Fungus gnats or WINGED ROOT APHIDS???

[Leonard NeemOil]

Mcmawg, that red-assed bastard is just like the ones I have. Somebody else (HighBreed) posted a picture of the red butt version earlier in this thread. http://www.icmag.com/ic/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=788690


It was also the subject of this older thread: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:EopDjv6wZ1kJ:www.icmag.com/ic//showthread.php%3Ft%3D114458+aphid+%22red+butt%22&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

I was spacing out my plants and found an infestation of 6 legged round bugs w/o wings. They range in color and size based on their maturity. Some are tiny yellow-amber colored and some have matured to a dark grey round bug with a red butt. These are not mites or thrips. My guess is root aphids. They are only in the root zone and seem to be sucking on the root tips. I squashed as many as I could without damaging the rhisosphere under each cube. Does anyone have any pics and/or solutions? If I had a real camera n comp I would post up pics but I don't.

 

[mcmawg]

Thanks, dudes!

Eehh, well...toss up as to chuck it and re-start; will confer w/me grow bud and figure it out.
Makes sense to scrap the nasty looking two or three...maybe all, then clean the sheeeeee-ite outa the room before rolling again.

I'll have more time in the room Fri.
Once I get back in, I'll scour the space for pictorial evidence we can tack on to the 'most wanted' list.
There ARE flyers in there (check the top of your light...it ain't dust, it's crispy carcasses!).
I'll let y'allz know how the 150 ml of Bayer's juice did.


I DID find that had I been looking for these critters, I would have found them in the first WEEK!
I've never been a gardener of any sort, so this is a heftily NASTY new one on me!
The Infirmiry is one of the forum spots I didn't look at well enough from the get go.
At least I now know that there ARE pests that can have me rolling snake eyes.
Took me going through my pics to spot one; DRAT!! Could've taken care of biz a long time back.

What I figured out on the pics is they're best taken with a white/off white background so the bug's true colors can be determined.
What looks black from a distance takes on a different hue in a pic that's 200 X blown up.

 

[spleebale]

Then, unless there is a better idea, I suggest we refer to these beasts as "red-assed aphids" or "red-asses." - Just seems to make sense (trying to stick to names that characterize their physical appearance).

So we have at least FIVE types in discussion at present with very little information on the differences in control-ability and resistance to various chems. All we know is that MOST if not ALL seem to be controlled well with imid, and that pyrethrum and azadirachtin (Azatrol etc) seem to work reasonably well on some (despite some harm to plant health) but almost not at all on others. Acephate was supposed to be 100% control on the one official experiment we have on RAs, yet bali_man reports that it did not wipe out the population he was most recently dealing with unless it was not an effective application (soaked in everywhere, allowed to absorb sufficiently) then it seems even acephate is not a reliable across-the-board killer.

Here is what I know, regarding "crabs":

-Bayer Complete Insect Killer at 40-50 mL/gal wipes them out - seems to kill on contact and then control for a while after.

-Either Bt (Thuricide, Gnatrol, Vectobac) or nematodes or the combination of the two was effective ALONE (with no chems) at controlling a heavy infestation. Thuricide was used at 20 mL/gal and two applications of predatory nematodes were used (Steinernematid and Herterorhabditatid species) - comes in a plastic pouch in the fridge at the grow shop - light-blue tag that says "One Million Live Predatory Nematodes." - has a blue sponge inside with a droplet of brown nematode goop on it. First application was in late VEG and I used an old packet that had been sitting in my fridge for months - fliers still abounded. Next application was a new packet given in early bloom. I mixed the whole sponge into a gallon of water, as it says to, and then added half of that to my 5-gal of prepared water and watered with it immediately (30 2-gal pots).

I did not notice an immediate reduction of fliers after either the Bt application nor the nematode application, but after a week or two there was a near complete drop off, even though I stopped applying both the Bt and the nematodes, and plants bloomed quite healthy without serious deficiency issues.

