Fungus gnats or WINGED ROOT APHIDS???

[ItsGrowTime]

This may be the most important thread Ive ever read on IC!

I think you guys just nailed the reason I *always* get spotting and yellowing and leaf death starting mid flower through end of crop. My yields are still good and so is the bud quality but it's driven me NUTS trying to figure out what's causing it all this time. Then this last crop I noticed a lot of dark grey flying bugs with little whitish feathery antennae around the room. After looking up phylloxera on wiki, yep that's the fuckers! One plant ended up dying at the end of the crop (wilted down from suddenly no water) and after pulling the plant theres little worms on the roots that have stripped the protective layer from the root leading to plant death.

The life cycle of this insect coincides with the leaf damage perfectly and explains why it always seems to start right around day 25 of flower like clockwork. I too have beaten myself up trying to figure out if I was doing something wrong with my nutes or ph but I use a simple nute regimen (Floranova...doesnt get much easier than that). I too also have a slightly exposed grow room and they probably get in that way from fan suction in the room.

Hot damn boys! I think you nailed it and MUCH appreciation and rep+. I just started out thinking fungus gnats but that's not what they are. Time to work on preventing these bastards in the future. I think Im going to try a combination of Bayer Tree and Shrub (Imid) and Gnatrol for starters. Next crop clones are vegging right now and will go into the flower room in less than a week. Im going to fix this once and for all.

(eta: Nice sig bergerbuddy...you thief lol)

 

[FoCo(No.Co)]

This may be the most important thread Ive ever read on IC!

Seriously spleebale, you have saved my ass big time.


A)How bad was your infestation and what effects have you observed in your plants/grow?
I have had these guys for three cycles, but upgrades prior to the current cycle have taken average rh from <20% to 40% or so and I have seen a significant jump in population. Two or three "fliers" stuck to the buds have become dozens. I'm seeing a lot more crawlies on the leaves and containers as well.

The symptoms were very pronounced, and the infestation actually caused half my strains to hermie right after being moved to the flower room. That was the most disturbing symptom for me, and it is what triggered me finding this thread(which is honestly the best resource I have found regarding this god forbidden plague).

EARLY SYMPTOM(VEG)
-Slight curling of some new leafy growth.
-Leaves turn from healthy green and glossy to a more dull green.
-Leaves may have tiny red or white specs or larger rusty spots on the leaf margins.

LATE SYMPTOMS(USUALLY AROUND DAY 25 FLOWER)
-Some larger fan leaves may develop rusty/off color or just plain sick looking patches and twist or curl and die.
-Bottom most fan leaves start turning yellow-ish usually fading to the veins like a mag deficiency.
-Yellowing works its way up the plant like a nitrogen deficiency.


FINAL SYMPTOMS
-Plants look ready early
-Bud quality, size, maturity are lacking.
-Most heavily infested plants have used up all the green from almost everywhere on the leaves by harvest, even without a flush.

B)Have you grown the same way before with success or with the same problems? Have you grown a different way before with success or the same problems?
When I was working with a less humid room(15%rh), I was getting okay harvests of respectable quality, but the plants really prefer 40%rh to 15%rh so I tweaked my room... well the aphids went nuts; there are fliers stuck to buds, crawlers all over the leaves, and I assume plenty of larvae suckling on the roots.

These parasites have most certainly been effecting pretty much everything about the final product. However, it seems like they prefer some strains to others for some reason... or maybe some strains are more resistant to the pathogens that are tryin to infect the open aphid bites. Since I was running multiple strains, I was still getting some real nice quality buds from the plants the aphids decided they didn't like.

C)Have you treated them before (if so, how and what were your results/conclusions)
I just treated them like a week ago after finding this thread. After a complete foliar spray and root drench with Spinosad, I am confident that Spinosad works to reduce numbers on the leaves, roots, and in the air... I plan on combining the Spinosad with Botanigard ES. Basically my plan is to make my containers a real hostile place for an insect to live; deadly fungus on the prowl in the coco, Spinosad clinging to the roots ready to poison any biters. God I hope this works...

