HIGHGROOVE
Member
damn gnats got them last grow and went got all new coco and these little bastards are back again im 5 weeks into flower what can i do at this point too kill them?
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Fungus gnats or WINGED ROOT APHIDS???
- Thread starter spleebale
- Start date
Fat J
Member
I loved how well imid worked for me... but i just got stoned and was wondering: Wasn't ddt as well as many other really bad chems sold to us as "safe enough for children to play in" I remember seeing a video where they sprayed ppl with ddt (smiling) to show how safe it was. Any1 understand the chemical byproducts/breakdown of imid after it dissipates? Are we all gonna be suing Bayer in 20 years for the irreprable harm they caused us? Meh, prolly not, I'm just stoned n rambling... The plants i treated finished great, bud is kill, smokin some now.
Just cause I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get me!
Just cause I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get me!
bicycle racer
Member
thats why i used pyrethrum/canola oil to eliminate my root.a's it takes more effort and at least 3 treatments should be performed but at least i KNOW my smoke is safe long term.
CurtisLemay
Member
I found some of these aphids on my rockwool cubes so I covered them with dirt. Have been seeing a lot less of them in my coco coir since doing that. Also found a few flyers when the rockwool cubes were exposed, but believe they were fungus gnats because they seemed slow and weren't attracted to light. They liked to stay right above the rockwool cube on the thick main stem.
I'm hearing that there are many types of aphids. Mine do look like aphids but they seemed to only like the rockwool cube from what I could tell. Will try to keep the coco a little dryer in case but I dug up some of the coco to try and see bugs and roots, but it's hard to find any since covering up the rockwool. The roots are also an awesome white and look energetic.
Do some aphids only like rockwool and not coco? I'm also using hygrozyme and liquid karma.
I'm hearing that there are many types of aphids. Mine do look like aphids but they seemed to only like the rockwool cube from what I could tell. Will try to keep the coco a little dryer in case but I dug up some of the coco to try and see bugs and roots, but it's hard to find any since covering up the rockwool. The roots are also an awesome white and look energetic.
Do some aphids only like rockwool and not coco? I'm also using hygrozyme and liquid karma.
I
idoreallytry
ok guys i am 13-20 days in have theses lil fuckers everywhere the lil wingless tanks crawling upt he sides of the pots then the last few plants i hae harvested were just covered with the fleirs all inside and undernesth the leaves,,,they love the tops of leaves near the light and hte stickiest plants they seem to be attracted too in my room,,,i have found on three seperate occassions a dead leave and on the bottom was a dead flier and about 20 other aphids in various stages of growth like they were born there and just couldnt leave mom,,,but i smashed them so quick in disgust and never thought to get a picture,,,,but i can go in my room water and hundreds will end up in the runoff basin and the fliers go to the walls and i smash them,,,then i smash all the onnes on hte leaves that i see and the next day its like i never did anything the day before,,,,,,i have found the tank looking black aphinds on the buds fliers on pots and on bud i can smell them when they fly into the light,,,,they are just getting rediculous,,,so 20 days max flowering what should i use to contol or get rid of them i have on eplant that will only go 56 days, i will cull it and just treat the rest if that is an option the rest still have 50 or more days so they have a ways to go,,,what can be used and what is safe to use at this point? i have read imid, bti, azatrol, cost at this point is not an option just to get rid of them so help me out guys what should i do?,,,peace
puff adder
Member
It's been a week since my first application of 5ml/gallon Bayer tree and shrub.
This morning the plants were good and dry, killer root growth in just one week. I applied a roughly 15ml/gallon full saturation dosing, this I hope will break the life cycle for good.
As far as I can see, there are NO crawlers, and just one or two flyers in the sticky traps.
This morning the plants were good and dry, killer root growth in just one week. I applied a roughly 15ml/gallon full saturation dosing, this I hope will break the life cycle for good.
As far as I can see, there are NO crawlers, and just one or two flyers in the sticky traps.
smokesalot420
Member
Hey Ido, sorry to hear about your problems.... If I were that far into flower I would use a pyrethrum drench, let the soil dry out a couple days followed by a feeding, then an azatrol or azamax drench followed by another feeding when you're dried out. I know people have talked about the ineffectiveness of Azatrol/Azamax, but I think these pesticides work for the larvae and nymphs that are born and the pyrethrum works for the later stage bugs.... If I had access to it, I would also use Botanigard but I have not had the chance to test that product. My research indicates that Botanigard is 95 percent effective, so a follow-up treatment should be used with another pesticide listed above.
I have started my experiments using 35 percent H2o2 and my results are promising so far. The Peroxide not only kills the aphids but it also helps to dissolve the sooty mold that grows on the roots following the waxy build-up these bugs secrete. The only thing about using H2o2 is that you must be careful not to use too much and burn the root hairs you are trying to help! So far, my dose of 5ml per gal of 35 percent H2o2 is working well and I have not had the 2 plants that I have treated show any signs of getting worse. After using H2o2 and many other pesticides, I use aerated compost tea as a soil drench to repopulate my beneficials, followed by a rhizotonic feeding in addition to using hygrozyme to further help my damaged roots.
I have also started using Tanglefoot on the base of my pots as well as my drain trays (and am noticing getting more from the drain trays, werid!) as well as sticky traps (thanks for the idea Norkali). These steps, along with neeming in Veg and transition, sulfur burning in beginning of flower have helped me tremendously. Remember, I fought these things last year and was beaten so I have taken much more aggressive steps this year after losing some of my precious Moms....
My Bayer schedule has been adjusted as well after doing more research. I use the Bayer fruit and veggie after my clones root then give them another dose before I flip. I have seen the effectiveness being 8-10 weeks (this is consistent to them showing back up on a Chem D mom after 9 weeks) with the Bayer product I am using and am scheduling accordingly. I also have some questions for people in this thread as I am getting conflicting info from my research and here..... If this was truely a systemic, why would we need to worry about "watering out" the Imid from the soil with out treatment following the Imid? Also, after reading the MSDS on my Bayer product, they talk about how it offers "one season" of protection..... Well a season is 1/4 of the year, which works out to 13 weeks, right? I am just using this to get a rough idea, not telling anyone how this product works for sure...
Anyway, I have a lot more to say on this but I have company and plants to tent.... I will add more later but I hope this helps anyone in dire straights during flower!
I’m about three days into curing 10oz of buds and I’m wondering about throwing them into the trash. It will kill me to do that.
It means I will be dry for a while for one thing.
Why put the buds in the trash?
Well, 30 days before harvest I sprayed the plants with Confidor which contains Imidacloprid in granular form.
Apparently this is Bayer’s home gardeners format.
At the strength I used the withholding period for tomatoes is 6 days.
Anyway I made a mix with .17oz of the granules in ½ a gallon of water and sprayed the foliage.
(indoor plants growing in soil)
There is no point in going into what caused my moment of madness because the damage is done.
For the 30 days after spraying I sprayed the plants with water numerous times and flushed the soil in the pots as much as I thought the plants could tolerate.
A couple of days before harvest there were insects moving about on the leaves and spider mites building webs on the top of the colas.
I wonder how much Imidacloprid residue is in the buds?
I will follow my usual curing method with these buds but later it will be decision time.
What would you guys do with the buds? Trash them or risk smoking them?
It means I will be dry for a while for one thing.
Why put the buds in the trash?
Well, 30 days before harvest I sprayed the plants with Confidor which contains Imidacloprid in granular form.
Apparently this is Bayer’s home gardeners format.
At the strength I used the withholding period for tomatoes is 6 days.
Anyway I made a mix with .17oz of the granules in ½ a gallon of water and sprayed the foliage.
