Fungus gnats or WINGED ROOT APHIDS???

[Greyskull]

This maybe a dumb question but do I PH the water? ANd what is the PH for dirt?

i didnt ph the solution before i drenched my plants.. just mixed and spilled hehe

Also please chime in if anyone has fed their plants imid in veg and have finished the whole flowering period on what the FINAL results were as far as bud quality and plant resilience during the grow..

I have fed plants in veg 5 days before transplanting into 12/12.
I had ZERO issues - same yeild same 'look' same aroma same taste same $$$

i believe former member kushism reported feeding while 2/3 weeks INTO flower with zero negative repercussions..... that info is in scay beez's thread

 

[RetroGrow]

^^^forgive me retro, i did not read the whole thread...i have a small garden and i have some pots that have been infected for couple months, still alive...think the bayer would be good enough to treat the rest of em? or because of time frame they have been potentially exposed should i go with the hardcore stuff in your experience?

Either one will do the job.
The Bayer is fine. Same active ingredient as Merit. Merit is used in greenhouses with massive grows. It's concentrated so can be diluted to make large amounts of solution, which you don't need in a small garden. I got 100% kill with the Bayer Advanced Complete Insect Killer. It's only .7% imid, but is systemic, so is taken in by the plant where it keeps killing, breaking their life cycle, and any other pests that might be present, like fungus gnats. It's really the only way to control the root aphids, because it will also kill the ones that hatch in your environment after the initial drench. This is key in getting them out of your place.

 

[Liteyouup]

I could only find the Bayer Tree and Shrub today. I'm ordering the Merit 75wp but it'll be a week before I see it, and they've made their way into the veg room too. I need to treat now even if they need another one after the merit arrives.
What dosage should I use?

Also, I have some that are flowering, 3 weeks from harvest on one light, and 50-60 days on the rest. I need to treat the flowering ones too, and I'll just make sure they're not harvested less than 50 days from now, except for the one batch. What can I use on the ones that are 3 weeks away? I have some Spectracide Malathion but don't know if I should try it....

Any suggestions would be helpful.

 

[Neo 420]

I could only find the Bayer Tree and Shrub today. I'm ordering the Merit 75wp but it'll be a week before I see it, and they've made their way into the veg room too. I need to treat now even if they need another one after the merit arrives.
What dosage should I use?

Also, I have some that are flowering, 3 weeks from harvest on one light, and 50-60 days on the rest. I need to treat the flowering ones too, and I'll just make sure they're not harvested less than 50 days from now, except for the one batch. What can I use on the ones that are 3 weeks away? I have some Spectracide Malathion but don't know if I should try it....

Any suggestions would be helpful.

On the ladies 3 weeks from harvest use the Spectracide. DO NOT USE THE BAYER OR MERIT ON THESE PLANTS.

 

[spleebale]

Recently I scoped my leaves and found a bunch of ugly looking things, most of which I was not able to identify or fully

understand. There are many little pokey-hairs on the bottoms of leaves, particilarly along veins, which I took to be cystolith

hairs. However, in some areas they appeared to be infected (a few stray individuals here and there among thousands seemed to have

some black stuff inside. Others - in small patches- seemed to have some sort of infection at their base, where it was white (from

further out the area looked like it was speckled or dotted) until I looked closely and realized it was the little cyctolith hairs

rising up from little circles of whiteness around them - perhaps this is a residue from a foliar spray, but it seemed like

infection. Then there were occasionally a few different microscopic bodies of various sorts - perhaps the most disturbing of

which were flesh-colored. These often seemed to have hair-like structures which protruded out and seemingly into the plant,

however I reserve the potential that these were just tiny bits of random debris sometimes stuck to a minute fiber of some sort.

Then there were the most ubiquitous anomalies which were all these TEENY spheres - about 1/4 to 1/3 the diameter of a mite

egg (microscopic) that appeared almost everywhere, especially on my more sickly looking leaves that were starting to show

signs of infection (though there were few parts of any leaves I could find anywhere that did not have these all over). When I

first saw them I assumed they were eggs of some sort, but they were almost everywhere (like pores or something) and I was not

able to spot any other bugs but spider mites (whose eggs are obvious).

In some areas they looked like hemi-spheres or like droplets that were clinging to the leaf, while about 5-10% of them appeared

to be more spherical (to have a bit of depth as though they were full spheres up on top of the leaf - more like the mite eggs but

about 1/16th the volume). I was inclined to think these were trichomes at one point (but these are all vegetative leaves and I

was unable to get any depth appearance - I am pretty positive it would not take 60X magnification to see trichomes (trichs are

visible with the naked eye) and that at 100X I would be able to easily see the stalk and all, where with these I just saw little

spheres or hemi-spheres with no stalk.

So I started thinking perhaps they were little beads of "sweat" or something the plant was excreting - because they were very

regularly spaced and EVERYWHERE. In the areas of necrotic tissue they are much more pronounced (with the scope at 60X+) and they

appear to be more amber colored, but this may just be because they are transparent and appear amber against the tan necrotic-leaf

backdrop. They also seem to exist all over the top surface of leaves as well, though they do not appear as a sphere - they look

like a broken blister or a boil almost; like they popped. But they also cover basically all of the tops of leaves.

Does anyone have ANY idea what these are???


I am heavily leaning toward fungal pathogens being my biggest issue at this point, whether or not those things are natural plant

excretions or connected to pathogens.



