Fungus gnats or WINGED ROOT APHIDS???

[yerboyblue]

Alright people,

So as I said in last nights post, I have been battling "fungus gnats" for a while, only to now discover they are RAs.

So last night I talked about the chemicals I would be looking at.

Someone said I should use Imidacloprid as they may be gnats, but I'm certain they're not gnats, as months of Vectobac and Nilnat has done nothing to curb them.

So I went down the Acephate path.

I purchased Yates Shield, which is supposed to be used as a spray, but Im using it as a drench, fingers crossed I dont kill my crop! It contains 45g/liter acephate and 8gm/liter myclobutanil. The Myclobutanil is of no use to me, but I couldn't be bothered finding a spray that was just acephate (there is one available in NZ but it is restricted for people with some sort of chemical certification. I researched myclobutanil, and it is a fungucide, it is also used in soil drenches, so it can't be too toxic to roots.

So tonight I started by filling a tub with the mixture, made at recommended spray strength (5 mils per liter), then, too prevent wasting too much chemical, I thoroughly watered all the plants until lots of run off occoured. After this I have placed them, two at a time, in the tub, and will leave them in there for 30-45 minutes per drench.

I HOPE this will kill all the little bastards!

Now...some questions....I hear people on here talking about reintroduction of ferts afterwards. Is there any method to do this? I know you are meant to leave it for a while to let the chemical work its magic, so I intend on leaving them for 2-3 days before starting with ferts again. Is this about right?


Thanks for any and all advice.

I don't know how often you water, but I would use water only 2-3 days after the drench and start introducing ferts slowly at 7 days, alternating between fert and water only feedings. Acephate half life is 6-14 days which corresponds with my negative effects while using it and reintroducing ferts soon after application.
Let me put it this way, would you rather be under fertilized for a week or two or potentially have a reaction from the ferts that causes death.
There really only seems to be 3 decently documented examples of Acephate use in this thread so far. 2 were organic growers with good results, and me using synthetics with terrible results.

 

[hydrodreams]

[...]There really only seems to be 3 decently documented examples of Acephate use in this thread so far. 2 were organic growers with good results, and me using synthetics with terrible results.

Even if I belive Eclipse is trustworthy, I also believe it would be more confirmative if there are a few more people who can share their experience on the "riptide+orthene 30min dunk"....

 

[yerboyblue]

Even if I belive Eclipse is trustworthy, I also believe it would be more confirmative if there are a few more people who can share their experience on the "riptide+orthene 30min dunk"....

Agreed, I believe Eclipse had a positive experience but I also believe he has different growing methods, so what worked for him basically set me back big time. The only time I had positive results with Orthene was with a mild dose at 3/4 oz for 30 gallons. This was at week 4 or so of flower. I didn't reintroduce ferts for 7 days. I also introduced Botaniguard and nematodes after as well. I would hardly call it saving the crop but keep it alive long enough for buds to mature nice and quality. Yields were terrible still.
Another room I tried doing another 3/4 oz app a week after the first one. Fried them too. I actually got better bud and yields in one room just letting the RA's do whatever they want compared to high doses of Orthene. I can definitely say that it was the Orthene causing the problems. I had 3 rooms side by side.
First crop, 2 rooms with one treatment of 3/4 oz of Orthene, ferts reintroduced 6-7 days later, I had minor minor leaf tip burn, like a slight overfert, but the crops pulled through, but terrible yields. Most RA damage was already done. 3rd room, 3/4 oz treatment, then another 3/4 oz treatment a week later. I had severe burn.
Second crop, 2 rooms with one treatment at 3 oz for 30 gallons. Those rooms pretty much died. The 3rd room I only treated with some Botaniguard. There were tons more RA's but I didn't have any plant fry, and got decent bud. Still shit yield, but not as bad as the treated rooms.
So I just want to say to be careful with this stuff. Orthene basically has statements from Eclipse and from NPKali (I believe) way back basically to the same effect as Eclipse, and then me. If you are unsure about the product but want to try it, I would suggest to not bet the farm on it until you have tested it and waited 10-14 days to see the effect it has on your plants with your particular regimin.
I really hope everyone else that is trying Orthene has a different experience from me and has it help with their problem. It was some major and detrimental trial and error in my experience. I am looking forward to see what K Kiwi's results are.

 

[EclipseFour20]

Yerboy's disaster with this procedure is the only incident I am aware of--but I do not converse with everyone; I am aware of dozens of successful eradication of RAs using this Orthene + Riptide.

I agree 100% with the above....information/feedback from others is important and maybe a new thread should be setup just for that--and ALWAYS test a few plants before trying a new strategy.

As to watering afterwards--let the container dryout (not to the point of plant wilt) but it takes about 3-5 days--for the microbial breakdown of Orthene--so first feeding could be for them: molasses and water--or rebuilding the minerals of your soil. Introducing any zyme products and heavy ferts for the first feeding after the dunk--have received mixed results. No deaths--just lockup.

If the soil's PH is at or below 6--I have seen "fussy pussy" plants slowly recover, but not rollover and die. Perhaps that is one thing we should add to the equation, insure PH is over 6 before treating.

Just brainstorming--do not want to see what happened to Yerboy to be repeated.