(indoor plants growing in soil)
There is no point in going into what caused my moment of madness because the damage is done.
For the 30 days after spraying I sprayed the plants with water numerous times and flushed the soil in the pots as much as I thought the plants could tolerate.
A couple of days before harvest there were insects moving about on the leaves and spider mites building webs on the top of the colas.
I wonder how much Imidacloprid residue is in the buds?
I will follow my usual curing method with these buds but later it will be decision time.
What would you guys do with the buds? Trash them or risk smoking them?
EatMoGrass
Member
As broke as I am that would be a tough situation as I would be concerned about my health as it sounds like you are.
I went through the toxic grow tent deal and it fucked up allot of my needed medicine. I continued to use (smoke/eat) the buds but I feel it was not good for my health, but not having buds to help manage my pain was not am option.
Maybe you could just try to limit your use of the possibly tainted buds until your next harvest of clean medicine. Then smoke tuff to celebrate clean buds!
I do like the fact that you have not mentioned selling the buds in question. That could be bad Karma. I still have plants hanging up from my last batch grown in my toxic tent 2.5 months ago. I could have sold them but anything that is not safe enough for me is not safe enough to be sold to others in my opinion.
I went through the toxic grow tent deal and it fucked up allot of my needed medicine. I continued to use (smoke/eat) the buds but I feel it was not good for my health, but not having buds to help manage my pain was not am option.
Maybe you could just try to limit your use of the possibly tainted buds until your next harvest of clean medicine. Then smoke tuff to celebrate clean buds!
I do like the fact that you have not mentioned selling the buds in question. That could be bad Karma. I still have plants hanging up from my last batch grown in my toxic tent 2.5 months ago. I could have sold them but anything that is not safe enough for me is not safe enough to be sold to others in my opinion.
I think like you EatMoGrass, I just wouldn’t sell those buds to anyone. And like you I need it for the debilitating pain caused by a degenerative illness.
I have read reams of material about Imidacloprid and the way it is used commercially.
I was especially interested in the results involving the tobacco plant because that is a product that is smoked.
From my understanding Imid can be used three times on tobacco crops with the last application as late as two weeks before harvest.That is encouraging news from my viewpoint.
However with application rates of Imidacloprid it is difficult to compare apples with apples.
The commercial guys talk of rates per acre and I’m spraying a handful of plants in a few square feet.
Often Imidacloprid is used as a drench too. It tends to hang around for a long time used in that manner.
The bottom line is there have been no studies of using Imidacloprid on cannabis plants.
So I guess we are pioneers.
It’s enough to give me a headache.
I also wonder about all the toxins we are exposed to every day of our lives.
What do we inhale when driving our cars on busy roads or when we fill up with gas?
Have a look at food labels and all the additives/preservatives we consume.
Is it possible Imidacloprid isn’t really a major worry? It may be a lot of our food anyway.
Okay, I’m grasping at straws but I’ve still got those 10 ounces with an unknown level of residue of Imidacloprid.
And I’ll never know whether it is safe to use. Unless a lab could test a couple of my buds.
I have read reams of material about Imidacloprid and the way it is used commercially.
I was especially interested in the results involving the tobacco plant because that is a product that is smoked.
From my understanding Imid can be used three times on tobacco crops with the last application as late as two weeks before harvest.That is encouraging news from my viewpoint.
However with application rates of Imidacloprid it is difficult to compare apples with apples.
The commercial guys talk of rates per acre and I’m spraying a handful of plants in a few square feet.
Often Imidacloprid is used as a drench too. It tends to hang around for a long time used in that manner.
The bottom line is there have been no studies of using Imidacloprid on cannabis plants.
So I guess we are pioneers.
It’s enough to give me a headache.
I also wonder about all the toxins we are exposed to every day of our lives.
What do we inhale when driving our cars on busy roads or when we fill up with gas?
Have a look at food labels and all the additives/preservatives we consume.
Is it possible Imidacloprid isn’t really a major worry? It may be a lot of our food anyway.
Okay, I’m grasping at straws but I’ve still got those 10 ounces with an unknown level of residue of Imidacloprid.
And I’ll never know whether it is safe to use. Unless a lab could test a couple of my buds.
GuerillaAk
Member
i never had a prob till a a friend got me a clone and forgot to check for pest and spray with takedown. he gave me spider mites. then he gave me anotherone no s mites but little with critters appeared in my medium. i noticed the first winged adults came from the clone hegave me coming from the soil. which i dont use soil. i start in coco and move to ebb n gro wit grow rocks. as for the bayer shrub i read sum place to use that. I took the moms and dunked them for 10-20 min in a10x reccomeended solution plus 3ml/g 30%h202. then gave them a light flush. seemed to work like a charm no more mites. i put the h202 to provide oxygen to the roots durring the dunk but it seem to be helpin kill the little bastards the were fizzin and which i didnt think it would with just 3ml/g. i used recomend strength for the veg clones 1 foot tall. and i used spectricid for a week in the flower rooom(ebb n gro). hopefully no more will come back.
Hey Rabbits and others:
You are good people to refuse to sell product that you are uncertain of or are not 100% willing to smoke. I have contempt for anyone in all but the MOST dire of straights who would sell questionable product; that goes for mildew and especially botrytis and other bud-rots as well!
As for imid - it is a complicated subject. I will give you my opinion on it; please only take this as personal opinion and not the definitive answer (though I will provide many facts from articles linked):
-------------------------Yes, Toxic Exposure is Everywhere----------------------
First, addressing general toxic exposure: yes, we certainly do have a LOT of toxic exposure these days, which easily accounts for most of the mid-life diseases and issues that proliferate now. Our food is one major source of many toxic substances but so is the air, most water supplies, cosmetics and other skin and hair-care products (including most shampoos, toothpastes and lotions), detergents and dyes and materials we wear or use regularly (non-stick cookware etc). We are surrounded by harmful substances and this is CERTAINLY no excuse to perpetuate or increase or add-to daily harmful exposure. Rather, as we recognize how many of the things we take for granted that poison us just a little each day, it would be a much better idea to try to start limiting exposure within reason.
The most IMPORTANT part of reducing and limiting dangerous exposure is being WELL INFORMED. Ask yourself: "What are the sources of toxic substances I am most heavily exposed to?" It is good to obtain the fact sheet on your local water, or if you have a well to get the water tested. On top of this it is good to do a bit of research into toxic substances you likely expose yourself to.
----------------------------A discussion of chemicals in general-------------------
There are many types of toxic chemicals, even within one class of substance, for example, miticides: abamectin [Avid] and spiromesifin [Judo/Forbid] work by completely different modes of action and are entirely different toxins. So lumping "toxic chemicals" all in one group is not an effective way of addressing the issue, nor can we treat all pesticides, insecticides or miticides as the same, as each poses a different type of danger.
While there are many ways that substances can be toxic (acute cell damage, activating or blocking neural receptors, hormone receptors or otherwise deactivating various systems etc etc) in general we are worried about two aspects of exposure: acute toxicity and long-term harm (which is generally linked to high levels of exposure or chronic exposure). In general if you are exposed to moderate to high levels only briefly/acutely of almost any substance that is approved for general purpose/use, your body (99.9% your liver) will process the substance and eliminate it. Though you may suffer acute effects (all sorts of "side-effects" or feelings of illness), you will generally quickly recover and not suffer long-term damage from most chemicals (short of consuming large quantities of harmful chemicals - like drinking pesticides etc). In general what we mostly have to worry about is the CHRONIC or cumulative exposure to such sources, such as in produce we are eating every day or if you are being reckless and using imid in high doses through bloom with every harvest.
