think about what it means to be a subspecies,,,,,think about HOW oure beloved traits came into existance,,,,weed didnt allwasy taste like pineapples,,,,
it once was hemp,,
he said something along the lines of.."epigenetic reactions are a major function of the epigenome",,,,,,
honestly:::if you guys turn a blind eye to the epigenome,,,more fool you,,,,sorry thats just how i feel!!
an epigenetic reaction WILL result in selection,,,dont kidyaself!!,,,remember C.cannabis is a subspecies,,,,think about what it means to be a subspecies,,,,,think about HOW oure beloved traits came into existance,,,,weed didnt allwasy taste like pineapples,,,,
it once was hemp,,
Once again I feel the term epigenetics if being thrown around without much understanding. I still feel it's not really relevant to what we're talking about. Every time your cells divide, and your DNA replicates, there is an "epigenetic reaction." The new DNA strand has less than methyl groups than the original. Not really relevant to the matter at hand. Plus, everything related to epigenetics, all the sources in here, are from twin studies or mammals... nothing related to botany.
Weed didn't always taste like pineapples because we artificially selected for the traits we desire. We selected for certain mutations, certain changes in the DNA - the genome - that produced desirable phenotypes. There wasn't any natural selection going on. The cannabis plant wasn't responding to any environmental pressures. Every thing produced by breeding has been a result of human intervention.
It's really not much more - and it doesn't have to be - complicated than that.
subspecies are a result of gene and enviroment interaction,,,,,,,,,,,,
that sounds like epigenetics to me!!
.......
ya cant expect to keep the sub-expreshions, when you remove the organism from enviroment that premoted the novel trais in the first place!!
imo,,,,the concept of penetrance masks the fact that the full potential of a phenotype has not been achieved,,,,i also think genetic drift is questionable too
imo,,,,when organisms adapt to an enviroment through selective breeding they dont lose genes,
i just think,,,i think they gain something,, they dont lose it!!
that sounds like epigenetics to me!!
.......ya cant expect to keep the sub-expreshions, when you remove the organism from enviroment that premoted the novel trais in the first place!!
imo,,,,the concept of penetrance masks the fact that the full potential of a phenotype has not been achieved,,,,i also think genetic drift is questionable too
imo,,,,when organisms adapt to an enviroment through selective breeding they dont lose genes,
i just think,,,i think they gain something,, they dont lose it!!
MR. Diamond
New member
I had a house fire and had to put all my mothers in black plastic bags for two weeks.
I had a house fire and had to put all my mothers in black plastic bags for two weeks.
Most of my plants are of extremely strong genetics, bred and selected for handling all sorts of stress. But I had / have a Nirvana Feminized Rhino plant in there. I also had cuttings of it and cuttings of some of my other strains getting ready for my next cycle.
Well, the Rhino's grew all weird. Not like they ever grew before. And the mother now in shock, would always grow pistils at ever node. I was too scared to take cuttings and grow her again because she was obviously still in shock.
8 months passed by, still the same ... and now root bound. So I decide to pull the mother out and transplant her in a larger container. Then I trim off all the large growth and leave just the new sprouts that haven't developed the pistils yet.
After 8 months of shock ... it just needed to be transplanted. Her clones are great now and she produces like she did before. I don't notice any difference. There MAY be some ... but can't tell.
.....TGA needs to stabilize their lines. Great phenos come out SOMETIMES. More crap comes out more often. I grow and have grown plenty of Subcools gear. It's always great to throw one of his vigorous F1's into my breeding program. But I breed as much out as possible ... besides the desired traits. Most of his seeds produce plants that STRETCH like crazy...... so far ... that's what I've seen.
They are great people though. I know Mr. Spliff and the NW team distributors. I think you guys are doing great things. I can't wait to watch you get even better.
DOPE magazine is Dope.
Mr Diamond
I love seeds.
I had a house fire and had to put all my mothers in black plastic bags for two weeks.
Most of my plants are of extremely strong genetics, bred and selected for handling all sorts of stress. But I had / have a Nirvana Feminized Rhino plant in there. I also had cuttings of it and cuttings of some of my other strains getting ready for my next cycle.
Well, the Rhino's grew all weird. Not like they ever grew before. And the mother now in shock, would always grow pistils at ever node. I was too scared to take cuttings and grow her again because she was obviously still in shock.
8 months passed by, still the same ... and now root bound. So I decide to pull the mother out and transplant her in a larger container. Then I trim off all the large growth and leave just the new sprouts that haven't developed the pistils yet.