-Also: after killing, roots need to be repaired (since RAs secrete a toxin that prevents them from healing or growing) - H2O2 and Hygrozyme are what I have found to be best. In many systems you may want to consider careful pruning of the roots - anywhere that is brown and dead from a certain point onward can be cut off and the plant will have a much better time growing a new root from the cut than trying to regenerate a large area of root covered in aphid-toxin and infected with fungus. If you are using beneficials (especially in soil) using H2O2 is probably only a good idea if the root zone looks generally unhealthy.

 

[Norkali]

Azatrol, Azatrol, and some more Azatrol is what saved my ass; that and immediately tossing any plants (plant, dirt, pot and all) that had crawlies into a trash bag and then bringing that bag immediately off-site. Shit, also 7-8 yellow and blue sticky traps on the pot surface facing up....and Diatomaceous earth around suspected infestations.

I still have the Merit 75 in the shipping bag that it arrived in - never had to bust it open - waste of money but I wasn't playing. This bug requires discipline to eradicate.

I am happy to say that I am still aphid/crawlie free as of today....but I am not convinced yet. I will be happy when I don't see any crawlies for 3-4 months or so; good luck to all.

 

[Greenmopho]

A better solution for powder mildew IMHO is the 'Serenade' anti-fungal product, it has shown total elimination of an powdery mildew infection that I have been battling. WIth the Serenade product I have had the best results of any product tried and that includes Potassium Bicarbonate which is prohibitively expensive and in my case a moderate control at best.

Serenade is listed on the OMRI so is an organic solution as well. I used several jars of powdered Potassium Carbonate and at $12.00 a jar, I was going broke on a control that was not eliminating my problem. One ready to spray bottle of Serenade set me back $7.00 and I still have 90% of the bottle left after eradicating the mildew.

The only draw back to the Serenade product is that it smells like sweaty feet. The smell at first is terrible but dissipates after a few days.

Serenade does work great, but is not recommended for blooming plants, and is better for serious control issues when you can't keep humidity in check. The first step of getting rid of Powdery Mildew is get your humidity below 50% at all times!!! If you are not doing that, you are just fighting an uphill battle. Get your RH to about 40-45%, then your PM treatment, which ever you choose, will work much better.

Also, don't use Seranade at the recommended dose on the bottle, I would go to about 1/2 strength. I've totally burned my plants with Seranade. Potassium Bicarbonate can be expensive, but diluted milk is super cheap and works just the same. I keep a thing of Potassium Bicarbonate around (Green Cure brand), but its my 2nd line of defense, my first being diluted milk at 1/9th with water. Also, if you live in a Western State, and you have low humidity, you can just spray your plants with tap water. The tap water in Northern California comes out between 8.0-8.4 pH, which inhibits powdery mildew.

Sorry for the thread hijack on PM, now get back to your aphids....good luck. I've been through tough shit, and have had a trifecta of infestations. Aphids weakened my roots, so I got root rot, which weakened the plant on the whole, and left me susceptible to powdery mildew....lets just say that we had a lot of bubble hash that month...

 

[lrj812]

My Root Aphid (RA) experience

My Root Aphid (RA) experience

I received clones 2/25 from a reputable co-op. My medium was rockwool croutons/hydroton mix, ebb & flow with GH nutrients. I noticed the white wax on hydroton within 2 weeks but thought it was a salty buildup of nutrients (inexperience). Leaves started showing nut. deficiency brown spots, green veining on leaves etc. Then came the ph/nutrient chasing, calibrating meters etc. I'm thankful about this thread for highlighting the issue. By the time the RA (tanks) started floating in my tray my plants were very unhappy and so was I. I called the grower and he was a little skeptical but to his credit came by and then confirmed my diagnosis. A RA infestation big time. It came within the clones.


Treatment- I used Bayer Tree & Shrub (Imid) with 1T per gallon, top fed to only soak the medium with no runoff. Top fed nut. only for several days being careful not to see any runoff and wash out Imid.
After trying to revive the garden, all plants were pulled 3/23, start over. I was able to confirm by examining all root balls of pulled plants that no RA was moving. Thousands of dead RA in RWool. Roots were terrible looking. The Imid exterminated RA, but too late to save the plants.