----------------------------Differentiating Between Types of Harm-----------------
A major part of evaluating the threat of chemicals is recognizing the difference between acute (short-term, few-exposures, possibly high-level) and cumulative (many exposures, possibly lower level) exposure. I would put smoking imid-bud to be anywhere in between, depending on how much imid is likley in it and how much you smoke; I would place smoking 10 oz of more-than-reasonably-contaminated buds as somewhere in-between.
Most damage that results from acute/short term exposure to almost any chemical is usually sustained by the liver (which is responsible for processing just about all 'foreign' substances). Fortunately the liver is one of the most tolerant and resilient organs and regenerates is cells very rapidly. If the chemical is acutely toxic to other types of cells, however, these may also be harmed (just as consuming a lot of alcohol will 'get past' the liver and kill brain cells).
Other types of acute damage that is of concern - ESPECIALLY to pregnant women or anyone trying to conceive - is developmental or reproductive harm. It is always good to look into these aspects, and these are of PARAMOUNT consideration for those who are pregnant or trying to conceive (even potentially for men).
Then there are the concerns from long-term or cumulative exposure, which (from data presented below: "It [imid] was detected in over 80% of all bananas tested, 76% of cauliflower, and 72% of spinach samples") seems to be far more of a concern from consuming non-organic produce than from application to cannabis.
-------------------------Imid the chemical - where does it fall???-------------------
Rather than presenting each claim one at a time and providing links after each one, I will present my OVERALL understanding and opinion of imid and then provide all of the quotes from the links below to mostly substantiate my view.
Imid is a chemical that works by over-stimulating/over-activating the nervous system of bugs. Just like nicotine it is active at acetylcholine receptors, so it has the potential to cause nervous-system responses much like nicotine (particularly in the peripheral nervous system, as does not seem to easily cross into the brain).
Simplifying the mode of action: imid binds to certain receptors, just as a neurotransmitter would. In insects the affinity (binding strength/potential) is much greater than it is in mammals, so less imid activates far more receptors. Overwhelming these receptors, the insect cannot function properly and dies. Note: there is NOTHING inherently toxic about this "binding" / neural activation - the "binding" of chemicals to receptors is a perfectly natural phenomenon that is the underlying basis of how nearly all of our nerve cells function and "communicate" with one another. Nerve cells typically cannot become "active" without this sort of binding. Just like when you drink coffee, take an aspirin or smoke a cigarette, active components of the "drug" will bind to various receptor types to cause the activity that they do. This binding is temporary and any "outside" substances (whether caffeine, nicotine or imidacloprid) are quickly (matter of hours) eliminated from the body thereafter, ceasing to have any effect on activity of the nervous system. The imid is not "attacking" any cells per se, it merely causes over-stimulation of the nervous system - particularly the insect nervous system as it does not (much) get into the mammalian central nervous system - thus any effects on the nervous system in mammals will be on the peripheral nervous system and not generally on the central nervous system.
Otherwise the imid is broken down/excreted VERY quickly within plants (3-5 day half-life) and especially within mammals (96% excreted after 48-hrs). So essentially the imid DOES cause some activity in our nervous system (which can result at high doses in disorientation, sweating and presumably some involuntary muscle spasms/twitching) but does NOT get into the brain easily, and does NOT affect our receptors as strong as it does bug-receptors (probably less than nicotine). Essentially there seems to be very little concern about the harm of acute exposure except that heavy exposure may make you a bit whacky or woozy for a while (from nervous-system effects). In general acute exposure seems less harmful to humans than exposure to nicotine (getting tobacco-juice on your hands from a nicotine drench is probably more acutely harmful than getting imid-water on your hands and is more likely to make you sick or woozy).
Imid is NOT a cholinesterase-inhibitor and is not listed as a PAN Bad-actor chemical (two important flags for danger to humans).
As far as the more serious concerns from longer term or heavier exposure: there is no evidence of carcinogenicity or developmental or reproductive harm.
It seems the biggest concern about use of imid is when aerosolizing it (spraying/fogging/misting) - it is very easily absorbed in fine particles suspended in air and will most readily cause acute symptoms when breathed in aerosolized form. This should also be a STRONG WARNING to those who would add imid to their aero-type system or even sprayer-stake irrigation systems (any system pushing water through a small aperture) - do not breathe the air anytime during or soon after such watering; use a respirator with multi-gas cartridges if you need to be around the system while watering. Use an exhaust fan to clear the air for a while after watering before entering without a mask.
Also: imid does NOT break down well in soil, especially those with lots of organic matter. If you do not flush the imid out of the soil after you use it with heavy waterings past run-off, far more of it will be in the plant tissue at harvest as it will continue to be absorbed throughout bloom.
Other than that, it seems like chronic exposure is the most worrisome aspect, which will be limited more by consuming fewer non-organic fruits and vegetables.
Imid does seem to pass into smoke when the material is burned, but much of it seems to break down into CO2 and other by-products and the vast majority of it (in cases where cigarettes were tested) ended up in the butts; probably because of the filter.
--------------------------My personal conception of the danger of imidacloprid:------------------------
Many chemicals used in cannabis cultivation are far worse, especially most commercial miticides (Avid, Hexygon etc). These chemicals are seriously damaging to the immune system where there is not the evidence of this regarding imid. As all harmful chemicals, since we know they are harmful we should avoid using them in ways that will remain in the product wherever possible, but if it came down to it, I would much sooner use imid 30 days from harvest to save a crop than I would Avid or other nasty miticides, which I wound not consider using into bloom at all.
I would actually not be surprised to find that many of the "regular" chemicals that remain in "salty/chemy" bud that has not been flushed well, when combusted, are likely far more harmful than imid - even potentially carcinogenic, which imid has not been shown to be. There are hundreds if not thousands of various chemicals present in bud when it is harvested which become hundreds or thousands more when it is combusted. Of these thousands of chemicals, if there is any imidacloprid among them, it happens to be one of the most studied of all these substances, and from all the studies done, does not seem to be a particularly bad substance - almost certainly not the worst in there, even in otherwise organically grown bud.
The bottom line: Try to use as little of chemicals that will linger as possible (imidacloprid included). Use them earlier as preventatives rather than in heavier doses later in a futile attempt to "Save things." In the case of an act of desperation (spraying blooming plants with imid, lets say), the choice must be entirely yours. If it were me, I would smoke the bud intermittently so as not to take in too much imid at once. I WOULD NOT use any trim or leaves from plants treated with imid late in bloom for food or tincture purposes. I would not use alcohol to make concentrates either, as it will likely extract imid. I would look into imid-butane solubility (or any other solvents) before using them - the more soluble the imid is in the solvent the less desirable the solvent is). Ice-water extractions are probably the way to get the most pure usable product with the least imid.
Persons with delicate or compromised immune systems should always be very hesitant to consume bud that has been exposed to any harsh chemicals and should be far more picky about what they accept as medicine and what they put in their own medicine. If you have a compromised immune system and you buy medicine from others: ask what miticides, insecticides and fungicides are used - make it known that it is of top concern, and if you are dealing with a middle-man, ASK UPWARD - have him ask his person and so on until the information comes back to you!
Though I would rank imid among the lowest concern compared to most popular fungicides and miticides, I would be very mindful when consuming contaminated bud and try to pay attention to any possible side-effects it may cause (without looking too hard and becoming a hypochondriac). If you are worried about the imid content of your product but still want to smoke it, perhaps using the filters from cigarettes to filter your smoke (plug the hole of the pipe with one or role one in a J) will help.
That is my position on imid. Now here is rel information the sites linked below; please take in the real information and form your own opinion.
