Fungus gnats or WINGED ROOT APHIDS???

[ItsGrowTime]

I think what SM-90 does is keep away the root pathogens that are brought in by the bugs. Im convinced that the bugs themselves aren't the most damaging part of this equation. It's the fact that they let pathogens attack the roots with little defense. That is what causes the deficiences (dying roots) and the loss of yield. SM-90 defends the root so the bugs themselves aren't very damaging and likely makes their living environment less-than-ideal.

Im doing an experiment on my current crop. While Im battling bugs, Im taking extra care to ensure the roots have the best hydro environment possible so the possible bug damage is minimal. I dropped some cheese on a chiller, a constant nutrient monitor, kick ass air pump, and beneficial microbes. I also added a cycle timer to allow things to dry out more between waterings. The nutes can't be any more perfect! We'll see what happens.

 

[johnnybhang]

I feel that using any concentrated synthesized to control the aphids is going down the wrong road. The focus should be on environmental/soil controls. Finding a reason why they like a certain soil, grow space, etc. Maybe a certain soil/medium holds too much moisture. A certain soil additive that they dislike may curb them. The short term focus is on using imid but its not the long term solution. Root aphids have natural predators/control we just have to implement them.

 

[ItsGrowTime]

I think Im done introducing Imid into my hydro garden as an early stage protective additive. Shortly after it is added to my reservoirs, my plants start reacting to it and start growing strangely. Ive had a mild Tobacco Mosaic Virus infection in my genetics for years but it's never been a big problem. Now, as soon as I add the Imid the TMV freaks out (presumably because Imid is a nicotine/tobacco based chem) and my plants don't like it.

 

[HooT]

Has anyone actually put Bayer Complete Insect Killer into their rez? If so, at what strength. After loosing my NYCD and cleaning everything to the point of almost tearing down the entire fucking building... I found them in my blue berry a friend gave me... along with thrips....yeah!!! I am so tired...

Hoot

 

[RetroGrow]

I think Im done introducing Imid into my hydro garden as an early stage protective additive. Shortly after it is added to my reservoirs, my plants start reacting to it and start growing strangely. Ive had a mild Tobacco Mosaic Virus infection in my genetics for years but it's never been a big problem. Now, as soon as I add the Imid the TMV freaks out (presumably because Imid is a nicotine/tobacco based chem) and my plants don't like it.

For TMV, use Physan 20, which has been proven to knock it out.

 

[ItsGrowTime]

For TMV, use Physan 20, which has been proven to knock it out.

Good call. I've been thinking about trying Physan as a foliar this crop, in case those "orbs" are some sort of fungi. It's good to know it may help my TMV issues. Ill do it tomorrow.

 

[spleebale]

I believe that most of the plant immunity boosters - Bud Factor X, Messenger, and ESPECIALLY the yellow bottle ["BLOOM" company - Advanced Floriculture] 2-part immune booster and probably also aspirin [one 325 mg tablet/gallon spray or 5 gal water] - will help combat almost all viruses and other pathogens (leaf AND root-born diseases etc). Aspirin is probably the cheapest, Bud Factor X and the yellow bottle immune booster are probably the most effective and messenger is a combination of effective and reasonably priced (and uses the harapin protein, which I believe is not in any of the others). I have had really good results from ALL of them. Messenger (and possibly others too) is also supposed to bring on earlier flower-set and harvest among other things. I HIGHLY recommend using SAR immune boosters whether you have problems or not!

 

[spleebale]

Also: For all the people still battling root aphids - I CANNOT express enough: DO NOT DESPAIR! I promise, it feels so much worse when you have them (like a curse that will never go away) than it does immediately after you start to effectively manage them.