First, from "A review of Cannabis diseases" by J. M. McPartland:
http://www.hempfood.com/Iha/iha03111.html

" The two most common leaf spot diseases are yellow leaf spot caused by two Septoria species (McPartland 1995d), and brown

leaf spot caused by about eight Phoma and Ascochyta species (McPartland 1995c). These diseases rarely kill plants but

sharply reduce crop yields. Two common diseases of fiber varieties are downy mildew, caused by two Pseudoperonospora species,

and olive leaf spot caused by a Pseudocercospora species and a Cercospora species. Pink rot, caused by Trichothecium roseum, has

recently killed greenhouse-grown drug cultivars and seems to be on the rise. Less frequently seen but equally virulent diseases

include brown blight (caused by two Alternaria and two Stemphylium species), anthracnose (caused by two Colletotrichum species)

and white leaf spot (caused by Phomopsis ganjae). Powdery mildews, black mildews, and rusts are caused by high-visibility fungi,

but rarely cause serious problems (McPartland 1983).
Some leaf disease fungi also infest stems, especially Trichothecium roseum, Phoma, Stemphylium, Colletotrichum, and Phomopsis

species. The most serious causes of stem cankers are Fusarium species—F. graminearum and F. avenaceum occur in cooler climates,

F. sulphureum and F. sambucinum in warmer climates.
Some root rots cause serious losses. Barloy & Pelhate (1962) considered root rot caused by Fusarium solani the worst

disease of hemp in France. Pandotra & Sastry (1967) report a virulent strain of Rhizoctonia solani destroying 80% of

drug plants in northern India. Root rot by Sclerotium rolfsii predominates in southern temperate zones and the tropics, on

both fiber and drug cultivars (Ferri 1961).
Above-ground symptoms of root rots are hard to distinguish from wilt diseases. Three wilt diseases are important—fusarium

wilt caused by two forms of Fusarium oxysporum, verticillium wilt caused by two Verticillium species, and premature wilt (also

called charcoal rot) caused by Macrophomina phaseolina. Fusarium wilt received attention as a potential biocontrol to

eliminate illegal marijuana plantations (Hildebrand & McCain 1978, Noviello et al. 1990). Wilt diseases are more severe in

Cannabis fields harboring root-wounding nematodes or broomrape."

You hear that? So what have we all learned? - It is a bad idea to harbor broomrape in your grow! Just don't do it! I know

it is tempting... the broom is just sitting there... and no one is around... Just don't do it! It will make the wilt worse

(presumably the plants are disgusted by it).

Sorry. - Have to allow for a little humor in the somber atmosphere this terrible subject comes along with.


Anyhow, I am gonna post some pics from a little Google image searching - I know these are not all necessarily the same

sub-species (or even necessarily species) of fungi we are dealing with - and I know the plants are different too, but this is

just to paint a picture (as many may still think this is something happening mostly internally, I am changing perspective that it

is more that plant health is diminished, making it susceptible to all sorts of attacks - these fungi are mostly just

opportunistic, I think, and take hold where/when the plant can't defend itself)

Yellow Leaf Spot [Septoria]:

Brown Leaf Spot [Phoma and Ascochyta species]
[Phoma]

[Ascochyta]

Olive Leaf Spot [Cercosprora
http://www.botany.hawaii.edu/faculty/gardner/diseases/other%20diseases/Cercospora%20leaf%20spot%20on%20Alphitonia%20ponderos

a.jpg

Brown Leaf Spot Alternia and Stemphylium:

[Alternia]

http://test1.icrisat.org/Vasat1/learning_resources/crops/groundnut/gnut_diseases/html/m3l1/resources/Alternaria__Leaf_Blight

.JPG
[Alternia]

[Stemphylium]

[Stemphylium]



anthracnose caused by Colletotrichum

[Colletotrichum]

[Colletotrichum]



White Leaf Spot: Phomopsis

[Phomopsis]

[Phomopsis]

[note: there are many species of Phomopsis, as with most of these fungi - Phomopsis ganjae photos not available.]




And then there are the bacterial infections:

[Pseudomonas syringae]


And less common:

[Xanthomonas campestris]



Notes from the literature:
"These diseases rarely kill plants but sharply reduce crop yields"

(Anything above look/sound familiar???)



Here is a good link for identifying which you may be dealing with. Unfortunately they all look very similar (to some

degree) yet the damage/appearance of each will also very significantly from one plant type to another. Fortunately the treatments

will all be very similar (though there will be a bit of variation between fungal and bacterial infections - but it is likely most

are fungal)


So it is clear that what most of us are dealing with (besides RAs) is fungi (or perhaps bacteria). Some brief reading led

me to discover a large-scale greenhouse tomato farmer who claimed to have lost FAR more crop/potential yield from fungi than from

insects and viruses put together. Fungi are clearly the underestimated and under-recognized doom-pests (along with the RAs, which

I now believe are particularly bad because they act as vectors for these diseases and make the plant vulnerable.

Fungi JUST FIT THE FACTS. Besides the many things I have yet to identify that seemed likely to be fungal, there are the

photos above and the other facts: many people get rid of RAs and "problems" associated with them with just chems... while others

can get rid of the bugs but not the problems.

Also: the two people who have receive plants from me do just fine with them (where viruses are supposedly forever... I don't

think they would just completely disappear) Also: my main grow space has a large intake fan blowing straight into the room from

the back side of my house (which is shady and stays damp) and does not have a hepa or any type of filter more than the window

screen. This are has ALWAYS been the worst, and yet my closet which is not in that room seems not to struggle with issues nearly

the same.
Also: plants seemed to start popping up with these "problems" soon after I would do foliar sprays - and it seemed irrespective of

what I was spraying them with (allowing spores to take hold/spreading them).


So right-off I have to give props to RG for suggesting the fungal thing; because I expected fungi to be visible (grey

mold, powdery mildew) I did not even ever CONSIDER this option (and I am sure most growers do not).RG: if we can kick this thing

by using fungal controls then I owe you some seeds or something - you will be my hero. This is still yet unconfirmed, but I think

that RG has identified the official cause of "phantom nutrient deficiency/lockout" that so many growers get and that seem to come

along with RAs and that seems to stay even after they are gone.

So I feel a bit dumb for not having read "A review of Cannabis diseases" by J. M. McPartland - as I know this is one of the top

books on plant disease, if not THE authority. Far too people seem to ignore the existence of such things until they are wrapped

up in them and have no idea what's going on (*hand raised* - like me).