Grower supplied new plants with RA attached. His experience with RA was not horrific more of a nuisance. He grows in soil and soil-less mix,top feeds by hand and drip and also has a pest management regimen. My rockwool crouton/hydroton provided a perfect environment for RA which I think allowed an explosion of RA's. There was no natural or man-made defense. Based on experienced growers comments indoor growing provides the best environments for pests.

Against conventional wisdom seen on this thread I accepted the new plants and have taken an attitude that all plants have RA or some other problem if you buy from a co-op or friend or whoever. I am going to manage from get go that I have a pest problem before the explosion which will ruin your garden. Nor Cal has RA and it's not easy, if not impossible to stop an epidemic from running its course. My opinion, don't trust anyone that their plant is free of any pest or disease. Treat it like it does, be diligent. Based on all the posts it seems like big operations in Norcal have RA as well as PM etc. They all have bugs, now what.

3/24 new clones placed in RW 6x6 cube. I confirmed some RA in new clones but numbers were maybe 10 per clone or none. I killed all I could see manually. I immediately treated clones with Bayer 1tsp-1G top fed as above. Grower provided me with Botanigard which I treated the next day 1tsp per gallon top fed. I will again treat in 3-5 days with Botanigard. This is what he is using currently to try & rid his operation of RA. Cubes will not provide all the nooks and crannies for RA and I hope the systemic Imid and Botanigard will manage or rid me of the problem. I will watch and be diligent with more stuff ready to battle this pest. My malathion spray bottle at the ready. Grower also on board to see what works and working with me to have a successful grow.
Big farming operations in the food growing world are constantly managing pests and adapting their techniques to deal with new and constant threats. I read grape/wine growers in norcal found a vine resistant to RA and grafted to it. They couldn't eradicate the bug. Growers/breeders we could use a plant resistant to RA.

I will continue to post if anyone interested on this latest round.

 

[GeorgeSmiley]

I really appreciate you dropping by and posting this.... very helpful first post and welcome to the site

I can say that my experience has paralleled yours in many ways especially the last.

Nor cal, up Oregon and Wash, the RA's are here and to stay,. I've been battling this for several weeks and get it to where it looks like no bugs then find a single flier. Then I get some clones from a good grower and they are healthy but have the gnat/RA dual infest but they look happy. I treat with Imid and pyryth and azamax and now they don't look so hot. Tip yellowing and not drinking. Treatment seemed worse than the infestation.

So integrated pest management is going to be a must up the west coast unless you're only ever going to grow a few seeds here and there. With the candy store of elite cuttings on the west coast it's not likely most of us will stop growing cuts because of RA's.... no fuckin way (have you people smoked headband?) I'd smoke that out of a root aphids ass.

Bust seriously, I have gotten clones from 10 excellent growers and they came with pests. I don't know if a few are in denial or what. Everyone else is really matter of fact no big deal about it

That isn't in this thread. "We fight em we don't ever completely win" I was told. It's grapes the whole way up and down and around the 45th and it isn't going away.

I'm thinking the h2o2 to wash bad roots might be the piece of the pie that I'm missing. Or the hygrozyme or whatever.

How do you fight a pest with this friggen life cycle?

I just hope we don't contribute to making the west coast super root aphid


smiley

I received clones 2/25 from a reputable co-op. My medium was rockwool croutons/hydroton mix, ebb & flow with GH nutrients. I noticed the white wax on hydroton within 2 weeks but thought it was a salty buildup of nutrients (inexperience). Leaves started showing nut. deficiency brown spots, green veining on leaves etc. Then came the ph/nutrient chasing, calibrating meters etc. I'm thankful about this thread for highlighting the issue. By the time the RA (tanks) started floating in my tray my plants were very unhappy and so was I. I called the grower and he was a little skeptical but to his credit came by and then confirmed my diagnosis. A RA infestation big time. It came within the clones.


Treatment- I used Bayer Tree & Shrub (Imid) with 1T per gallon, top fed to only soak the medium with no runoff. Top fed nut. only for several days being careful not to see any runoff and wash out Imid.
After trying to revive the garden, all plants were pulled 3/23, start over. I was able to confirm by examining all root balls of pulled plants that no RA was moving. Thousands of dead RA in RWool. Roots were terrible looking. The Imid exterminated RA, but too late to save the plants.