If you are afraid of the potential harm of imid, you may be able to do just about as well by using repeated nicotine (tobacco-juice) applications to your roots, as it will affect the bugs similarly and will not be absorbed the same way by the plant. If you are in a hydro system, perhaps you can just make a really strong nicotine-res by first steeping a good deal of tobacco in hot water and adding it to your res. This should certainly be done for multiple waterings; the only way to be thorough with non-systemics is to re-apply them over the course of at least 7-10 days and with a minimum of 3-5 waterings. I have not done this so I do not know how this will affect plants, so do so at your own risk - test first where possible.
----------------------------------Actual facts and details-------------------
This is a very useful imid fact-sheet:
http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/imidacloprid.pdf
"However, the binding affinity of imidacloprid at the nicotinic receptors in mammals is much less than that of insect nicotinic receptors."
"The blood-brain barrier in vertebrates blocks access of imidacloprid to the central nervous system, reducing its toxicity."
"Imidacloprid is moderately toxic if ingested, and is designated as U.S. EPA’s Toxicity Category II (moderate toxicity)."
"Imidacloprid is very low in toxicity via dermal exposure, and is designated as U.S. EPA’s Toxicity Category IV (very low toxicity)."
"The U.S. EPA’s Toxicity Category designation for imidacloprid dust is Category IV, or slightly toxic. The U.S. EPA’s Toxicity Category designation for imidacloprid aerosols is Category I, or highly toxic."
"Neither persistent neurotoxic effects nor effects with a delayed onset have been reported for imidacloprid."
"Little systemic absorption through the skin occurs following dermal exposure in pets."
"The U.S. EPA has classified imidacloprid into Group E, no evidence of carcinogenicity, based on studies with rats and mice."
"A 24-year-old man who accidentally inhaled a pesticide containing 17.8% imidacloprid while working on his farm was disoriented, agitated, incoherent, sweating and breathless following the exposure."
[Wear a dust-mask when using dry-imid products; Use a respirator with chem cartridges to spray imid (should you ever need to)]
"Rats were fed imidacloprid for 18 or 24 months at unspecified concentrations. Although signs of toxicity were noted, researchers concluded that imidacloprid showed no evidence of carcinogenic potential."
"Rats excreted 96% of radio-labeled imidacloprid within 48 hours following an unspecified oral dosing, with 90% excreted in the first 24 hours."
"Rats consumed imidacloprid in their diet for three months at doses of 14, 61, and 300 mg/kg/day for males and 20, 83, and 420 mg/kg/day for females. Researchers noted reductions in body weight gain, liver damage, and reduced blood clotting function and platelet counts at 61 mg/kg/day in males and 420 mg/kg/day in females. Liver damage disappeared after exposure ended, but abnormalities in the blood were not entirely reversible."
"Researchers fed imidacloprid to beagles for one year. Concentrations were 200, 500, or 1250 ppm for the first 16 weeks and 200, 500, and 2500 ppm for the remainder of the trial. Doses were equivalent to 6.1, 15.0, and 41.0 or 72.0 mg/kg/day. Researchers noted reduced food intake in the highest dose group. Females in this group exhibited increased plasma cholesterol concentrations at 13 and 26 weeks. Both males and females in this group exhibited increased cytochrome P450 activity in the liver and increases in liver weights at the end of the study. No adverse effects were observed at the two lowest doses."
"Oral LD50 values in rats were estimated to be 450 mg/kg for both sexes"
-That is about 1/2g per kilogram - So assuming we respond similarly to mice (which is how they test everything) - a 110 lb woman (weighing ~50 kg) would need to ingest at least 20g of pure imid to have even a 50/50 chance of dying - that is about 1/3 a jar of Merit 75 WP or several bottles of Bayer T&S. Sure, it may sound dangerous to "have something around that could kill you" but if you dissolve a pack of cigarettes in water and drink that and manage to keep it down, that will kill you too - and I could sooner keep down a pack of cigarettes in water than several bottles of Bayer T&S!
"Three case reports of attempted suicides described signs of toxicity including drowsiness, dizziness, vomiting, disorientation,and fever.22,23,24 In two of these cases, the authors concluded that the other ingredients in the formulated product ingested by the victims were more likely to account for many of the observed signs."
"Imidacloprid was detected in a range of fresh and processed fruits and vegetables. It
was detected in over 80% of all bananas tested, 76% of cauliflower, and 72% of spinach samples."
"More than 85% of the imidacloprid taken up by the tomato plants was translocated to the shoots, and only small quantities were found in the roots. Shoot concentrations declined towards the top of the plant." - This is in opposition to the other study that said that imid was drawn most into highest shoots.
"The tomato fruits also contained imidacloprid, although tissue concentrations were not related to the position of the fruits on the plant."
"Researchers sprayed imidacloprid on eggplant, cabbage, and mustard crops at rates of 20 and 40 g/ha when the crops were at 50% fruit formation, curd formation, and pod formation, respectively. The researchers calculated foliar half-lives of 3 to 5 days based on the measured residues."
-Seems like imid breaks down rapidly in plants just as it does in animals - so watering it well out of the soil (where it does NOT break down well and will continue to be absorbed by the plant) is likely the biggest concern for people growing in soil or the like.)
"Volatilization potential is low due to imidacloprid’s low vapor pressure."
"Three plant metabolites of imidacloprid, the imidazolidine derivative, the olefin metabolite and the nitroso-derivative, were more toxic to aphids than imidacloprid itself." - This is not a good sign, as they may be even more toxic to humans than imid is, though the % of substances excreted after ingestion includes these metabolites..
http://www.es.bayeradvanced.com/media/msdssheet/12_Month_Tree&Shrub_Insect_Control_II_Conc_24.pdf
"REPRODUCTION: In a two-generation reproduction study in rats, imidacloprid
was not a primary reproductive toxicant. Offspring exhibited reduced body
weights at the high dose and in conjunction with maternal toxicity."
"DEVELOPMENTAL TOXICITY: In developmental toxicity studies in rats and
rabbits, there was no evidence of an embryotoxic or teratogenic potential for
imidacloprid. In both species, developmental effects were observed only at high
doses and in conjunction with maternal toxicity."
"Neurotoxicity studies in rats showed slight behavioral and activity changes only
at the highest dose tested. There were no correlating morphological changes
observed in the neural tissues."
"The imidacloprid mutagenicity studies, taken collectively, demonstrate that the
active ingredient is not genotoxic or mutagenic."
http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profile...-methylpara/imidacloprid/imidac_pet_0197.html
Tobacco smoke. Studies have been conducted to determine residues in tobacco and the resulting smoke following treatment. Residues of imidacloprid in cured tobacco following treatment were a maximum of 31 ppm (7 ppm in fresh leaves). When this tobacco was burned in a pyrolysis study only 2 percent of the initial residue was recovered in the resulting smoke (main stream plus side stream). This would result in an inhalation exposure to imidacloprid from smoking of approximately 0.0005 mg per cigarette. Using the measured subacute rat inhalation NOEL [NO Observable Effects Level]of 5.5 mg/m3, it is apparent that exposure to imidacloprid from smoking (direct and/or indirect exposure) would not be significant."