The worst problem is that each round of growing takes so long that if you choose to keep going with an infected grow you will inevitably be dealing with the problem for 2-4 months... pain. Once you can start from scratch, treating YOUNG plants with imid (or acephate if you are careful and use it when they are just WEE babies) and then using some sort of secondary control along the way (nematodes, Spectracide, Pyganic, Azatrol/Azamax, heavy Bti doses) you will be in a different world... One where growing is fun and does not make you want to rip out your hair and tear down your house. Even if it feels like you will be "behind" - you will be magically transported to a place where you have happy plants coming along and you don't hate life every day - and you are likely to catch up to where you thought you were (sick plants that are already a month old are not the same as healthy plants that are a month old - they are worth less/have less potential than clones that are popping and ready to move).

A few notes: It begins to feel like they are EVERYWHERE, but do not go overboard with bleaching and scrubbing! They are not the terminator! Everyone seems to go into this "I saw something!" mode (self included!), where their whole perspective gets narrowed to whether or not there are any aphids alive in their house/grow (as though the goal is 0 aphids and you have to remain vigilant to see if there is a single one alive somewhere). Do not get me wrong, it is important to be aware of their potential numbers and location, but the most important thing is "HOW ARE THE PLANTS DOING?" - Some people have aphids the WHOLE TIME and do not know it, pulling beautiful harvests without ANY imid or anything. Likewise, you can kill EVERY aphid in your house/grow and still have plants that will not drink or move, showing signs of hating life. KILLING ALL APHIDS is not the main goal. HAVING HEALTHY PLANTS is the main goal. (Focusing on the aphids too much leads you into a mentality that often harms the plants with excessive treatments/heavy waterings etc.) If you have healthy plants from the beginning and use proper prevention, soon you will have NO root aphids and you will not have to scour every last nook and cranny to make sure; any last stragglers that find your plant will die from one of your treatments or another and after a few rounds of proper preventative maintenance you will likely be completely RA-free. After application of imid or some other control, managing plant health becomes far more important than killing every remaining bug. The further into bloom you are, the less bug-killing will do for you and the more you need to focus on plant health.


Using products on time (using a systemic like imid early, using another control soon after in repeat applications 3-6 days apart) is far more important than scrubbing everything. Using a SAR booster will go a lot further than extensive measures to eliminate RA-born diseases. I do not think scrubbing each piece of equipment is necessary or a good use of time either. The dishwasher is plenty effective for cleaning aphids and eggs off net pots or mini-pots/keg cups etc - especially if it has a heated dry mode. Spraying out a tray or reservoir (if you blast all of the surfaces with a hose etc) will almost certainly remove them too - besides, they are not likely to lay eggs on trays or outside the root zone in general. There MAY end up being an aphid somewhere lurking in your house/grow, but I think it is more likely to be in the carpet near the wall or on the ceiling somewhere than in equipment you spray off with water; seriously scrubbing things and heavily bleaching everything is overboard in my opinion, unless there was a bad fungal or viral outbreak too. Other than for that and for satisfying OCD tendencies and making for a nice looking grow, I find scrubbing to be almost entirely a waste of time.

The story is the same with just about any pest (mites, thrips, PM, root aphids, pythium): you cannot guarantee you got EVERY LAST ONE unless you move, get all new equipment and do not have anything else that is contaminated that is coming with you (i.e. the grow was not in your house with all your stuff where anything can hitch a ride). The key is proper management (not letting them ever start building a population). If you know how to properly manage a potential issue, it will remain a potential issue and never manifest as a problem.

It is always best to REDUCE the population as MUCH AS REASONABLY POSSIBLE, and that is one of the biggest aspects of scrapping a badly infected round - it is easier to keep bugs off than to kill every last one of a large population. However, it is important to recognize that there may still be a few nasties around. Because of this it is important use preventative measures (boosting plant immunity, using deterrents where appropriate - trap plants, tanglefoot, diatomaceous earth) and early prophylactic use of chemicals or biological controls as necessary - imid if worried about RAs, serenade for leaf problems, companion or Mycostop etc for root protection, and possibly Exel systemic fungicide for added protection in heavy-risk situations) and you generally won't ever SEE a problem - your potential issue essentially won't ever become a problem.