So this is all still yet unconfirmed, but I call out to all my people struggling with random leaf issues that persist and

will not be eliminated with control of the RAs:


As I see it there are five separate goals as far as conquering fungal issues:

1)Kill fungal bodies and spores currently on plants/infecting leaves
2)Introduce competitive microorganisms to occupy leaves
3)Kill fungi and spores in medium/on roots of currently existing plants
4)Re-introduce beneficial, competitive microorganisms to the roots
5)Kill fungi and spores in the environment and on equipment and anything else that may be contaminated.

Clearly ALL of these are far easier (some not even necessary) if you scrap any infected plants and start over (where

moving is most ideal).

Also: you may need to change some environmental elements (lowering humidity, increasing circulation, filtering air

intake) as these may be central causes (if you provide a wonderful home for fungi they will keep finding it and settling in).

But in the end (unfortunately) we are probably going to have to buy yet more things to combat fungi.

Sooo... let's try some anti-fungal products! There are so many different products/approaches that we really need to come

together and try different things to get a good sense of what works.

Note that different products will help with each of the five established goals - just spraying another microorganism (serenade,

mycostop etc) everywhere is probably not going to cut it. Most likely you need to disinfect (kill what is there), and then

re-innoculate with the good micro-organisms so they can take over - if there is already an infection of something else there is

less likelihood of the beneficial micro-organisms taking over.

To address each of the five above goals:

1)Kill fungi on leaves: Spraying leaves seems necessary - but with what?
Top recommendations (not having any experience with intentionally killing leaf fungi):
Oxidate!!! This stuff may be THE product to do a fungal

death-spray which does not hurt plants. Unless this product is just H2O2 (which I am pretty sure it is not) this is perhaps

THE best thing for killing everything, not hurting plants and leaving NO residue (you can probably spray them in LATE bloom to

help prevent botrytis and then just blow them off with a fan!)



Also: Excel LG Systemic Fungicide

(Mono- and di- potassium salts of phosphorous acid) Is a SYSTEMIC Fungicide that is listed for fruits and veggies! This is

very promising!

Also:
Alude Systemic Fungicide seems to be the same product.

These products seem from minimal research to be one of the safer systemic fungicide applications.



Also: Fungastop, Fungus Pharm (these are products made with essential oils of plants which are potent anti-fungals and

anti-bacterials)

Dilute H2O2? Alcohol? [I imagine there are also some potent home-made anti-fungal sprays people use for PM etc... please

help me look into this] One link:

http://www.ehow.com/facts_5763632_hydroponic-fungici

de-treatment.html

(though note: home-made sprays, especially with baking soda, work by dramatically altering pH which neither kills everything nor

makes the plant happy - as soon as you restore the pH, here comes the fungus again!)

I highly recommend using a fungicide of some sort, spraying it off with clean water (with some soap or other surfactant) and then

using a beneficial to re-colonize.


2)Re-populate leaves w/ good-guys: Mycostop (Streptomyces griseoviridis) , Serenade (bacillus subtilus) and perhaps

any good AACTs (actively aerated compost teas) will work well. What is most important is that we find which organisms are best at

both colonizing and also holding their own - it may involve a dual application (for example Serenade to help kill off remaining

fungi and then a fungus to help colonize)

3)H2O2 is good for hydro people (don't be afraid to do a REAL strong dunk or brief watering with super-strong H2O2 - yes it will

burn the roots, but new roots will grow back quickly when all the fungus is dead. Always use Hygrozyme or another enzyme w/ H2O2

(low-strength H2O2 in res) or after H2O2 (high-strength brief-application of H2O2) - Hygrozyme will help dissolve all of the dead

tissue and turn it into carbohydrates.

4)

5) Physan 20 has been mentioned, Fungaflor TR (Total Release Fungicide "Bomb"),



Then there are the systemic fungicides, which I would probably recommend for people in wet systems (coco that does not get

to dry out really well, hydro etc) or for anyone who has been having issues with plants not drinking anymore. Keep in mind that

systemics will always work FAR better when there is not a bad infection already. If there is already an infection it may be best

to use H2O2 or another contact fungicide first and then apply the systemic.

Aliette seems to be the most effective root-rot/pythium systemic fungicide, but does not seem to be available in smaller

quantities ($100 for a large bag is the lowest I could find it; can anyone find a cheaper source???) This is NOT for

regular/continual use but as a one to three time application spaced at intervals of 2 weeks+. This stuff is a fully systemic

fungicide and seems to be the most potent/effective, however it also sounds NASTY. I would not spray it indoors. If I were to use

it I would only do a root-drench or watering with it, I would be careful with any run-off and I would wear protective gloves and

a respirator with multi-chemical cartridges when I used it (or would apply it outside and try not to breathe it).



3336WP - is systemic, can be used as a dip for

cuttings, root drench or foliar spray but also CARCINOGENIC.

Propiconazole: ("Fertilome: Liquid Systemic Fungicide," "Bonide: Infuse" and also "Banner Maxx" and "Honor Guard" all contain

Propiconazole; the latter two are about 10X as strong as the first two; so though they are more expensive theyare a better value)

- Propiconazole seems VERY promising as one of the most potent and least harmful systemic approaches.


There is also "pythoff" (based from monochloramine, an oxidizing agent) which appears to be only available int he UK.

And

Hydro-Fungicide which seems perfect for people fighting pythium in hydro.

Many people have also suggested chlorine (yes, supermarket Bleach) as an additive to hydro in order to sterilize. Apparently it

works similar to H2O2 but will not break down as soon - apparently it has longer residual effect. People have recommended 8

drops/gallon before adding nutes (let it fully incorporate) as a preventative and up to 16 drops/gal to fight outbreaks. I think

that (As with H2O2) this is better as a preventative when there are no problems as higher concentrations sufficient to kill all

pathogens will severely damage roots. Obviously (As with H2O2) this "cleaner" method is mutually exclusive with beneficial

microorganisms, organics and most enzymes (one or the other!).