Translation: they did not notice the effects of inhalation of imid in rats at 5.5 mg/m3 (these tests are typically done with long terms of exposure); a cigarette made with nicotine treated to 31 ppm dried product is estimated at 0.0005 mg imid. To try to get the same units in order to compare, a m3 is a meter cubed (~3'X3'X3') - that is how much air contained the 5.5mg imid vapor the rat was breathing. If you breathe out into an empty bag and continue to breathe into it to fill it up until it filled up a 3X3X3 box, that would be a m^3 of air - probably more or less how much you would breathe into a bag during one cigarette, though each person would need to conduct their own test. If you were to breathe that much air in the consumption of one cigarette, that would make the exposure to imid in the test cigarette smoke 0.0005 mg/m3 - compared to the NOEL inhalation of 5.5 mg/m3 of rats: 11,000 times less concentrated "imid air" than the rat was stewing in with no observed negative effects, breathed for the length of time it takes to smoke a joint or bong hit or what have you.
[I do not know if a cigarette filter was used in this study or not - it does not seem so]
http://www.cdpr.ca.gov/docs/emon/pubs/fatememo/Imidclprdfate2.pdf
In their study, cigarette smoke made from tobacco that was treated with radiolabelled imidacloprid was analyzed for the presence of residues. The majority of the radioactivity (34.6 percent) was recovered from carbon dioxide; 6.1 percent of the recovered radioactivity was contributed by imidacloprid and imidacloprid urea. It is unlikely that cigarette smoke is a significant source of imidacloprid exposure.
You are good people to refuse to sell product that you are uncertain of or are not 100% willing to smoke. I have contempt for anyone in all but the MOST dire of straights who would sell questionable product; that goes for mildew and especially botrytis and other bud-rots as well!
As for imid - it is a complicated subject. I will give you my opinion on it; please only take this as personal opinion and not the definitive answer (though I will provide many facts from articles linked):
-------------------------Yes, Toxic Exposure is Everywhere----------------------
First, addressing general toxic exposure: yes, we certainly do have a LOT of toxic exposure these days, which easily accounts for most of the mid-life diseases and issues that proliferate now. Our food is one major source of many toxic substances but so is the air, most water supplies, cosmetics and other skin and hair-care products (including most shampoos, toothpastes and lotions), detergents and dyes and materials we wear or use regularly (non-stick cookware etc). We are surrounded by harmful substances and this is CERTAINLY no excuse to perpetuate or increase or add-to daily harmful exposure. Rather, as we recognize how many of the things we take for granted that poison us just a little each day, it would be a much better idea to try to start limiting exposure within reason.
The most IMPORTANT part of reducing and limiting dangerous exposure is being WELL INFORMED. Ask yourself: "What are the sources of toxic substances I am most heavily exposed to?" It is good to obtain the fact sheet on your local water, or if you have a well to get the water tested. On top of this it is good to do a bit of research into toxic substances you likely expose yourself to.
----------------------------A discussion of chemicals in general-------------------
There are many types of toxic chemicals, even within one class of substance, for example, miticides: abamectin [Avid] and spiromesifin [Judo/Forbid] work by completely different modes of action and are entirely different toxins. So lumping "toxic chemicals" all in one group is not an effective way of addressing the issue, nor can we treat all pesticides, insecticides or miticides as the same, as each poses a different type of danger.
While there are many ways that substances can be toxic (acute cell damage, activating or blocking neural receptors, hormone receptors or otherwise deactivating various systems etc etc) in general we are worried about two aspects of exposure: acute toxicity and long-term harm (which is generally linked to high levels of exposure or chronic exposure). In general if you are exposed to moderate to high levels only briefly/acutely of almost any substance that is approved for general purpose/use, your body (99.9% your liver) will process the substance and eliminate it. Though you may suffer acute effects (all sorts of "side-effects" or feelings of illness), you will generally quickly recover and not suffer long-term damage from most chemicals (short of consuming large quantities of harmful chemicals - like drinking pesticides etc). In general what we mostly have to worry about is the CHRONIC or cumulative exposure to such sources, such as in produce we are eating every day or if you are being reckless and using imid in high doses through bloom with every harvest.
----------------------------Differentiating Between Types of Harm-----------------
A major part of evaluating the threat of chemicals is recognizing the difference between acute (short-term, few-exposures, possibly high-level) and cumulative (many exposures, possibly lower level) exposure. I would put smoking imid-bud to be anywhere in between, depending on how much imid is likley in it and how much you smoke; I would place smoking 10 oz of more-than-reasonably-contaminated buds as somewhere in-between.
Most damage that results from acute/short term exposure to almost any chemical is usually sustained by the liver (which is responsible for processing just about all 'foreign' substances). Fortunately the liver is one of the most tolerant and resilient organs and regenerates is cells very rapidly. If the chemical is acutely toxic to other types of cells, however, these may also be harmed (just as consuming a lot of alcohol will 'get past' the liver and kill brain cells).
Other types of acute damage that is of concern - ESPECIALLY to pregnant women or anyone trying to conceive - is developmental or reproductive harm. It is always good to look into these aspects, and these are of PARAMOUNT consideration for those who are pregnant or trying to conceive (even potentially for men).
Then there are the concerns from long-term or cumulative exposure, which (from data presented below: "It [imid] was detected in over 80% of all bananas tested, 76% of cauliflower, and 72% of spinach samples") seems to be far more of a concern from consuming non-organic produce than from application to cannabis.
-------------------------Imid the chemical - where does it fall???-------------------
Rather than presenting each claim one at a time and providing links after each one, I will present my OVERALL understanding and opinion of imid and then provide all of the quotes from the links below to mostly substantiate my view.
Imid is a chemical that works by over-stimulating/over-activating the nervous system of bugs. Just like nicotine it is active at acetylcholine receptors, so it has the potential to cause nervous-system responses much like nicotine (particularly in the peripheral nervous system, as does not seem to easily cross into the brain).
Simplifying the mode of action: imid binds to certain receptors, just as a neurotransmitter would. In insects the affinity (binding strength/potential) is much greater than it is in mammals, so less imid activates far more receptors. Overwhelming these receptors, the insect cannot function properly and dies. Note: there is NOTHING inherently toxic about this "binding" / neural activation - the "binding" of chemicals to receptors is a perfectly natural phenomenon that is the underlying basis of how nearly all of our nerve cells function and "communicate" with one another. Nerve cells typically cannot become "active" without this sort of binding. Just like when you drink coffee, take an aspirin or smoke a cigarette, active components of the "drug" will bind to various receptor types to cause the activity that they do. This binding is temporary and any "outside" substances (whether caffeine, nicotine or imidacloprid) are quickly (matter of hours) eliminated from the body thereafter, ceasing to have any effect on activity of the nervous system. The imid is not "attacking" any cells per se, it merely causes over-stimulation of the nervous system - particularly the insect nervous system as it does not (much) get into the mammalian central nervous system - thus any effects on the nervous system in mammals will be on the peripheral nervous system and not generally on the central nervous system.
Otherwise the imid is broken down/excreted VERY quickly within plants (3-5 day half-life) and especially within mammals (96% excreted after 48-hrs). So essentially the imid DOES cause some activity in our nervous system (which can result at high doses in disorientation, sweating and presumably some involuntary muscle spasms/twitching) but does NOT get into the brain easily, and does NOT affect our receptors as strong as it does bug-receptors (probably less than nicotine). Essentially there seems to be very little concern about the harm of acute exposure except that heavy exposure may make you a bit whacky or woozy for a while (from nervous-system effects). In general acute exposure seems less harmful to humans than exposure to nicotine (getting tobacco-juice on your hands from a nicotine drench is probably more acutely harmful than getting imid-water on your hands and is more likely to make you sick or woozy).
Imid is NOT a cholinesterase-inhibitor and is not listed as a PAN Bad-actor chemical (two important flags for danger to humans).
As far as the more serious concerns from longer term or heavier exposure: there is no evidence of carcinogenicity or developmental or reproductive harm.