EDIT: SPINOSAD IS NOT EFFECTIVE FOR APHIDS: I DO NOT RECOMMEND A SPINOSAD ROOT DRENCH.

D)What type of medium/nutrients and what type of setup (hand water, ebb/flow etc)

Canna Coco
SoulSynthetic + Earthjuice nutrients
Handwatered

 

[humble1]

spinosad doesn't work on suckers, and all aphids are suckers.

fail-proof way to get rid of them is to dunk whole soil/media container in a mix w/pyrethrins and an effective wetting agent. Every container. Then repeat in around 4 days to break the breeding cycle. Then wait a week for the potential dormant eggs and repeat. Then repeat again in 4 days. That should do it. Major PITA, but it works. Nowadays I just dose my moms and babies w/ Merit.

 

[FoCo(No.Co)]

spinosad doesn't work on suckers, and all aphids are suckers.

I am absolutely certain that there are fewer leaf crawlies on my plants a week after a Spinosad spray. They were everywhere and now they are hard to find. I've also been letting my coco get real dry between waterings, but I doubt that had much of an impact on the leaf crawlers?

fail-proof way to get rid of them is to dunk whole soil/media container in a mix w/pyrethrins and an effective wetting agent. Every container. Then repeat in around 4 days to break the breeding cycle. Then wait a week for the potential dormant eggs and repeat. Then repeat again in 4 days. That should do it. Major PITA, but it works. Nowadays I just dose my moms and babies w/ Merit.

Is there a pyrethrin product meant for garden use? Or do you just use the stuff thats meant for dogs? My one part nutrient contains Yucca extract, and I've got a bloom booster that is mostly yucca, but I can only use 12.5ml/g and 5ml/g respectively is that going to be enough "wetting agent" if I just mix that up with it?

 

[CovertCrops]

Carnage

Carnage

Great info here gang. I have had them for the past 2 weeks, punks came in on a clone. No damage to plants yet but there numbers were increasing until....

I hung up a Hotshots no pest strip 2 days ago, they are dead. No more fliers and even the crawling aphids are dead. I had to vacum the bodies off of the plastic that covers my tables this morning. There wasn't a single insect flying in that room today vs. yesterday when wave after wave of winged aphid would ascend to the light. I will report back if they re-emerge. Good luck everyone, these bugs suck.

EDIT: Does not work on the ones in the pots, but does keep them from spreading to other plants. I am using Imid to get the ones in the root zone

 

[humble1]

I am absolutely certain that there are fewer leaf crawlies on my plants a week after a Spinosad spray.

Both the act of spraying and the spray itself may have slowed down your aphids, but it was not the spinosad component. Spinosad has to be ingested to be effective, and aphids insert their suckers straight through into the leaf or stem.

Is there a pyrethrin product meant for garden use?

I used to buy Bug Buster-O but it's no longer on the shelves in CA or OR. It's been replaced by a product called "Pyreth-It" that NGW distributes. Check your hydro shop or order online.
As far as the yucca goes IDK about yucca as an effective foliar wetting agent. Also, the two things you mentioned have food in them which is a no-no for foliar apps w/ pesticides. Use a drop/gallon Palmolive soap if you don't have anything else. I use wet betty or penetrator.

 

[smokesalot420]

From the research I did I learned that these bastards get winged form only when the infestation of one area is too great. They grow wings so they can "spread out" a bit and infest other areas so once you have the winged one your best bet is to clone or you will be dealing with them for a long time.

I had a bad infestation of these last spring and had to clone everything and start over.... Unfortunately I live in Cali and have seen these things in my yard! I guess wine country has it's pro's and con's....

BTW, I also tried Zero Tolerance (first as a foliar then as a root drench per the companies directions) which didn't do much but piss my plants off more.

 

[smokesalot420]

Another identifying feature of these things are that they have cornicles (2 raised antennae looking things) on their backs. Use a 30x or greater scope or loop for you to see if they are definately aphids.

 

[GeorgeSmiley]

Great info here gang. I have had them for the past 2 weeks, punks came in on a clone. No damage to plants yet but there numbers were increasing until....