Bonide Mancozeb Flowable 16 oz.

From:

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/31865515/Biological-C

ontrol-of-Root-Diseases

"The most effective BCA [biological control agent] that reduced RSR [Fusarium oxysporum rot] and DO [damping off - pythium rot]

was Gliocladium catenulatum strain J1446 (PreStop, PreStop Mix), while Streptomyces griseoviridis strain K61

(Mycostop) also reduced the severity of these diseases to some degree. Trichoderma harzianum strain T-22 (PlantShield)

and T. virens strain GL-21 (SoilGard) had no significant effect on either disease."

-So it seems that Trichoderma and T.virens are perhaps only good at colonizing the are ahead of time to ward off pathogenic fungi

and not actually fighting the battle for the territory given present infection.

Gliocladium catenulatum is in the following:
Glio- mix*, SoilGard*, Primastop*, and Prestop* ( all which do not appear to be available yet)

etridiazole, etridiazole + thiophanate methyl, fosetyl-Al, mefenoxam, metalaxyl and propamocarb. Biological agents that can help

control this organism include Gliocladium [presumably catenulatum], Trichoderma, Bacillus and Streptomyces

Good link on

Pythium

From: http://www.actahort.org/books/98/98_31.htm
"A combination of etridiazole (20 ppm) or ethyl phosphonate (40 ppm) and carbendazim or benomyl (40 ppm) placed in the nutrient

solution is suggested in the event of disease outbreak in NFT systems. "

"Etridiazole, furalaxyl, metalaxyl and copper oxinate were tested for their effects on the growth of species of Phytophthora and

Pythium. These effects differed considerably, some species being more tolerant than others. Even at low concentrations the first

three fungicides prevented zoospore formation. The formulations used were: etridiazole as Aaterra W.P., copper oxinate as

Quinolate 400 obtained from Duphar Midox, Smarden, Kent. Furalaxyl and metalaxyl as Fongarid and Ridomil, respectively, obtained

from Ciba Geigy, Cambridge.



From: http://www.actahort.org/books/98/98_29.htm:
"Mixtures of etridiazole and copper oxinate were more effective than either alone in preventing growth of most species tested."




I have to mention that you need to do your own research on any of these antifungals, as I have done none. Many of these chemicals

are harmful to humans (some can be lethal) and applying them to the root zone may have the unintended side-effect of the plant

absorbing them! In general anything with copper in it is somewhat harmful to very harmful to humans.

I have to once again mention that inducing the plant's own immune response may be one of the most effective ways of dealing with

these problems, even though they are likely fungal (but even if they are viral you will likely see improvement).

Once again, the common products for this are:
Bud Factor X (AN) - Salicylic Acid
Foliar BLOOM A+B (Advanced Floriculture - the yellow bottles)
Messenger (foliar additive - comes in small packets - Harpin protein)
and possibly also Aspirin (acetylsalicilic acid) - one-two 325 mg pills/gal spray. (Can probably also be watered-in)

From this article:

http://www.apsnet.org/phyto/PDFS/1999/0712-01R.PDF

"Challenge inoculation of SA-treated tomato plants using conidia of A. solani resulted in 83% fewer lesions per leaf and a 77%

reduction in blighted leaf area as compared with control plants not receiving SA"

-Basically using SA (Salicylic Acid) significantly helped ward off Alternaria (almost certainly something some of us are dealing

with)

These immune-boosters are NO JOKE. The guy at my hydro shop also told me about plants in the store that were infected with

a nasty virus (I forget what) and were all dying except the ones he sprayed with Foliar BLOOM to test it - so he did it to the

rest and they all lived and all signs of the virus disappeared!

There is also this Australian product (Microbial) which seems to boost plant immunity but also help create a beneficial root zone

which may (if it lives up to the sales hype) be the best product for hydroponics prevention of disease (and possibly treatment of

root pathogens):

http://www.microbial.com.au/

Apparently it is available in AU and the UK but not the US or Canada :-( (though I have not called any distributors overseas to

see whether they would ship it).


Here are some other products which may help:

Companion Biological Fungicide ("A highly concentrated liquid Bacillus subtilis GB03") [*There are different strains of B.

subtilis and the strain type matters):

http://www.amhydro.com/index.php/Grower-G

ear/Companion-Biological-Fungicide.html


Daconil (is

Chlorothalonil) - a non-systemic broad-spectrum contact fungicide.

From: http://www.ehow.com/facts_5763632_hydroponic-fungicide-treatment.html:

"Fungicide can be made at home by mixing 5 teaspoons each of baking soda with hydrogen peroxide in a gallon of water" - though

they were talking about to make a foliar spray, this seems like it could probably also work well on roots (if it is not harmful -

TEST FIRST on ONE!)

I found this gardener's discussion helpful too:

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/tomato/msg0214020522125.html




***Sorry, I messed up the formatting on this post.... I am still not done with it, the research is just taking me far longer than I wanted to and organizing this huge article is a massive pain in the ass. For now the top fore-runners are:

Aliette (most effective overall it seems but also super toxic), Propiconazole (Fertilome: Liquid Systemic Fungicide," "Bonide: Infuse" and also "Banner Maxx" and "Honor Guard) and Mono- and di-potassium salts of Phosphorous Acid (Exel LG, Alude) are the three most promising systemics.

Oxidate, Fungastop and Fungus Pharm look promising as safe contact killers (particularly Oxidate for late into bloom use)

Serenade, Myco Stop and perhaps Aqua Shield are good candidates for re-colonization of foliar territory with beneficial/competitive organisms.

Gliocladium catenulatum-containing products have been patented and tested to be found as one of the most potent biological fungicides but do not seem to be commercially available yet.