After 8 months of shock ... it just needed to be transplanted. Her clones are great now and she produces like she did before. I don't notice any difference. There MAY be some ... but can't tell.
.....TGA needs to stabilize their lines. Great phenos come out SOMETIMES. More crap comes out more often. I grow and have grown plenty of Subcools gear. It's always great to throw one of his vigorous F1's into my breeding program. But I breed as much out as possible ... besides the desired traits. Most of his seeds produce plants that STRETCH like crazy...... so far ... that's what I've seen.
They are great people though. I know Mr. Spliff and the NW team distributors. I think you guys are doing great things. I can't wait to watch you get even better.
DOPE magazine is Dope.
Mr Diamond
I love seeds.
MR. Diamond
New member
Stable Genetics. Which breeder is best?
Stable Genetics. Which breeder is best?
I want the most stable strains that produce plants from seed that most of them look the same and smell the same with slight variation. I'm sick of all these F1 breeders selling packs of seeds for almost $200 bucks. Or even $100.
Do a little more work first before charging that much and expecting us to do all the work for you.
F1's should be free and we trade you back the best ones so you can further stabilize the strain hmmmmmm
Mr. Diamond
I love seeds.
Stable Genetics. Which breeder is best?
I want the most stable strains that produce plants from seed that most of them look the same and smell the same with slight variation. I'm sick of all these F1 breeders selling packs of seeds for almost $200 bucks. Or even $100.
Do a little more work first before charging that much and expecting us to do all the work for you.
F1's should be free and we trade you back the best ones so you can further stabilize the strain hmmmmmm
Mr. Diamond
I love seeds.
MR. Diamond
New member
Didn't mean to post that. Don't see an erase button. I wanted to post that as a question in the forum. :/
Mr. Diamond
I love seeds.
Mr. Diamond
I love seeds.
Not that I don't understand the Wiki's take on Genetic Drift I do..
Perhaps genetic drift is the wrong word.
Let me tell you what I have found over the years and perhaps you can define what this is exactly?
Personally and I don't see anyone doing any better as a grower and this is what I have noticed.
When you first get your so-called clone only strain from whoever it's stronge healthy no mites ect.
As time goes on everytime you buy these clones from the grower they get weaker and weaker till everytime you run into this problem with every single grower and every single clone only strain. ??
What is this? Plant senescence and cell death?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_senescence
... Is it the strain?
For example there used to be some really great Purple Kush here in BC now you would be hard pressed to find anything even close to what we had. Same with the Trainwreck which everyone loves!
So perhaps you can explain what exactly this might be? lol..Stay safe bra good to see you back online!! headband 707
subspecies are a result of gene and enviroment interaction,,,,,,,,,,,,
that sounds like epigenetics to me!!
ya cant expect to keep the sub-expreshions, when you remove the organism from enviroment that premoted the novel trais in the first place!!
imo,,,,the concept of penetrance masks the fact that the full potential of a phenotype has not been achieved,,,,i also think genetic drift is questionable too
imo,,,,when organisms adapt to an enviroment through selective breeding they dont lose genes,
i just think,,,i think they gain something,, they dont lose it!!
Take plants out of their natural environment and bring them inside you lose not gain with the plant.. Just look at the pothoes leaf brought to Canada.. It's about 3 inches wide but in it's natural environment it's over one foot sometimes bigger,, headband 707
S
SeaMaiden
Take plants out of their natural environment and bring them inside you lose not gain with the plant.. Just look at the pothoes leaf brought to Canada.. It's about 3 inches wide but in it's natural environment it's over one foot sometimes bigger,, headband 707
I see this is an old thread, but you've just described what I would always see. I have houseplanted pothos plants, and the biggest leaves would get maybe 4" across. But the pothos growing up the side of my grandparents' multistory home in Puerto Rico? Foot to feet across. And the vine? Thick as my thigh.
However, I also know that this happens to at least one vertebrate organism, goldfish, if not many more Cypriniids, perhaps Salmoniids..? I don't know, but I do know that it's common for the animal to not achieve maximum size potential if it's not housed properly.
Obviously taking anything out of it's natural environment and making an artifical one is going to effect the outcome of growth.
I thought we had an amazing forest here in BC really big trees etc.
Then I went to Costa Rica and the trees were twice as big as our. I also seen the tropical house plants that we have been growing here for many years and the difference in size was amazing imvho.
You will see a growth here in Canada but nothing like where the plant comes from and how well it does in these particular climates.
Therefore it is my belief that you just can't get all the phenos out of a plant until you bring it to a perfect environment/sun/humidity/temp. headband 707