It seems the biggest concern about use of imid is when aerosolizing it (spraying/fogging/misting) - it is very easily absorbed in fine particles suspended in air and will most readily cause acute symptoms when breathed in aerosolized form. This should also be a STRONG WARNING to those who would add imid to their aero-type system or even sprayer-stake irrigation systems (any system pushing water through a small aperture) - do not breathe the air anytime during or soon after such watering; use a respirator with multi-gas cartridges if you need to be around the system while watering. Use an exhaust fan to clear the air for a while after watering before entering without a mask.
Also: imid does NOT break down well in soil, especially those with lots of organic matter. If you do not flush the imid out of the soil after you use it with heavy waterings past run-off, far more of it will be in the plant tissue at harvest as it will continue to be absorbed throughout bloom.
Other than that, it seems like chronic exposure is the most worrisome aspect, which will be limited more by consuming fewer non-organic fruits and vegetables.
Imid does seem to pass into smoke when the material is burned, but much of it seems to break down into CO2 and other by-products and the vast majority of it (in cases where cigarettes were tested) ended up in the butts; probably because of the filter.
--------------------------My personal conception of the danger of imidacloprid:------------------------
Many chemicals used in cannabis cultivation are far worse, especially most commercial miticides (Avid, Hexygon etc). These chemicals are seriously damaging to the immune system where there is not the evidence of this regarding imid. As all harmful chemicals, since we know they are harmful we should avoid using them in ways that will remain in the product wherever possible, but if it came down to it, I would much sooner use imid 30 days from harvest to save a crop than I would Avid or other nasty miticides, which I wound not consider using into bloom at all.
I would actually not be surprised to find that many of the "regular" chemicals that remain in "salty/chemy" bud that has not been flushed well, when combusted, are likely far more harmful than imid - even potentially carcinogenic, which imid has not been shown to be. There are hundreds if not thousands of various chemicals present in bud when it is harvested which become hundreds or thousands more when it is combusted. Of these thousands of chemicals, if there is any imidacloprid among them, it happens to be one of the most studied of all these substances, and from all the studies done, does not seem to be a particularly bad substance - almost certainly not the worst in there, even in otherwise organically grown bud.
The bottom line: Try to use as little of chemicals that will linger as possible (imidacloprid included). Use them earlier as preventatives rather than in heavier doses later in a futile attempt to "Save things." In the case of an act of desperation (spraying blooming plants with imid, lets say), the choice must be entirely yours. If it were me, I would smoke the bud intermittently so as not to take in too much imid at once. I WOULD NOT use any trim or leaves from plants treated with imid late in bloom for food or tincture purposes. I would not use alcohol to make concentrates either, as it will likely extract imid. I would look into imid-butane solubility (or any other solvents) before using them - the more soluble the imid is in the solvent the less desirable the solvent is). Ice-water extractions are probably the way to get the most pure usable product with the least imid.
Persons with delicate or compromised immune systems should always be very hesitant to consume bud that has been exposed to any harsh chemicals and should be far more picky about what they accept as medicine and what they put in their own medicine. If you have a compromised immune system and you buy medicine from others: ask what miticides, insecticides and fungicides are used - make it known that it is of top concern, and if you are dealing with a middle-man, ASK UPWARD - have him ask his person and so on until the information comes back to you!
Though I would rank imid among the lowest concern compared to most popular fungicides and miticides, I would be very mindful when consuming contaminated bud and try to pay attention to any possible side-effects it may cause (without looking too hard and becoming a hypochondriac). If you are worried about the imid content of your product but still want to smoke it, perhaps using the filters from cigarettes to filter your smoke (plug the hole of the pipe with one or role one in a J) will help.
That is my position on imid. Now here is rel information the sites linked below; please take in the real information and form your own opinion.
If you are afraid of the potential harm of imid, you may be able to do just about as well by using repeated nicotine (tobacco-juice) applications to your roots, as it will affect the bugs similarly and will not be absorbed the same way by the plant. If you are in a hydro system, perhaps you can just make a really strong nicotine-res by first steeping a good deal of tobacco in hot water and adding it to your res. This should certainly be done for multiple waterings; the only way to be thorough with non-systemics is to re-apply them over the course of at least 7-10 days and with a minimum of 3-5 waterings. I have not done this so I do not know how this will affect plants, so do so at your own risk - test first where possible.
----------------------------------Actual facts and details-------------------
This is a very useful imid fact-sheet:
http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/imidacloprid.pdf
"However, the binding affinity of imidacloprid at the nicotinic receptors in mammals is much less than that of insect nicotinic receptors."
"The blood-brain barrier in vertebrates blocks access of imidacloprid to the central nervous system, reducing its toxicity."
"Imidacloprid is moderately toxic if ingested, and is designated as U.S. EPA’s Toxicity Category II (moderate toxicity)."
"Imidacloprid is very low in toxicity via dermal exposure, and is designated as U.S. EPA’s Toxicity Category IV (very low toxicity)."
"The U.S. EPA’s Toxicity Category designation for imidacloprid dust is Category IV, or slightly toxic. The U.S. EPA’s Toxicity Category designation for imidacloprid aerosols is Category I, or highly toxic."
"Neither persistent neurotoxic effects nor effects with a delayed onset have been reported for imidacloprid."
"Little systemic absorption through the skin occurs following dermal exposure in pets."
"The U.S. EPA has classified imidacloprid into Group E, no evidence of carcinogenicity, based on studies with rats and mice."
"A 24-year-old man who accidentally inhaled a pesticide containing 17.8% imidacloprid while working on his farm was disoriented, agitated, incoherent, sweating and breathless following the exposure."
[Wear a dust-mask when using dry-imid products; Use a respirator with chem cartridges to spray imid (should you ever need to)]
"Rats were fed imidacloprid for 18 or 24 months at unspecified concentrations. Although signs of toxicity were noted, researchers concluded that imidacloprid showed no evidence of carcinogenic potential."
"Rats excreted 96% of radio-labeled imidacloprid within 48 hours following an unspecified oral dosing, with 90% excreted in the first 24 hours."
"Rats consumed imidacloprid in their diet for three months at doses of 14, 61, and 300 mg/kg/day for males and 20, 83, and 420 mg/kg/day for females. Researchers noted reductions in body weight gain, liver damage, and reduced blood clotting function and platelet counts at 61 mg/kg/day in males and 420 mg/kg/day in females. Liver damage disappeared after exposure ended, but abnormalities in the blood were not entirely reversible."
"Researchers fed imidacloprid to beagles for one year. Concentrations were 200, 500, or 1250 ppm for the first 16 weeks and 200, 500, and 2500 ppm for the remainder of the trial. Doses were equivalent to 6.1, 15.0, and 41.0 or 72.0 mg/kg/day. Researchers noted reduced food intake in the highest dose group. Females in this group exhibited increased plasma cholesterol concentrations at 13 and 26 weeks. Both males and females in this group exhibited increased cytochrome P450 activity in the liver and increases in liver weights at the end of the study. No adverse effects were observed at the two lowest doses."
"Oral LD50 values in rats were estimated to be 450 mg/kg for both sexes"
-That is about 1/2g per kilogram - So assuming we respond similarly to mice (which is how they test everything) - a 110 lb woman (weighing ~50 kg) would need to ingest at least 20g of pure imid to have even a 50/50 chance of dying - that is about 1/3 a jar of Merit 75 WP or several bottles of Bayer T&S. Sure, it may sound dangerous to "have something around that could kill you" but if you dissolve a pack of cigarettes in water and drink that and manage to keep it down, that will kill you too - and I could sooner keep down a pack of cigarettes in water than several bottles of Bayer T&S!