Physan 20 and Fungaflor TR are among the products that can be used to help clean utensils and areas. Fungaflor should be used with care around plants as it seems to have the same potential for hosing plants that other total-release "bombs" do - any of the just-expanding gas from the bomb that comes in contact with plants will harm them.

 

[RetroGrow]

Good post.
One thing to remember when dealing with fungi: clean your air! Spores travel on the wind, so a hepa filter or two can help, as well as negative ion generators.

 

[ItsGrowTime]

The yellow spot picture (first one) looks the most like what my leaves do. Found this interesting tidbit while searching "yellow leaf spot":

Barley Yellow Dwarf Virus (BYDV)
BYDV is caused by a group of viruses that are transmitted by aphids. Aphids migrate into crops during the autumn and spring. Cool summers that encourage volunteer cereals foster high populations of aphids. Long season crops sown in the high rainfall areas are vulnerable to BYDV.

What to look for
Symptoms of BYDV often occur in patches. Bright yellowing or bronzing of the leaves and interveinal chlorosis are the typical symptoms of BYDV. In oats, the leaves tend to become red in colour.

There's definitely a connection between the aphids and secondary viral and fungal infections. Even if you rid the aphids, the viruses are still present and passed through cloning and seed production. Good write up spleebale...let's keep digging into this.

 

[HooT]

My Allies!!! I need to know what you think.

My Allies!!! I need to know what you think.

After 2 applications of Bayer t&s (At 25-30ml a gal) as well as 3 applications of spectricied (40ml a gal) I have still found them some what thriving. The roots did indeed make a come back but I'm afraid it's too late for my 6 year old NYCD mom as she has what i believe to be hemp streak virus. I laid her to rest last night with the most proper burial I could (considering it was a commando dump in a city garbage can...lololol). I have never found a more suitable strain for scroging nor a taste and smell that I fell in love with like her. I will miss her so much!!!

R.I.P NYCD.

I will be looking into the seed market now as I refuse to accept any clones from anyone. Plus, all my friends moved to CALI and also have this problem. So... I have ordered seeds in the past but didn't make it through customs, prolly cause I ordered them through some dutch passion company... sound familiar? Anyway, to all of you that have successfully ordered seeds, what company did you use and what is the safest route? I would love to get some NYCD seeds again, or another scrog worthy strain that yielded like her.
Also, I have trashed everything. Pots, trays, rez, pumps, tubes, and was considering getting rid of my lights and fans and all together staring totally fresh.... I just got my 3 1/2 x 3 1/2 grow tent that will stay in a contaminate free area for as-long as it takes.
Should I throw away my nutes or wipe down all bottles with say, 30-40% bleach solution?? And, I dont have the option of moving the site but I am soon to be a DAD (yeah) and could use a break for say 2 or 3 months. Now, my plan is to steam, spray and clean the room every sunday for 3 months straight. DO YOU THINK THIS WILL BE ENOUGH TO KILL ANY STRAGGLERS???? Plus, if there is no more food or plants I can only pray that they will just crawl away or that 3 months of cleaning(which might sound over board) will be enough to break any life cycle they might have as-well as destroy any over wintering eggs they might have left in some very odd places.... I will buy all new equipment (pots, lights, trays, medium, tent, fans if I have to) and will go super heavy on the beneficial insects, nematodes and mite predators, as well as bacteria and fungus in hopes to prevent any future outbreaks. I'm not ready to give up, but a little break in the right time I feel will be good for my constant mind fuck and my disintegrating relationships with friends and family.

Soo...

Clean every Sunday (spray, steam, bleach, wipe) for 3 months to eliminate any possibility of stragglers

buy all new shit, unless if you think my fans, filters and lights can be cleaned well enough to eradicate them, maybe let them sit in a steam room for a day?? Paranoid much?

Start from seed while maybe using a different medium than coco( or use 50/50 perlite/coco with an inch of perlite on the bottom and an inch of perlite or DE on the top?)

maybe switch from drip to ebb & flow only wetting the bottom 1/3 of the pots so the tops stay really dry while using an arsenal of bennies and micro herds??

If you see a flaw in my plan, please point it out. Or any other ideas, well, suggest them.

I am at my wits end and feel this is the only way to get my sanity back..lololol...

Thank You all,

Your Brother in Arms,
HOOT

 

[RetroGrow]

Sounds like a plan. I am surprised the Treatment didn't work for you. It killed all my root aphids, but plants still had to be destroyed due to other pathogens attacking the plants.
At least, now we know what to look for, so if it happens again, you will see it right away. I would suggest starting a few plants, maybe from some freebie seeds, to see what happens, before planting your whole crop.
As far as seeds, I have never had a problem with Seed Boutique. I've bought a lot of seed from them, and all have arrived promptly. Taking a break for a while sounds like a good idea, to rid your place from any lingering pathogens.
Recommend Physan 20 to sterilize things. It kills molds, fungi, bacteria, and viruses. I spray it on everything, including walls, floors, bathrooms, and everything else.

 

[Greyskull]

After 2 applications of Bayer t&s (At 25-30ml a gal) as well as 3 applications of spectricied (40ml a gal) I have still found them some what thriving.... HOOT

hoot , you can order seeds thru seedbay or seedboutique - thats easy.

now if you get a hold of some sure to kill every motherfucking root aphid in your garden MERIT75WP you wont need to do a complete equipment teardown/cleaning/replacement. that'll be easy, too.

unless you like doing all that extra stuff of course. any aphids that arent hiding in the rootball when you drench the plants are gonna die once they try to take a bite of your plants (and they wont be able to reproduce!!!!) since they will be 'vaccinated' if you will. good luck.

 

[Fat J]

The T&S should have done the same thing... its the same ingredient - imidachlorpid. I suspect maybe the watering schedule rendered the treatments less effective? They reccomend to make sure not to water a lot after treatment or it wont work. And even with sucessful treatment you will see em for a couple weeks popping uip and promptly dying.