Fighting a problem once you have it is NEVER easy. Preventing a problem when you know what it is and your plants are still healthy can be very easy (with almost any problem).

DO NOT DESPAIR! If you can POSSIBLY afford it (even on borrowed money) THROW AWAY YOUR INFECTED GROW AS SOON AS YOU BECOME DEPRESSED ABOUT IT (if it isn't turning around/isn't looking good etc). It will not get better soon and it is NOT a representation of your abilities - you got caught off guard and it happens to the best among us. Start over clean, use prevention on time and you WILL have a healthy grow! Catch the downward spiral: as soon as you feel upset about your grow - TOSS it. Start over again with CONFIDENCE that it will work well this time. AS much as it feels like a curse, if you start with healthy plants and take the appropriate control measures, give them a happy environment and use reasonable grow methods you will not have the same problems. Do not let the frustration of an unhealthy grow make you feel like you can't grow. Start fresh, keep them happy, use preventative methods and YOU WILL BE FINE. Your grow will be happy again!

-WB

 

[idoreallytry]

azamax, sm-90, and bu buster o and i knocked htem way back havent smashed one in a few days,,,peace and thx for all the help,,,

 

[Neo 420]

Also: For all the people still battling root aphids - I CANNOT express enough: DO NOT DESPAIR! I promise, it feels so much worse when you have them (like a curse that will never go away) than it does immediately after you start to effectively manage them.

The worst problem is that each round of growing takes so long that if you choose to keep going with an infected grow you will inevitably be dealing with the problem for 2-4 months... pain. Once you can start from scratch, treating YOUNG plants with imid (or acephate if you are careful and use it when they are just WEE babies) and then using some sort of secondary control along the way (nematodes, Spectracide, Pyganic, Azatrol/Azamax, heavy Bti doses) you will be in a different world... One where growing is fun and does not make you want to rip out your hair and tear down your house. Even if it feels like you will be "behind" - you will be magically transported to a place where you have happy plants coming along and you don't hate life every day - and you are likely to catch up to where you thought you were (sick plants that are already a month old are not the same as healthy plants that are a month old - they are worth less/have less potential than clones that are popping and ready to move).

A few notes: It begins to feel like they are EVERYWHERE, but do not go overboard with bleaching and scrubbing! They are not the terminator! Everyone seems to go into this "I saw something!" mode (self included!), where their whole perspective gets narrowed to whether or not there are any aphids alive in their house/grow (as though the goal is 0 aphids and you have to remain vigilant to see if there is a single one alive somewhere). Do not get me wrong, it is important to be aware of their potential numbers and location, but the most important thing is "HOW ARE THE PLANTS DOING?" - Some people have aphids the WHOLE TIME and do not know it, pulling beautiful harvests without ANY imid or anything. Likewise, you can kill EVERY aphid in your house/grow and still have plants that will not drink or move, showing signs of hating life. KILLING ALL APHIDS is not the main goal. HAVING HEALTHY PLANTS is the main goal. (Focusing on the aphids too much leads you into a mentality that often harms the plants with excessive treatments/heavy waterings etc.) If you have healthy plants from the beginning and use proper prevention, soon you will have NO root aphids and you will not have to scour every last nook and cranny to make sure; any last stragglers that find your plant will die from one of your treatments or another and after a few rounds of proper preventative maintenance you will likely be completely RA-free. After application of imid or some other control, managing plant health becomes far more important than killing every remaining bug. The further into bloom you are, the less bug-killing will do for you and the more you need to focus on plant health.