I hung up a Hotshots no pest strip 2 days ago, they are dead. No more fliers and even the crawling aphids are dead. I had to vacum the bodies off of the plastic that covers my tables this morning. There wasn't a single insect flying in that room today vs. yesterday when wave after wave of winged aphid would ascend to the light. I will report back if they re-emerge. Good luck everyone, these bugs suck.

No pest strips seem to kill the fliers but I took it out and then they started showing up on the yellow sticky traps.... I haven't managed to break thgeir life cycle yet but in 2 days I will hit ti again with pyrethrin and azamaz..... along with bt for the gnats.

 

[Matanuskan Flo]

geeeez. i was happier when i thought i had gnats.....can't imagine i ever thought id see myself type that. greeeeat job OP. im sure you're going to save many a garden with this thread. it should be stickied. + rep

 

[FoCo(No.Co)]

As far as the yucca goes IDK about yucca as an effective foliar wetting agent. Also, the two things you mentioned have food in them which is a no-no for foliar apps w/ pesticides. Use a drop/gallon Palmolive soap if you don't have anything else. I use wet betty or penetrator.

The leaf dwellers dont seem to be too hard to get rid of, its the soil dwellers I am having promblems with. How come I cant just put the pyrethins in my regular nutrient mixture?

 

[humble1]

you can put the pyrethrins in your nute mix, but unless you're doing ebb'n'flow with the flow equal to the height of your soil/medium line the aphids will just crawl up to the unaffected area and hang out there. Dunking your whole root mass is the only way for the pyrethrins to be completely effective. IDK why it's more effective without food in the mix; just what I noticed from trial and error.

 

[FoCo(No.Co)]

you can put the pyrethrins in your nute mix, but unless you're doing ebb'n'flow with the flow equal to the height of your soil/medium line the aphids will just crawl up to the unaffected area and hang out there. Dunking your whole root mass is the only way for the pyrethrins to be completely effective. IDK why it's more effective without food in the mix; just what I noticed from trial and error.

Ok so the only thing that my shop had in stock was Monterey "Take Down" spray, which is .01% Pyrethrins, 1.0% Canola Oil, 98.99% Inert Ingredients.

EDIT: MONTEREY TAKE DOWN IS NOT EFFECTIVE AND NOT RECOMMENDED.

This stuff was not intented for use as a drench, but I'm going to use it anyway... Do you know what kind of concentration I should use? Or more appropriately, do you know the concentration of the BugBusterO that you were using and how many ml/gallon you used? Thank you for your input by the way, it is much appreciated.

 

[humble1]

You want Pyreth-It. If your store doesn't have it and won't order it (although it is carried by the major distributors) then you should order it online.

 

[FoCo(No.Co)]

You want Pyreth-It. If your store doesn't have it and won't order it (although it is carried by the major distributors) then you should order it online.

Unfortunately I cannot afford to wait for my shop to order it and I dont have a debit card to order stuff online.

So I am going to go ahead and try the Monterey .01% at a few different concentrations on just a few plants... I will be back in several days with a report.

EDIT: I REPORT THAT IT DOESNT WORK.

 

[milehighmedical]

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[humble1]

At least I have some gnatrol sitting around, I didn't want to use it in fear of bothering the girls.

gnatrol isn't for aphids. it's for gnats. it's specific strain of Bt.
you're just spinning your wheels trying to use it on root aphids.

 

[Norkali]

You want Pyreth-It. If your store doesn't have it and won't order it (although it is carried by the major distributors) then you should order it online.

Any suggestions? Google doesn't show much for CA, NGW says no shipping to CA either.

 

[humble1]

There are other generic pyrethrins to be had in high doses. Try sunshine gardens ebay store and rosemania online. you should be able to find something. if not, call around to a bunch of stores and find out who has some leftovers on the shelves. the stuff doesn't really go bad unless you cook it.
btw if you aren't afraid of real poison and don't need it in bloom atm, merit is the way to go imho. imidiclaprod is the active ingredient in that one, and yes it is systemic. if you don't want to buy a whole bottle you can pm me for a store in the bay area that will break you off just a little bit for the right price.

 

[milehighmedical]

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