Hey RG - you got Physan stock or something? ^.^ Isn't physan a chemical cousin of dioxin and extremely toxic and persistant? or is that another agent im thinkin of? I like bleach - works just as good, becomes inert after 36-48 hrs of o2 exposure and it costs a buck a gallon. still pretty toxic to ppl, but that comes with the territory if you're trying to kil everything. I just use 15% bleach solution and spray with a respirator mask on. Won't the physan prevent your "new herd" from forming? Maybe im just too stoned 2 remember the stats on physan. I personally dont even like antibacterial soap, but it appears I was lucky and didnt end up with a secondary infection, bout 2 harvest some of my best ever. RA still gone, though I see a fungus gnat occasionally.

 

[Greyskull]

The T&S should have done the same thing... its the same ingredient - imidachlorpid. I suspect maybe the watering schedule rendered the treatments less effective? They reccomend to make sure not to water a lot after treatment or it wont work.

T&S and Merit are different
same ingredient-schmame ingredient
75% imid vs 1.74% (or less!!!) imid is not the same thing
if it was the same thing he would not be fighting aphids still.

but maybe it was the watering schedule.... even though imid is a systemic and is taken up by the plant (thats as far as my comprehension of the science goes). maybe its because of the weaker concentration of the generic (same ingredient different recipe) ???

And even with sucessful treatment you will see em for a couple weeks popping uip and promptly dying.

after a single treatment of merit you wont see any dead fuckers at any time after treatment. because you got them all.

for everyone who's been reading my posts in this thread:
i know it seems like i am riding the merit train pretty hard. because i am!!! i dont want anyone to have to fight aphids for any longer than they have to, or any harder than they have to - and merit 75wp is the only way!

HooT got the T&S AND Spectracide and he's saying it didnt work for him.... im just saying...

 

[RetroGrow]

i know it seems like i am riding the merit train pretty hard. because i am!!! i dont want anyone to have to fight aphids for any longer than they have to, or any harder than they have to - and merit 75wp is the only way!

That simply isn't true. Yes, Merit works, but so do the other products that contain Imid. Merit is really made for greenhouse grows with massive amounts of plants, where large amounts of pesticide are needed, as you can make a huge amount of solution from the powder. Of course it will also work in smaller grows, but is probably more than the average "hobbyist" needs.
As reported earlier, all (100%) of my root aphids were killed by a single application of .72% imid. I believe people reporting that they aren't all dying are making a couple mistakes: the drench isn't penetrating the whole rootball, and the infestation is heavy, so maybe all are not killed initially, but they will die later. I think the drench should be done when the pot is relatively dry, so that the imid has a chance to penetrate the medium totally. This can be difficult if the plants are not drinking-the medium is still wet. My place is completely root aphid free after one treatment, however, it is the other opportunistic pathogens that are introduced by the root aphids that cause a lingering problem which can be difficult to diagnose and eradicate.
Bottom line is:
Merit works.
Bayer works.
Ortho works.
People on a budget with small gardens can pick up the Bayer or Ortho in Home Depot/Lowes for $12.

 

[RetroGrow]

The T&S should have done the same thing... its the same ingredient - imidachlorpid. I suspect maybe the watering schedule rendered the treatments less effective? They reccomend to make sure not to water a lot after treatment or it wont work. And even with sucessful treatment you will see em for a couple weeks popping uip and promptly dying.

Hey RG - you got Physan stock or something? ^.^ Isn't physan a chemical cousin of dioxin and extremely toxic and persistant? or is that another agent im thinkin of? I like bleach - works just as good, becomes inert after 36-48 hrs of o2 exposure and it costs a buck a gallon. still pretty toxic to ppl, but that comes with the territory if you're trying to kil everything. I just use 15% bleach solution and spray with a respirator mask on. Won't the physan prevent your "new herd" from forming? Maybe im just too stoned 2 remember the stats on physan. I personally dont even like antibacterial soap, but it appears I was lucky and didnt end up with a secondary infection, bout 2 harvest some of my best ever. RA still gone, though I see a fungus gnat occasionally.

About watering: I think applying the solution works best if the pot is almost dry, so that it becomes completely saturated, and yes, avoid watering it down afterwards.

About physan: the stuff is the bomb.
Hands down the best disinfectant: kills viruses along with bacteria, fungi, molds.
Check out some of RichyRich's posts. He has physan info in his sig.
I have some good info on physan here somewhere which lists some of it's uses. It can also be used as a drench directly on your plants. I'll see if I can find it. It's on my other computer, I think. I'll edit this post when I find it. It's a primer on physan.
O.K., here's some great physan info. I would like to give credit to the person who wrote this, but I forgot where I found it. Invaluable.


Physan 20

I use physan to make sure sterile seedlings go into sterile coco.
Once they are up with seed leaves open gathering light,
I water them daily with pH 6 water for a week, then go to weak nute... when the seed leaves start to yellow I start to increase food...
I have never used a mat, but the room is climate controlled...

One other thing I do, that may be merely superstition but seems to hold true anecdotally, is to germ seeds only during a waxing moon... they seem healthier to me, but I have no hard data proving so...

Quote:
SEEDS/SEEDLINGS/CUT FLOWERS

Cut Flowers in containers, tubes, and decorative vases - Bacterial Stem Plugging.
To eliminate stem plugging (which restricts uptake of water) and to control bacteria and fungi (which create ethylene gas, a cause of petal drop), flower spikes should be hardened by keeping the stems in PHYSAN 20 solution during harvesting, storage and shipping.
USE: 1 teaspoon of PHYSAN 20 concentrate in 1 gallon of water.



Plant Cuttings - Begonia, Chrysanthemum, Fuchsia, and Geranium.
For controlling Crown Gall, Gray Mold Leaf Spots, and Powdery Mildew, soak completely immersed cuttings 2-5 minutes in 1-1/2 teaspoons of PHYSAN 20 concentrate in 1 gallon of water. Plant in compost completely saturated in PHYSAN 20 solution.
USE: 1-1/2 teaspoons of PHYSAN 20 concentrate in 1 gallon of water.