Using products on time (using a systemic like imid early, using another control soon after in repeat applications 3-6 days apart) is far more important than scrubbing everything. Using a SAR booster will go a lot further than extensive measures to eliminate RA-born diseases. I do not think scrubbing each piece of equipment is necessary or a good use of time either. The dishwasher is plenty effective for cleaning aphids and eggs off net pots or mini-pots/keg cups etc - especially if it has a heated dry mode. Spraying out a tray or reservoir (if you blast all of the surfaces with a hose etc) will almost certainly remove them too - besides, they are not likely to lay eggs on trays or outside the root zone in general. There MAY end up being an aphid somewhere lurking in your house/grow, but I think it is more likely to be in the carpet near the wall or on the ceiling somewhere than in equipment you spray off with water; seriously scrubbing things and heavily bleaching everything is overboard in my opinion, unless there was a bad fungal or viral outbreak too. Other than for that and for satisfying OCD tendencies and making for a nice looking grow, I find scrubbing to be almost entirely a waste of time.

The story is the same with just about any pest (mites, thrips, PM, root aphids, pythium): you cannot guarantee you got EVERY LAST ONE unless you move, get all new equipment and do not have anything else that is contaminated that is coming with you (i.e. the grow was not in your house with all your stuff where anything can hitch a ride). The key is proper management (not letting them ever start building a population). If you know how to properly manage a potential issue, it will remain a potential issue and never manifest as a problem.

It is always best to REDUCE the population as MUCH AS REASONABLY POSSIBLE, and that is one of the biggest aspects of scrapping a badly infected round - it is easier to keep bugs off than to kill every last one of a large population. However, it is important to recognize that there may still be a few nasties around. Because of this it is important use preventative measures (boosting plant immunity, using deterrents where appropriate - trap plants, tanglefoot, diatomaceous earth) and early prophylactic use of chemicals or biological controls as necessary - imid if worried about RAs, serenade for leaf problems, companion or Mycostop etc for root protection, and possibly Exel systemic fungicide for added protection in heavy-risk situations) and you generally won't ever SEE a problem - your potential issue essentially won't ever become a problem.

Fighting a problem once you have it is NEVER easy. Preventing a problem when you know what it is and your plants are still healthy can be very easy (with almost any problem).

DO NOT DESPAIR! If you can POSSIBLY afford it (even on borrowed money) THROW AWAY YOUR INFECTED GROW AS SOON AS YOU BECOME DEPRESSED ABOUT IT (if it isn't turning around/isn't looking good etc). It will not get better soon and it is NOT a representation of your abilities - you got caught off guard and it happens to the best among us. Start over clean, use prevention on time and you WILL have a healthy grow! Catch the downward spiral: as soon as you feel upset about your grow - TOSS it. Start over again with CONFIDENCE that it will work well this time. AS much as it feels like a curse, if you start with healthy plants and take the appropriate control measures, give them a happy environment and use reasonable grow methods you will not have the same problems. Do not let the frustration of an unhealthy grow make you feel like you can't grow. Start fresh, keep them happy, use preventative methods and YOU WILL BE FINE. Your grow will be happy again!

-WB

I must say Spleebale, you are 100% RIGHT ON THE MONEY!! I was a victim of the root aphids which left me with a harvest that was 2 weeks early and badly damaged. It came out merely decent but was no where near what I can and have done in the past before. I read this entire thread with some portions twice and three time. I had to grip with my first real disaster of a harvest (beside my first grow, a 5 -7 years small scale experience) I lightly scrubbed the room (tables, utensils, hoses) with physan 20 and bought the bayer fruit and citrus IMID product. I then weeks later, received ice clones from a friend that vegged them for me while I cleaned and remodeled my gr, that I put with my new Bubba Kush mom (which i inoculated with the bayer) in the veg section and the clones had aphids AND PM!!! I was pissed like hell!!. Mind you I picked up 6 clones from various location in the bay and had them vegging in the flower area but I inoculated with the IMID. (Notice I say inoculated and this is btw is all in the same room.) I threw away all the prize winning ice clones I received and put the BK mom in my backyard. The clones were in my possession 2 day before I got rid of them. (That will never happen again) I sprayed the clones and mom with dafinal or daficon (cant remeber the name) and the clones never slipped a heartbeat. They are still vegging right now and will be ready to flower in another 2 or 3 weeks. (2 to 2.5 feet) The mom went down south but recovered and is doing quite well now. I spay them with ortho insecticidal spray when I get the heebee jeebies and will inoculate with IMID again a week before flower. I am hunting for more clones now before I start the flower cycle and no longer fear aphids or their viruses because I now have a solid pest management guide thanks to this thread. I would of never knew I had root aphids if I would have never read this thread. I would of been chasing my deficiencies till no end. Point is use the Imid, follow with a fungus/insecticidal spray, be diligent on what you allow to enter your GR and this will be a bump in the road. You can check my progress in the journal I create when I go into flower. Thank you for listening in on N-E-O radio.