Grower supplied new plants with RA attached. His experience with RA was not horrific more of a nuisance. He grows in soil and soil-less mix,top feeds by hand and drip and also has a pest management regimen. My rockwool crouton/hydroton provided a perfect environment for RA which I think allowed an explosion of RA's. There was no natural or man-made defense. Based on experienced growers comments indoor growing provides the best environments for pests.

Against conventional wisdom seen on this thread I accepted the new plants and have taken an attitude that all plants have RA or some other problem if you buy from a co-op or friend or whoever. I am going to manage from get go that I have a pest problem before the explosion which will ruin your garden. Nor Cal has RA and it's not easy, if not impossible to stop an epidemic from running its course. My opinion, don't trust anyone that their plant is free of any pest or disease. Treat it like it does, be diligent. Based on all the posts it seems like big operations in Norcal have RA as well as PM etc. They all have bugs, now what.

3/24 new clones placed in RW 6x6 cube. I confirmed some RA in new clones but numbers were maybe 10 per clone or none. I killed all I could see manually. I immediately treated clones with Bayer 1tsp-1G top fed as above. Grower provided me with Botanigard which I treated the next day 1tsp per gallon top fed. I will again treat in 3-5 days with Botanigard. This is what he is using currently to try & rid his operation of RA. Cubes will not provide all the nooks and crannies for RA and I hope the systemic Imid and Botanigard will manage or rid me of the problem. I will watch and be diligent with more stuff ready to battle this pest. My malathion spray bottle at the ready. Grower also on board to see what works and working with me to have a successful grow.
Big farming operations in the food growing world are constantly managing pests and adapting their techniques to deal with new and constant threats. I read grape/wine growers in norcal found a vine resistant to RA and grafted to it. They couldn't eradicate the bug. Growers/breeders we could use a plant resistant to RA.

I will continue to post if anyone interested on this latest round.

 

[Green&Gold]

OK guys. I admit defeat. Today I saw another flier!

I am not going to go nuclear on them. My plants are sorry girls at the moment, the cure seems to have caused as much damage as the pests. So I'm probably going to chop it all down this weekend, make a few cutting and put em in the fridge and clean everything.

Lucky for me I am connected to a lot of generous people growing elite strains, so I can get new and better genetics for free if I dare. But I'm worried about more/other pests...

So now the important questions: How to clean-up from these pests so not to reinfect the new garden. H3O? Dilute Bleach? Something else? CO2 or chemical foggers aren't appropriate.

Also in the future I want to assume that everything that comes into my place may be contaminated. So I need to build some kind of isolation chamber for new plants. And figure out a plan for how to deal with the quarantined plants and when to introduce them to the garden.

Also looking for some example of other peoples prophylactic pest management strategies/ procedures.

Namaste

 

[Centrum]

Could these be eggs ?

I can see the flying bugs here and there.
But i havent really seen anything crawling.
But i have found this yellow egg like stuff in my pots.


I started feeding them the bayer insect stuff everyone recomended and just one day difference the leafs are pointing up, they havent done this in a long long time.


I havent fed the flowering plants, just the clones and veg and moms.
once the flowering plants are done i will continually feed every 2 weeks until i see the issues go away.

 

[smokesalot420]

I just hope we don't contribute to making the west coast super root aphid

I think it will be important to do something like lrj812 said and rotate treatments so we do not let these things build up immunities to what little works with them. I have heard great things about Botanigard and am glad he is using it (I would like to hear if it's as effective as they say) and hope to hear back from him in the future to see if it worked out.

My treatment varies, but I'm now using Neem or Azamax/Azatrol, Bayer Fruit and Veggie (only in veg), Pyrethrum Bombs, and plan on working Botanigard in the rotation when I get some. I also rotate Gnatrol in there (for fungus gnats) and floramite (in veg).