Seeds and Seedlings - Damping Off
Treat seeds and seedlings by soaking in a solution of 1 1/2 teaspoons of PHYSAN 20 concentrate in 1 gallon of water for 5 minutes. Fill the flask containing the seed or seedlings with enough PHYSAN 20 solution to completely cover the seeds/seedlings. Drain the PHYSAN 20 solution off the seeds/seedlings before planting. Use a fresh solution of PHYSAN 20 for each flask.



Seedlings - Damping Off (ornamental plants only)
Make a solution of 1 1/2 teaspoons of PHYSAN 20 concentrate in 1 gallon of water. Soak seedlings in PHYSAN 20 for 5 minutes. Use a soak container large enough to completely immerse one flask of seedlings at a time. Change the solution daily or more often if solution becomes visibly dirty.
If a garden soil is used for planting seedlings, completely saturate the soil in PHYSAN 20. Place the soil in a pot or tray and add enough PHYSAN 20 solution to completely cover the soil. Let the solution drain through the soil or pour off excess.
USE: 1 1/2 teaspoons of PHYSAN 20 concentrate in 1 gallon of water.



PHYSAN 20 solution is effective in stopping the spread of damping off when sprayed on seedlings. Spray seedlings so that all surfaces are thoroughly wet.
USE: 2 tablespoons of PHYSAN 20 concentrate in 3 gallons of water or 2 tsp. PHYSAN 20 concentrate in 1 gallon of water.



Seedlings - Downy Mildew (Ornamental Plants only)
Most common on seedlings. The fungus sporulates on the lower surface of leaves as a white, sparse downy growth. The disease can cause the death of aerial plant parts. Spray seedlings so that all surfaces are thoroughly wet with Physan20 solution at 5-day intervals until under control.
USE: 2 tablespoons of PHYSAN 20 concentrate in 3 gallons of water.

Quote:
CORROSION AND DAMAGE TO MATERIALS: PHYSAN in use dilutions, will not damage or mar natural rubber, glass, painted or plastic surfaces. It is non-corrosive to all metals in normally used applications for swabbing, mopping and rinsing. PHYSAN is non-flammable and non-explosive.

BACTERICIDAL ACTIVITY: PHYSAN has demonstrated bactericidal or bacteristatic activity against a wide spectrum of bacterial organisms such as:
Agrobacterium tumefaciens Pseudomonas sp.
Enterobacter Agglomerans Erwinia cypripedii
Erwinia carotovora Xanthomonas campestris

FUNGICIDAL ACTIVITY: PHYSAN is effective against a wide variety of fungi that may cause rots, rusts, blights, and mildew.
Botrytis cinerea Gnomonia veneta
Fusarium spp. Rhizoctonia solani
Penicillium digitatum Curvularia sp.
Gliocladium roseum Phythium aphanidermatum
Rhodoturula glutinis Helminthosporium sativum
Ophiobolus graminis Puccinia antirrhini
Ceratocystis ulmi Sclerotinia homeocarpa

VIRUCIDAL ACTIVITY: PHYSAN has been tested and proven to be effective in controlling Tobacco Mosaic Virus (TMV) on hard surfaces and tobacco leaves. TMV is the most stable of the viruses which are pathogenic to plants. PHYSAN’s ability to control TMV may indicate that it would be a good product to control other viruses.

PHYTOTOXICITY: PHYSAN generally is not phytotoxic to plants at concentrations below 400 ppm (1/4 ounce per gallon of water). However, this can vary depending on the type of plant and its stage of growth.

 

[Greyskull]

That simply isn't true.

Bayer didnt work for HooT.....

 

[RetroGrow]

Bayer didnt work for HooT.....

Probably a mistake in application/and/or mixing with other stuff which may not be a good thing. Also, in a heavy infestation, some of them take a while to die. Once the plant absorbs the imid, pests who feed on it will die, breaking the life cycle. I had a large mother plant which was still drinking and growing, but had the aphids. The pot (coco) was dry when I applied, and everything died, including springtails, which didn't die immediately, but were gone a week later. One problem, I think, could be that when plants are badly infected, they stop drinking. If they have stopped drinking, hard to absorb the poison through the roots. A foliar spray is in order in this case.
When I killed my mother plant, I did an autopsy.Took it out of the pot and examined it carefully with loop and microscope. Not one living organism in the whole 3 gallons.
Getting rid of viruses and spores is much more difficult than killing root aphids, but God, I hate those bastards.
The other thing I have learned is that if you have a significant problem, it is better to start over than to "treat", because the damage is done, and the plants will not produce well, even if saved. My mother plant had only about 10% live roots, but was still growing rather vigorously. Had to go though, because of secondary infections of unknown origin.

 

[Greyskull]

good luck everyone on your endeavors to rid the dreaded aphids
i wouldnt wish those bugs on anyone...

aloha!

 

[Liteyouup]

What's the recommended dosage on the Bayer T&S?

 

[spleebale]

Please stop all the Bayer vs. Merit discussion. I really hate it when threads get "polluted" because then people have to wade through BS to get important information. I was really proud of everyone for keeping it mostly info and useful discussion for so long.

HG: yes, imid is imid. if you use the same amount of imid it does not matter which product it is in. Greyskull: one sample means very little. Yes, you are happy Merit worked: I am happy for you. I think we all are - we are all here to help each other. Yes, it did not seem to work for HooT... there are all sorts of reasons for why this could be, not the least of which could be plants not drinking (as HG mentioned), watering it out too soon, not using high enough concentration, having many aphids in many areas/eggs in other places, or having different aphid types (as very few people seem to have maintained my suggestion of listing the type they have when they talk about what worked or did not) - people seem to forget that we are actually mutually-commiserating victims of different organisms - likely even different species. If HooT is dealing with a completely different genus of aphids, perhaps they do not respond the same and it would be useful to gain this information. As to touting one brand or another: if you simply multiply the strength on the bottle for what ever product you have you can easily create the same amount (or greater concentrations) of imid with ANY product that contains it - there is no use arguing about this. Many of us are happy that the Bayer products we tried worked. We've mostly moved on. We are mostly dealing with other types of infections now brought on by the root aphids.