"Three case reports of attempted suicides described signs of toxicity including drowsiness, dizziness, vomiting, disorientation,and fever.22,23,24 In two of these cases, the authors concluded that the other ingredients in the formulated product ingested by the victims were more likely to account for many of the observed signs."
"Imidacloprid was detected in a range of fresh and processed fruits and vegetables. It
was detected in over 80% of all bananas tested, 76% of cauliflower, and 72% of spinach samples."
"More than 85% of the imidacloprid taken up by the tomato plants was translocated to the shoots, and only small quantities were found in the roots. Shoot concentrations declined towards the top of the plant." - This is in opposition to the other study that said that imid was drawn most into highest shoots.
"The tomato fruits also contained imidacloprid, although tissue concentrations were not related to the position of the fruits on the plant."
"Researchers sprayed imidacloprid on eggplant, cabbage, and mustard crops at rates of 20 and 40 g/ha when the crops were at 50% fruit formation, curd formation, and pod formation, respectively. The researchers calculated foliar half-lives of 3 to 5 days based on the measured residues."
-Seems like imid breaks down rapidly in plants just as it does in animals - so watering it well out of the soil (where it does NOT break down well and will continue to be absorbed by the plant) is likely the biggest concern for people growing in soil or the like.)
"Volatilization potential is low due to imidacloprid’s low vapor pressure."
"Three plant metabolites of imidacloprid, the imidazolidine derivative, the olefin metabolite and the nitroso-derivative, were more toxic to aphids than imidacloprid itself." - This is not a good sign, as they may be even more toxic to humans than imid is, though the % of substances excreted after ingestion includes these metabolites..
http://www.es.bayeradvanced.com/media/msdssheet/12_Month_Tree&Shrub_Insect_Control_II_Conc_24.pdf
"REPRODUCTION: In a two-generation reproduction study in rats, imidacloprid
was not a primary reproductive toxicant. Offspring exhibited reduced body
weights at the high dose and in conjunction with maternal toxicity."
"DEVELOPMENTAL TOXICITY: In developmental toxicity studies in rats and
rabbits, there was no evidence of an embryotoxic or teratogenic potential for
imidacloprid. In both species, developmental effects were observed only at high
doses and in conjunction with maternal toxicity."
"Neurotoxicity studies in rats showed slight behavioral and activity changes only
at the highest dose tested. There were no correlating morphological changes
observed in the neural tissues."
"The imidacloprid mutagenicity studies, taken collectively, demonstrate that the
active ingredient is not genotoxic or mutagenic."
http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profile...-methylpara/imidacloprid/imidac_pet_0197.html
Tobacco smoke. Studies have been conducted to determine residues in tobacco and the resulting smoke following treatment. Residues of imidacloprid in cured tobacco following treatment were a maximum of 31 ppm (7 ppm in fresh leaves). When this tobacco was burned in a pyrolysis study only 2 percent of the initial residue was recovered in the resulting smoke (main stream plus side stream). This would result in an inhalation exposure to imidacloprid from smoking of approximately 0.0005 mg per cigarette. Using the measured subacute rat inhalation NOEL [NO Observable Effects Level]of 5.5 mg/m3, it is apparent that exposure to imidacloprid from smoking (direct and/or indirect exposure) would not be significant."
Translation: they did not notice the effects of inhalation of imid in rats at 5.5 mg/m3 (these tests are typically done with long terms of exposure); a cigarette made with nicotine treated to 31 ppm dried product is estimated at 0.0005 mg imid. To try to get the same units in order to compare, a m3 is a meter cubed (~3'X3'X3') - that is how much air contained the 5.5mg imid vapor the rat was breathing. If you breathe out into an empty bag and continue to breathe into it to fill it up until it filled up a 3X3X3 box, that would be a m^3 of air - probably more or less how much you would breathe into a bag during one cigarette, though each person would need to conduct their own test. If you were to breathe that much air in the consumption of one cigarette, that would make the exposure to imid in the test cigarette smoke 0.0005 mg/m3 - compared to the NOEL inhalation of 5.5 mg/m3 of rats: 11,000 times less concentrated "imid air" than the rat was stewing in with no observed negative effects, breathed for the length of time it takes to smoke a joint or bong hit or what have you.
[I do not know if a cigarette filter was used in this study or not - it does not seem so]
http://www.cdpr.ca.gov/docs/emon/pubs/fatememo/Imidclprdfate2.pdf
In their study, cigarette smoke made from tobacco that was treated with radiolabelled imidacloprid was analyzed for the presence of residues. The majority of the radioactivity (34.6 percent) was recovered from carbon dioxide; 6.1 percent of the recovered radioactivity was contributed by imidacloprid and imidacloprid urea. It is unlikely that cigarette smoke is a significant source of imidacloprid exposure.
Many thanks spleebale. There was a lot of work went into your report and I for one appreciate it.
Someone once said something like this: 'never underestimate the ability of a seemingly intelligent person to do something totally stupid.'
I consider myself to be of reasonable intelligence but I feel like the village idiot. I mean I sprayed my buds with toxic substance (imidacloprid).
I need to read spleebale's report several times.
I will keep curing my buds with the intention of keeping them for an emergency.
I know if I smoke any of them I will get anxious waiting for some weird side effects to appear. I'm in a lose lose situation.
I intend to study information on the half life of imidacloprid in plants like tomatoes.
I will never use a systemic insecticide on my buds again. Never ever!
Someone once said something like this: 'never underestimate the ability of a seemingly intelligent person to do something totally stupid.'
I consider myself to be of reasonable intelligence but I feel like the village idiot. I mean I sprayed my buds with toxic substance (imidacloprid).
I need to read spleebale's report several times.
I will keep curing my buds with the intention of keeping them for an emergency.
I know if I smoke any of them I will get anxious waiting for some weird side effects to appear. I'm in a lose lose situation.
I intend to study information on the half life of imidacloprid in plants like tomatoes.
I will never use a systemic insecticide on my buds again. Never ever!
imid ...
imid "thoes bitched" to death brother...
it sounds so bad.
id get like 5-10 of the 4 packs of fly catchers at home depot also.
http://www.greenlightco.com/products/treeandshrubsystemicinsectkiller/index.cfm
i used it @ 1 oz per gallon. then flooded each planter with it.(essentialy followed the directions.) tone it down just a notch 3/4 or 1/2 for plants 6 inches tall or shorter/smaller.
it required a few days to see them subside... =(
till then fly strips...the yellow ones.
sorry for the lag on response to the pm, been going through some shit.
I
idoreallytry
i am 24 days in flower is imid safe to use?,,,i ended up getting bugbuster o for foiler spray and azamax for root drench but i can treat my vegroom with the imid and evertyhing should be fine,,,,bro life is much more imprtant than my grow thx for answering period, u could have ignored me lol,,,peace guys hope we all kill these lil bastards,,,peace
puff adder
Member
Could you elaborate on how you used the SM-90? Did you use it in the water or use it as a spray.
I love the stuff. It works pretty good on Powdery mildew.
My plants are in early veg, and I had root aphids. I applied the Imid/Bayer tree and shrub, 2 applications a week apart, and it appears to have dealt with the aphids. I am very happy about this.
I use SM-90 both in the water/nutrients and as a foliar.
I think however, IF you have powdery mildew, or are prone to getting PM, and you are considering using a sulfur burner, that SM-90 should be considered the same as Neem, and one should wait at least a couple weeks to a month before using a sulfur burner.
I got PM for the first time ever, and in my new room, I'm holding off on using neem or SM-90 so that I have the option of using the sulfur burner.