The importance of this cannot be understated! Take this fictional (but very possible example): Some grower only uses 1 type of treatment like the Imid which wipes out all but a few aphids out..... Well the few aphids that live through this are resistant to the treatment (which is why they live). Grower notices after a few weeks of not having any more aphids that they are back (because they weren't completely irradicated in the first place) and decides to toss his plants. He does not treat the plants or soil that he is tossing and releases these things out anywhere in the PNW (as we seem to have the most of these atm). Keep in mind that the remaining aphids are offspring of the original resistant aphids so they will be more likely to be resistant as well and the population of resistant aphids will increase while the unresistant ones will decrease. A few generations down the road (which we know is very fast for insects) and you have resistant aphids. Because of the complex life cycle of these things they are able to fly to new locations or make the slow march to your garden...... This is the "survival of the fittest" principal at work and we have already created super mites here so let's try and not make super aphids if we already haven't!

 

[lrj812]

I wanted to share information from someone I spoke with who was a technical person at Bioworks who distributes Botanigard? She said that no paper has been written on that products application in hydroponics so she couldn't recommend it. But when I asked her a hypothetical about a containerized plant in soil she said the best way to apply it was by pouring over the rootball and hoping it contacts a root aphid. If it made contact it would work, but it was a contact type of fungus. If no hosts for fungus (RA's) are present than fungus will go away with irrigation etc. Do your best not to overwater and flush it out. She also mentioned she wasn't even aware of root aphids being of any issue until about a month ago. I told her if it worked expect a spike in sales on the west coast. She was located in the southeast.

 

[sneakinman13]

http://www.hardwareandtools.com/32Oz-Conc-Insec-Control-701520A-by-Bayer-Crop-Science-u119448.html

sorry but no one answered my question... is this product the stuff^^^^^^???

thanks

 

[smokesalot420]

Yes it is, that's what I'm using

 

[mcmawg]

Yeah, sneakin'; that bottle has .235 % imidacloprid.

 

[ItsGrowTime]

Im at day 30 or so with my current crop and noticed something. The Imid treatment (Bayer Fruit/Veg/Citrus) has made my tobacco mosaic virus become more prominent in my leaves. Before it was a very minor annoyance, only the occasional leaf here and there, but now the leaf deformities caused by the TMV are much more prevalent. I think the systemic Imid is the cause. It's still way better than the root aphids (none observed yet!) but Imid does seem to make underlying issues more noticable.

 

[BigSwifty]

I wanted to share information from someone I spoke with who was a technical person at Bioworks who distributes Botanigard? She said that no paper has been written on that products application in hydroponics so she couldn't recommend it. But when I asked her a hypothetical about a containerized plant in soil she said the best way to apply it was by pouring over the rootball and hoping it contacts a root aphid. If it made contact it would work, but it was a contact type of fungus. If no hosts for fungus (RA's) are present than fungus will go away with irrigation etc. Do your best not to overwater and flush it out. She also mentioned she wasn't even aware of root aphids being of any issue until about a month ago. I told her if it worked expect a spike in sales on the west coast. She was located in the southeast.

Hey, thanks for the feedback bro!

Sounds to me like it'll work and I'm picking some up for next grow. If you drench/dunk your soil with it... it's going to contact them!

 

[GeorgeSmiley]

Hey, thanks for the feedback bro!

Sounds to me like it'll work and I'm picking some up for next grow. If you drench/dunk your soil with it... it's going to contact them!

At the very least a tool, another weapon, piece of the puzzle. The further away we can get from using strong pesticide to control this, the better it will be.

We aren't an entire grape vineyard, ...... most of us just have small indoor gardens so no... you'll never irradiate it but it is entirely possible to get good controls in place to keep infestations down.

Without causing so many questions on the health and safety of these pesticides we use on things we inhale. In your plant is still in your plant and in your plant is in your body.

I guess I don't have a lot of faith in the pesticide companies telling us these things are safe to use on produce etc with harvest windows and such.... and new pesticides get banned all the time. Some have been in tremendous use since the 1930's and have had more than 20 attempts to get it outlawed and now 2010 it's under review again, but still being applied 128,000 lbs of the it a year....... can't trust the labels man.

So I think the bontanigaurd is a great direction to look and I want to grab a bottle as soon as I can afford it.

Just my rant.... ddt used to taste great on produce, shame it got banned


smiley

 

[spleebale]

OK, Thank you everyone for all the helpful posts! I really finally feel as though we are collectively getting somewhere as a community!