Anyone who has ANYTHING to contribute on SECONDARY control methods for root aphids (not imid and not acephate) would be greatly appreciated. (Let's not talk about Pyrethrum or Azatrol/Azamax (Azadirachtin) anymore for that matter either; those matters are basically settled.

Imidacloprid works for ALMOST EVERYONE who uses it at anywhere from 5-25 mL/gal for the standard Bayer or Green Light T&S (Bayer Tree and Shrub which is 1.47% imid to answer your question, LightYou). 5 mL/gal is the recommended dosage (on bottle), while 25 mL/gal seems to make the roots toxic long enough that any late-hatching eggs or mavericks still get killed when they eat root, or otherwise move on (since it lasts much longer when you use more). Adjust your levels based on the product concentration of imid (1.47% in T&S, .74% in Bayer Complete Insect Killer - so it takes twice as much to give the plant the same amount of imid). For the fruit and veggie it takes even more, and for Merit and other concentrates it takes MUCH MUCH less (making it more cost effective if you use a lot).

The more imid you use, the longer it stays around (where 50 day PHI = pre harvest interval - is recommended for tobacco at the normal application rates - though this is probably based n foliar application, as many vegetables have lower listed PHIs).

If you use a lot (25 mL/gal of the T&S or a much smaller amount of Merit - they tell you to use a lot) it will be around for a long time in some amount, though very little is likely to be drawn up into higher tissue (acropetal transsportation) because it is not very water soluble. What is drawn up into the higher tissue will probably be most concentrated in the highest buds and leaves. Again, the more you use, the more likely it is to be effective and the longer/more of it will still be in the plant. That is ALL THERE IS TO KNOW unless you want to look up more information about its safety (which no one really actually seems to do any research on). So please, please stop bickering about brands when I am doing hours and hours of research to forward our collective knowledge and people come on and fill up whole pages of space to argue about nothing.


Sorry to post something that is not useful to read - hopefully it will make this thread more useful and pragmatic in the long run. Please be mindful of what you are sharing with the world and forcing desperate fellow growers to read when they are starving for solid knowledge.

Thank you!

 

[RetroGrow]

Please stop all the Bayer vs. Merit discussion. I really hate it when threads get "polluted" because then people have to wade through BS to get important information. I was really proud of everyone for keeping it mostly info and useful discussion for so long.

HG: yes, imid is imid. if you use the same amount of imid it does not matter which product it is in. Greyskull: one sample means very little. Yes, you are happy Merit worked: I am happy for you. I think we all are - we are all here to help each other. Yes, it did not seem to work for HooT... there are all sorts of reasons for why this could be, not the least of which could be plants not drinking (as HG mentioned), watering it out too soon, not using high enough concentration, having many aphids in many areas/eggs in other places, or having different aphid types (as very few people seem to have maintained my suggestion of listing the type they have when they talk about what worked or did not) - people seem to forget that we are actually mutually-commiserating victims of different organisms - likely even different species. If HooT is dealing with a completely different genus of aphids, perhaps they do not respond the same and it would be useful to gain this information. As to touting one brand or another: if you simply multiply the strength on the bottle for what ever product you have you can easily create the same amount (or greater concentrations) of imid with ANY product that contains it - there is no use arguing about this. Many of us are happy that the Bayer products we tried worked. We've mostly moved on. We are mostly dealing with other types of infections now brought on by the root aphids.

Anyone who has ANYTHING to contribute on SECONDARY control methods for root aphids (not imid and not acephate) would be greatly appreciated. (Let's not talk about Pyrethrum or Azatrol/Azamax (Azadirachtin) anymore for that matter either; those matters are basically settled.

Imidacloprid works for ALMOST EVERYONE who uses it at anywhere from 5-25 mL/gal for the standard Bayer or Green Light T&S (Bayer Tree and Shrub which is 1.47% imid to answer your question, LightYou). 5 mL/gal is the recommended dosage (on bottle), while 25 mL/gal seems to make the roots toxic long enough that any late-hatching eggs or mavericks still get killed when they eat root, or otherwise move on (since it lasts much longer when you use more). Adjust your levels based on the product concentration of imid (1.47% in T&S, .74% in Bayer Complete Insect Killer - so it takes twice as much to give the plant the same amount of imid). For the fruit and veggie it takes even more, and for Merit and other concentrates it takes MUCH MUCH less (making it more cost effective if you use a lot).

The more imid you use, the longer it stays around (where 50 day PHI = pre harvest interval - is recommended for tobacco at the normal application rates - though this is probably based n foliar application, as many vegetables have lower listed PHIs).

If you use a lot (25 mL/gal of the T&S or a much smaller amount of Merit - they tell you to use a lot) it will be around for a long time in some amount, though very little is likely to be drawn up into higher tissue (acropetal transsportation) because it is not very water soluble. What is drawn up into the higher tissue will probably be most concentrated in the highest buds and leaves. Again, the more you use, the more likely it is to be effective and the longer/more of it will still be in the plant. That is ALL THERE IS TO KNOW unless you want to look up more information about its safety (which no one really actually seems to do any research on). So please, please stop bickering about brands when I am doing hours and hours of research to forward our collective knowledge and people come on and fill up whole pages of space to argue about nothing.


Sorry to post something that is not useful to read - hopefully it will make this thread more useful and pragmatic in the long run. Please be mindful of what you are sharing with the world and forcing desperate fellow growers to read when they are starving for solid knowledge.

Thank you!

Agreed. That's what I've been saying: They all work. They are all the same.
By the way, it's "RG", not "HG"