And I'm hunting for four clones for this puppy


This and vertical lightning will hopefully do me some good yields in my post aphid era...Good luck all!!!

 

[wally150]

A)How bad was your infestation and what effects have you observed in your plants/grow?

didnt see any fliers. just micros walking all over my soil and on my pots

B)Have you grown the same way before with success or with the same problems? Have you grown a different way before with success or the same problems?

i have grown the same way for the past year and never noticed little bugs crawling on my soil and on my pots. past grows hvae been successful until my last grow. the plants showed cal/mag def. or a nute def. that couldnt be fixed. early yellowing early in flower and poor yields. didnt see any bugs though.

C)Have you treated them before (if so, how and what were your results/conclusions)

when i first noticed them i hit them with the 50/50 mix of iso and h2o and it killed the ones on top of the soil, but they were back shortly after they spray. then i stepped up to Safer insecticidal soap with similar results to the alcohol water mix. i decided to put diatamaceous earth on the soil and put double sided tape around my pots. it stopped em from getting to the top soil, but they were still crawling on my pots, just not able to get up to my plants.

after seeing this thread and reading through all the pages of it i decided to go get some bayer complete insect control, applied yesterday at 30ml/gal with 10-15% runoff, and 10 hours later, instant improvement. didnt see any more walking on the pots or on top of the soil (removed the DE). also i sprayed down the entire tent with alcohol/water just incase some were hiding.

im 3 weeks into veg so i decided it would be better to just hit em hard and fast then try to restart the whole grow. i plan on hitting them again with the bayer in 4 or 5 days and then i want to follow up with occasionally watering with some Safer Insecticidal Soap mixed in. Also i want to get some nematodes to apply in 10 days or so.

ANY RECOMMENDATIONS FOR WHAT TYPE OF NEMATODES TO USE AND WHERE TO ORDER ONLINE? i have no experience using beneficial nematodes.

D)What type of medium/nutrients and what type of setup (hand water, ebb/flow etc)

soil grower. 3 gallon pots with fox farm ocean forest soil. havent applied any nutes yet because of the soil, but was gonna start up on botanicare cal/mag, liquid karma, sweet, and the pure blend bloom (and probably veg now that im using the bayer)




again, does anyone have recommendations for nematodes?

to you spleebale: cant find yellow bottle immune 2-part system anywhere, or the messenger. bud factor x is a bit expensive for me....... any links?

 

[Neo 420]

Just thought I would add that my root aphid problem is completely over. There are no fliers, no gnats or any other problems going on in the garden at this time. The IMID as well as the secondary treatments with Spinosaid, Mosquito bits & thuricide have eliminated all issues.

After all this time all my plants are healthy and recovered. I have new healthy cuttings and all is well.

Its good to see more horror stories develop into success stories. This is definitely a learning experience that will make me a better grower. I can't give enough thanks to the enormous amount of information in this thread and the OP who gave awareness.

Reading this entire thread maybe quite a journey but is highly recommended due to most of the information is there. Its just not grouped together on one page.