Several important things to say so PLEASE READ THIS.

-Please, from NOW ON, identify WHICH aphids you are dealing with every time you provide information about what has or has not worked (basically any time you talk about them, please remind us WHICH aphids you are talking about - PLEASE remember we are dealing with a similar class of creature here but that we have several uniquely different pests!!!

I will re-iterate and refine notes on treatment:

-Pyrethrum and azadirachtin (Azatrol, Azamax)- the natural methods - These substances seem to offer decent control of aphids but are non-systemic, so they only kill what they contact. DO NOT use oil-based pyrethrum products (Bug-Buster O etc) as the oil will coat roots and cause difficulty breathing/absorbing nutrients etc. Pyganic has been reported as the most effective/least harmful pyrthrum product. Azadirachtin is probably a good idea to supplement any regimen with or to use as a secondary control method, as it has many modes of action against bugs and apparently does not develop insect tolerance. Azadirachtin will probably not cut it alone as a control method, however, nor will pyrthrum. If you are going to avoid systemics altogether, I would use BOTH of these substances and re-apply often (particularly when you first start using them - every other day or every third day is a good idea at first and then at least once a week after that). I would also use at least one other control method (Spectracide Traizicide, insecticidal soap, nematodes) because when you are not using a systemic you have to really bombard the root zone to make sure every single bug gets hit with poison soon after it hatches.

-Start as early as you can with a systemic (imid). Go as HIGH with the dosing as you are willing to on the initial dose. I STRONGLY recommend Bayer Complete Insect Killer at 30-50 mL/gal - it has B-Cyfluthrin in it as well, which I believe is a contact-killer. I think that this combo of chemicals at high doses, used for a week or less each round is key to not building up RA resistance - I think a higher initial dose and the added contact-killer are important so that you don't get any aphids coming in just a bit of contact with the imid and fleeing the area - all that come in contact die from the B-Cyfluthrin. Then all of their innocent babies will feast on the roots and receive a mega-dose of imid in their infancy, spelling death (or you can do a second Bayer application 3-6 days after the first, to kill all newly hatched aphids or to make sure and reach all nooks and crannies).


Note: applying imid products does seem to shock plant to some extent; if they are healthy they get over it right away, where most people report a positive change in appearance (new growth etc) the very next day. If plants are unhealthy, imid treatment can stress them and cause them to stall (sometimes even induces outbreaks of pathogens, like fungal leaf issues). The most important thing is to be careful with imid in recirculating hydro systems; far less imid is necessary when there will be such repeated contact with roots (5-20 mL C.I.K or 2.5-10 mL T&S). It is also important to run the pesticides for only a short period of time (2-4 hrs should be plenty!) and then change out the res and run the system again. I would personally base the length of time and concentration on how "exposed" the roots will be to the pesticide; DWC/hydrofarm systems probably only need ~30 min exposure with very low doses (since roots will be continually soaked in the solution). NFT and aero type systems could probably use slightly higher doses and exposure time, and top-feed or ebb/flow probably a bit more/longer still (perhaps 2-4 waterings for such container-hydro or rockwool slab/Hugo cube systems). Using higher levels of pesticides than the system calls for or letting pesticides stay around too long can be a recipe for disaster, as plants do not like to be continually exposed to the imid products (even at low levels) for very long.

-In all container-gardens it is best to apply chems in early stages when plants are in smaller containers - this way you use less chems, the plant will have longer to break them down/flush them out and you will get more complete application (after you transplant into larger containers it takes far more chem-water to get everywhere, and you generally do not want to soak them so heavily with as much medium)

-After 1st imid watering, you WILL need to use something else as a secondary control measure. I would give the first dose of your secondary control 8-12 days after the last imid dose (again, to be sure nothing hatches and decides to crawl out before eating roots) - this initial dose can be foregone if you use tanglefoot to corral aphids to the imid-applied rootzone - then their only option is to eat the forbidden fruit. I would use the secondary control again (or for the first time if aphids were corralled after imid) about 15-18 days after the imid application, regardless of how the plant looks, and continue with secondary application every 4-10 days (shorter periods for lower dosage, in higher temps [root zone above 70 deg] and if using Bt as control) until buds start thickening. Then I would keep vigilant watch for symptoms and back off secondary control (perhaps using nematodes if that is not already your secondary control).