I love the stuff. It works pretty good on Powdery mildew.
My plants are in early veg, and I had root aphids. I applied the Imid/Bayer tree and shrub, 2 applications a week apart, and it appears to have dealt with the aphids. I am very happy about this.
I use SM-90 both in the water/nutrients and as a foliar.
I think however, IF you have powdery mildew, or are prone to getting PM, and you are considering using a sulfur burner, that SM-90 should be considered the same as Neem, and one should wait at least a couple weeks to a month before using a sulfur burner.
I got PM for the first time ever, and in my new room, I'm holding off on using neem or SM-90 so that I have the option of using the sulfur burner.
SM90: the over-priced, semi-effective additive that may be useful in hydro
SM90: the over-priced, semi-effective additive that may be useful in hydro
SM90: In the water to kill gnat larvae and suppress root pathogens (generally 1-2.5 mL/gal)
Bti (gnatrol, vectobac, Microbe-Lift BMC, mosquito dunks) is far more effective for gnats and is all-natural. SM90 may be more desirable in a hydro/aero system, however, as Bti may not live long in the nutrient-water and will be consumed by other organisms as it dies off. If you have a well-colonized root zone (are using companion etc) this will probably not be an issue, as it will just feed the beneficials.
Mosquito dunks don't work added directly to hydro/aero systems or systems with any sort of sprayer/spray-stake (as they break up in a bunch of chunks). Mosquito dunks are the cheapest (initial cost) solution to gnats but are a pain to use. To use mosquito dunks effectively they should be put in a sock or other straining-device (wrapped in a T-shirt, cheese-cloth... whatever) and placed in CHLORINE-FREE water. Let the water sit out for a while first if it is from city municipal tap-water. Make sure your water does not have chloramines in it (check your water purity sheet or call your water company) which will kill any biological additives. If your water has chloramine in it, you may as well use SM90 and/or DM Zone which will do more to "keep things clean" instead of using biological controls UNLESS you use a RO filter to remove the chloramine, as it will not evaporate. Use some sort of weight to keep the mosquito-dunk submerged in the water for at least 18-24 hours (a bit longer may even be better) so the Bti will move out into the water. Agitating it may help a bit. It may also be helpful to feed the Bti - though I have not looked into this. (UN-sulfured molasses would be my first recommendation). After the dunk has sat in water for at least 18 hrs, add the dunk-water to your res or to your normal watering, or use it straight (depending on how much water you submerged the dunk in). If you just toss a mosquito dunk into the res or into the watering-bucket before watering it will not work very well, as most of the Bti will still be hanging out in the little chunks of fiber. I would also use lower-strength ferts when watering with Bti or just use plain water, as high nutrient-salt content is harmful to many microorganisms.
SM90 As a spray to keep leaf-fungi away: 10-100 mL/gal (they tell you to use far more, which is exorbitantly expensive)
SM90 is very expensive as a spray additive in large quantities. Serenade is a natural anti-fungal (biological) and will likely work better. Companion fungicide is also a biological control (they are different strains of the same bacteria) and is generally better for the root zone than SM90.
SM90 is decent as a preventative but costs too much. It is a chemical (triethanolamine and sulphonated canola oil for those who care about such things) and is mostly oil, which precludes sulfur burning in the case that it does not effectively prevent fungal outbreak (not that I recommend sulfur burning, though!). It does not compete for the living space on leaves or roots, it does not consume exudates the plant puts out (which will eventually serve as food for something, as the SM90 is not strong enough to kill off all the stuff that wants to feed on plant exudates). SM90 does not do anything to repair damaged roots and is far less effective once damage or pathogens are present at "keeping things clean" - see my info on beneficials and "keeping it clean" (in my first post and another later on).
The way I look at it is that SM90 is a nice preventative when you don't have anything particularly harmful around; it keeps the pussy-pathogens away when the plant is in perfect health. As soon as a product is actually necessitated, however, due to root or leaf damage, fungal outbreak on roots or leaves or stems, SM90 won't cut it.
Bottom line for me: use something stronger from the start or save the money. Serenade and Companion are better at doing what SM90 wishes it could do, they are cheaper per application and they are completely natural (biological control methods). For me it is a no-brainer.
SM90: the over-priced, semi-effective additive that may be useful in hydro
SM90: In the water to kill gnat larvae and suppress root pathogens (generally 1-2.5 mL/gal)
Bti (gnatrol, vectobac, Microbe-Lift BMC, mosquito dunks) is far more effective for gnats and is all-natural. SM90 may be more desirable in a hydro/aero system, however, as Bti may not live long in the nutrient-water and will be consumed by other organisms as it dies off. If you have a well-colonized root zone (are using companion etc) this will probably not be an issue, as it will just feed the beneficials.
Mosquito dunks don't work added directly to hydro/aero systems or systems with any sort of sprayer/spray-stake (as they break up in a bunch of chunks). Mosquito dunks are the cheapest (initial cost) solution to gnats but are a pain to use. To use mosquito dunks effectively they should be put in a sock or other straining-device (wrapped in a T-shirt, cheese-cloth... whatever) and placed in CHLORINE-FREE water. Let the water sit out for a while first if it is from city municipal tap-water. Make sure your water does not have chloramines in it (check your water purity sheet or call your water company) which will kill any biological additives. If your water has chloramine in it, you may as well use SM90 and/or DM Zone which will do more to "keep things clean" instead of using biological controls UNLESS you use a RO filter to remove the chloramine, as it will not evaporate. Use some sort of weight to keep the mosquito-dunk submerged in the water for at least 18-24 hours (a bit longer may even be better) so the Bti will move out into the water. Agitating it may help a bit. It may also be helpful to feed the Bti - though I have not looked into this. (UN-sulfured molasses would be my first recommendation). After the dunk has sat in water for at least 18 hrs, add the dunk-water to your res or to your normal watering, or use it straight (depending on how much water you submerged the dunk in). If you just toss a mosquito dunk into the res or into the watering-bucket before watering it will not work very well, as most of the Bti will still be hanging out in the little chunks of fiber. I would also use lower-strength ferts when watering with Bti or just use plain water, as high nutrient-salt content is harmful to many microorganisms.
SM90 As a spray to keep leaf-fungi away: 10-100 mL/gal (they tell you to use far more, which is exorbitantly expensive)
SM90 is very expensive as a spray additive in large quantities. Serenade is a natural anti-fungal (biological) and will likely work better. Companion fungicide is also a biological control (they are different strains of the same bacteria) and is generally better for the root zone than SM90.
SM90 is decent as a preventative but costs too much. It is a chemical (triethanolamine and sulphonated canola oil for those who care about such things) and is mostly oil, which precludes sulfur burning in the case that it does not effectively prevent fungal outbreak (not that I recommend sulfur burning, though!). It does not compete for the living space on leaves or roots, it does not consume exudates the plant puts out (which will eventually serve as food for something, as the SM90 is not strong enough to kill off all the stuff that wants to feed on plant exudates). SM90 does not do anything to repair damaged roots and is far less effective once damage or pathogens are present at "keeping things clean" - see my info on beneficials and "keeping it clean" (in my first post and another later on).
The way I look at it is that SM90 is a nice preventative when you don't have anything particularly harmful around; it keeps the pussy-pathogens away when the plant is in perfect health. As soon as a product is actually necessitated, however, due to root or leaf damage, fungal outbreak on roots or leaves or stems, SM90 won't cut it.
Bottom line for me: use something stronger from the start or save the money. Serenade and Companion are better at doing what SM90 wishes it could do, they are cheaper per application and they are completely natural (biological control methods). For me it is a no-brainer.