 

[wally150]

Reading this entire thread maybe quite a journey but is highly recommended due to most of the information is there. Its just not grouped together on one page.

if i make it to the end of my grow successfully it will be because of this thread. it was well worth the hours it took to read through EVERY single page of this thread.

 

[spleebale]

Sorry - I said the Yellow Bottle company was "Advanced Floriculture" - that's just some BS they put on every bottle, along with "BLOOM"in big letters on most of them, even though "Roots" and "Foliar" are not for bloom really. Anyhow, they are actually called Agricultural Organics and they do a terrible job of promoting their name.


Foliar A + B (I think they may have changed the name now though) - apparently has 5 different modes of SAR inducing action :

[This company carries the smaller size - since you don't use it often and only in sprays you don't need much]
http://www.yellowbottles.com/ultra-bloom.html


[This place is great in general - good place to shop if you want to throw in some other things to reduce the significance of shipping]
http://www.gchydro.com/Foliar+Bloom+A+%26+B.html

[Messenger]
http://www.gchydro.com/Eden+Bioscience%AE++Messenger%AE.html

[Pure Salicylic Acid: the main ingredient in Advanced Nutrients Bud Factor X]:

http://www.queenbeesauce.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=14


[PLEASE post the concentration of SA in Bud Factor X if anyone finds out!]

[Chitosan: The second/other main ingredient in BFX]:


http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=pure+chitosan&_sacat=0&_odkw=chitosan&_osacat=0&bkBtn=&_trksid=p3286.m270.l1313

[I believe GH Chi is also Chitosan]

Thanks for the kind words - I am glad I helped.

 

[wally150]

thank you spleebale. i still cant find the yellow bottle immune thing youre talking about. that link is for "ultra bloom"

and any advice on what kind of nematodes to order and use for these fuckers?

 

[jimbo99]

ok, im convinced these things are coming in bags of fox farm ocean forest soil. I had these around 7 weeks ago, i only had plants in veg. I used 15ml/gal of spectracide to kill them and i didnt see any until today. I looked in my veg room today( these are all new plants that weren't around 7 weeks ago) and spotted a couple tiny crawlers on the soil of one plant, i checked the rest and they all have them. Also a few that i just transplanted and put into my flower room last week had them too. Luckily, i didn't see any in the older plants that are now 5 and a half weeks into flower (the plants that were treated with spectracide 7 weeks ago). So i treated all the vegging plants, and newly flowering plants with the spectracide today, hopefully that does the job and they dont migrate to the older flowering plants. Anyway, so i check my rubbermaid tub full of premixed soil to see if i find any in there and the tub was infested. In the tub i have half ffof, half promix, and like 20 percent perlite mixed up. This is all brand new soil out of the bag. If these things came from somewhere outside of my grow, why would they go into a rubbermaid tub of brand new soil that hasn't had any roots in it? These things had to have come in with the soil. I'm pissed that there selling this kind of infested crap and charging me 22 bucks a bag for it.

 

[wally150]

I agree. im pretty sure it was from my FFOF soil.....

 

[jackogpush]

So ive been fighting these things for 7 weeks now. Ive been able to manage them with the various methods but they keep coming back. I will be sure to use the IMID next round but didn't want to use it this time for fear that it was to late in flower.

Here is my question..I have dead winged adults all through out the buds. They fly up hit the light then die and fall into the bud. How am I going to get these things off my buds? Im harvesting in a week. Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Jack

 

[jimbo99]

So ive been fighting these things for 7 weeks now. Ive been able to manage them with the various methods but they keep coming back. I will be sure to use the IMID next round but didn't want to use it this time for fear that it was to late in flower.

Here is my question..I have dead winged adults all through out the buds. They fly up hit the light then die and fall into the bud. How am I going to get these things off my buds? Im harvesting in a week. Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Jack

Try blowing them off with the cans of compressed air they sell for cleaning keyboards.

 

[wally150]

or get a hairdryer and use it on the "cool" setting (no heat).....