-If you use this method from early in the stage of plant life and you choose an effective secondary control for the type of aphids you have, then you should be able to otherwise grow as normal, besides the above steps (without any nuclear anything). What we need to do as a community is establish WHICH secondary controls work best for which RAs!!!

-If you do not have the luxury of using this method from early on (you are discovering the infestation late in plant growth/when roots are already F*ed) - killing the aphids is not the only hurdle - that is the easy/easier part - your roots are in bad shape and are covered with toxic aphid-spit. Pruning roots is probably necessary (if they are ugly from a certain point onward, PRUNE). Even manually wiping the roots off (if at all possible)/ sliding them between gloved-fingers can help if they are covered in gunk/aphid spit. If you are growing in a medium, the roots are gross and the plants aren't drinking - it will probably be more of an up-hill battle to revive them and will have a lower potential for yield than if you start over. Re-pot plants in new medium, being careful not to over-water, give them lower light (floros if possible) and some good root-tonic or beneficial tea (Voodoo Juice, BMO Super Plant Tonic, Mayan Microzyme, 3D Third Eye). If they do not start looking better in 5-7 days, then they are almost certainly not worth it (I would expect signs of recovery within 48 hrs).

-Before using beneficials, you may want to consider using H2O2 - ESPECIALLY in hydro. Anywhere from 2 mL/gal to 15 mL/gal of 35% H2O2 can be useful, depending on your circumstance. Above 5 mL/gal you can count on it wiping out most beneficials, and above 10 mL/gal it may be harming the roots - but sometimes such higher strengths in short exposure can be useful in eliminating pathogens (the roots will quickly recover from mid damage faster than with root rot).

-Any time root aphid populations have gotten out of hand and roots are known to have been damaged - HYGROZYME is a must (any system). You can try any of the other enzyme products, but I think that Hygrozyme is well known as the best dissolver/decomposer. It is expensive, but your root system is the foundation of your grow.

-It is clear that wet systems are far more prone to these pests than those that dry well, high humidity encourages them, and that the damage done in wet systems tends to be far worse (most likely due to exposed wounds in moist environment). Soil may actually deter these pests, and chemical nutrient fertilizer (non-organic based) may cause more problems and be more detrimental to the plant health, where organics may be easier on the plant and also deter RAs.

-So everything points to soil having an easier time with these pest, however, it seems to be harder to treat a heavy infestation/unhealthy plant in soil than in hydro - this is likely because hydro systems/plants can tolerate heavier watering and wet conditions better than soil plants - when soil plants are shocked they stop drinking and then suffocate, and the need to drench with chems + the chems themselves do not help the plant health. Re-potting into fresh medium (root pruning where applicable) is probably best for any plants that are sitting in soggy medium, not drinking)

-The damage caused by root aphids, the application of chemicals, and plants being heavily watered to apply chems all seem to exacerbate plant-health issues and expose plants to conditions they would otherwise be able to ward off with immunity. It seems that AN Bud Factor X (the 5X concentrated replacement of Scorpion Juice) may be useful for this. It is Salicylic acid + Chitosan - neither of these ingredients are super-rare or pricey, so I wonder if anyone can source them to produce a home-Bud Factor X-brew. (Salicylic acid is in acne treatments - just make sure there is no other harmful stuff). These ingredients are supposed to trigger the plant immune response and help it to boost its own immunity. (Perhaps best used in early stages when RAs are minimal). IN one post on another thread, it was claimed that they tried everything and then finally tried Scorpion Juice at 80 mL/gal (= 16 mL/gal BFX) and it got rid of them - though I did not find anyone else to confirm such success, it is likely that the Scorpion Juice was just treating an infection which resulted from RA infestation.

-Using beneficial additives is probably essential to success when root damage has been done. Using things to "keep clean" like SM90 etc is not going to cut it. Trichoderma may be the speediest and most cost effective way of repopulating the rhizosphere. 3D's "Third Eye" is a canister of Trichoderma hazarium (the good one) that you only use at 1 mL/gal - it is expensive ($60/can) but should last a really long time - also, if you are into home gardening techniques, you can sprinkle a TOUCH of the Third Eye on coffee grounds or other substances that mold likes to grow on and then cultivate your own Trichoderma so the canister can last you for years.

-Most important of all: Do NOT let these buggers break you! Try as best as possible not to be frantic. Be methodical and write down what you do as you go and then take notes the next day/coming days on any responses (in plant health/aphid population etc). Be very mindful when inspecting your ladies - do not get lost in your frustration and worry about whether things are working, whether plants are getting better or whether or not you saw something flying/crawling. Do not over-medicate and get lost in your thoughts when trying to solve such an important issue. Be mindful, present and in the moment, taking in what ever data you are presented with - as subtle as it may be - noting the significant and dismissing the insignificant. Make a plan of action and stick to it, but always be open to modification of your plan. Recognize that any one crop may yield far less than you like, or may even need to be terminated, but that you have the power to succeed and overcome if you are pragmatic and do all the things that you need to do. Do not let the frustration of a failed round carry over into your mentality and mindset on the next round, where you are going to do everything right and not have the same problems.


Good luck, guys! Stay diligent!

 

[GeorgeSmiley]

I look up complete insect turf killer and it says on the label not for produce.

Then searching I find a quote where it is obviously used for it in the ag industry, maybe homeowner traditionally not reliable person to safely spray their garden

http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profile...a-cyhalothrin/lam-cyhalothrin_letter_403.html

Spectracide Triazicide Brand Soil & Turf Insect Killer Granules (0.04% lambda- cyhalothrin) is labeled as an insecticide for outdoor use on lawns, spot treatment for ants and as a barrier band treatment around house foundations. Product labeling bears the statement "For outdoor use around the home only." A typical overall lawn application rate of 2 pounds per 1000 sq.ft. per application is equivalent to 0.035 pounds lambda-cyhalothrin/application. The maximum overall lawn application rate (six applications per year @ 3 pounds per 1000 sq.ft. per application) is equivalent to 0.314 pounds lambda-cyhalothrin/acre/year.

Spectracide Triazicide Brand Soil & Turf Insect Killer Concentrate (0.5% lambda-cyhalothrin) is labeled as an insecticide for outdoor use on lawns, ornamental trees, flowers, shrubs and vegetables. Product labeling bears the statement "For outdoor use around the home only." The ready spray nozzle product lawn application rate of 1 quart product per 16,000 sq.ft. is equivalent to 0.028 pounds lambda-cyhalothrin/acre. A maximum application rate or re-treatment interval is not specified for the lawn use pattern. The vegetable application rate of 1 quart product per 19,200 sq.ft. is equivalent to 0.024 pounds lambda-cyhalothrin/acre. Application to all listed vegetables except corn (five applications per growing season) is limited to a maximum of nine applications which is equivalent to 0.213 pounds lambda-cyhalothrin/acre/growing season.

Lambda-cyhalothrin is a component of products registered in New York State for use as an insecticide in cattle ear tags, for residual pest control in and around buildings and structures, for control of insect pests on ornamentals and turf, for control of insect pests in the commercial greenhouse, shadehouse and nursery environment and as an insecticide on various agricultural crops. In addition, Spectracide Bug Stop Home Insect Killer, a product labeled for domestic indoor use, was registered on February 24, 2003. The proposal to register pesticide products labeled for domestic outdoor use by homeowners represents a major change in labeled (MCL) use pattern for lambda-cyhalothrin

 

[smokesalot420]

Also confirmed mine as the red butts! I have both green and black-bodied red butts! I think they may be the same (hoping) species but the black are larger and more mature?

Spleebale, you mention using h202 to help the roots and this is something a couple local (Nor Cal) hydro stores told me to use but I never tried it as I couldn't find the more concentrated version at the time. I may pick some of this up as it will clean the waxy build-up and supposedly kills the aphids as well. I am unsure but if it doesn't burn the roots it sounds promising. The only thing is that you would have to reapply your bene's as you mentioned earlier.