 

[hydrodreams]

Straight question: Is it possible to have fungus gnats in very limited numbers like fliers of root aphids when growing on soil?

 

[medicalmj]

Med, since there are probably a hundred or so posts in this particular thread that parrots your thought on imidacloprid...for the few of us that find imidacloprid either ineffective or excessive in the "half-life" department, what alternatives would you recommend if repeated doses of imidacloprid did not work for you?

However, I submit one correction about flyers--the life cycle of Root Aphids is not dependent on the life cycle of the plant, so it is normal to see mature/morphed RAs develop wings around healthy young plants; since RA require both moist organic material and plant tissue--including sucking on roots--for their food.

The strategy the vineyards implemented to win their phylloxera battle (aka root aphid) was novel and "pesticide-less"--a "phylloxera resistant" root stalk was developed and to grow ALL grapes.

As to alternatives to Imid, your astute observation of resistant root stock is well received. I have argued (but who's listening) that breeders should stop chasing the next fad in taste/smell and focus on making well rounded strains. My case is made that there should be several agreed upon styles by some international group. Kinda like beer styles. Pale ale, stout, porter, etc.. Then breeders can make that style the best from short flower times, resistance, potency, etc.

Have you tried pyrethrum? I would only use a product w only pyrthrum like Evergreen. Others have crap that make it a lousy choice for a drench. Azadarachtin will help a little, but I am pretty sure you'd need another product along with Aza. So if I we're to not use imid I'd alternate b/w aza and pyrethrum.

 

[Kronikal_kiwi]

Thanks for the help everyone!

I will make sure to leave them for 3-5 days until fully dry before watering, and slowly introducing ferts again.
The medium is coco so I hope I dont get drama's with fert defficiencies.

 

[EclipseFour20]

Kron--think of it this way, bacteria in the right condition will produce an abundant amount of NPK. And since there is microbial activity in the soil as the Acephate degrades, some natural NPK will be created near the rootzone. So you might not have any fert deficiency....or less than anticipated.

And less is best, "if I fert a little today--I can always add more tomorrow, but if I add too much today--I can not take it away it tomorrow."

 

[yerboyblue]

Have you tried pyrethrum? I would only use a product w only pyrthrum like Evergreen. Others have crap that make it a lousy choice for a drench. Azadarachtin will help a little, but I am pretty sure you'd need another product along with Aza. So if I we're to not use imid I'd alternate b/w aza and pyrethrum.

Google riptide, which Eclipse has been saying to use the whole time.

 

[Kronikal_kiwi]

Cheers Eclipse!

I checked this morning, and there are still lots of flyers.
Is Acephate supposed to kill the flyers, or just the larvae/crawler stages?
I suspect I will have to re drench them in a week, this time with the imidacloprid.
To be honest, none of the plants seem particularly harmed, despite the very high number of flyers in there (I'd estimate a hundred plus, if I disturbed the root zone on all 8 plants).

 

[EclipseFour20]

Riptide (pyrethin + pbo) seems to knock down flyers...but, once the flyers die off, your RA population should be rather tiny (acephate).

 

[RockyMountainHi]

Kron--think of it this way, bacteria in the right condition will produce an abundant amount of NPK. And since there is microbial activity in the soil as the Acephate degrades, some natural NPK will be created near the rootzone. So you might not have any fert deficiency....or less than anticipated.

And less is best, "if I fert a little today--I can always add more tomorrow, but if I add too much today--I can not take it away it tomorrow."

True dat.

Remember - the plant had had a parasite eating the roots. And those parasites carry a slew of other bacteria and nasty stuf that isn't helping the plant.

Also,, Flyiers only develop as a population approaches saturation. The flyiers are pregnant with pregnant babies,, so only a few flyiers is a good indication of a really bad infection.

I've read more than one article that says to reduce lighting, feed lightly and water somewhat sparingly during recovery.

If you have a bad infestation, some plants will probaly not survive.

Sometimes I can keep the plants happy until flowering is induced and abour 3 or 4 weeks in, the plant slows root development to grow flowers - then the bugs can do the greatest damage in the shortest period of time.


And about the Cap's Packs - I believe I said Earthworm casting tea seems to work as well, maybe better and costs a but load less.

I advocate earthworm casting tea - even on Rockwool cubes. Some have looked at me like that was never suppose to be done, but the garden says yes.

 

[yerboyblue]

Cheers Eclipse!

I checked this morning, and there are still lots of flyers.
Is Acephate supposed to kill the flyers, or just the larvae/crawler stages?
I suspect I will have to re drench them in a week, this time with the imidacloprid.
To be honest, none of the plants seem particularly harmed, despite the very high number of flyers in there (I'd estimate a hundred plus, if I disturbed the root zone on all 8 plants).

You got to get sticky traps at the very least to catch flyers, I would use Hot Shot No Pest strips and kill those suckers. Force them into the ground to get poisoned too. My friends string several sticky strips around the base of the plant to catch fliers.

 

[Granger2]

http://www.bioworksinc.com/products/shared/root-aphid-control-article.pdf [U.MD Cooperative Extension Service]

First part of this article sings the praises of both Orthene and Insecticidal Soap. In my experience a 30 minute dunk/soak with Insecticidal Soap, 2.5 oz/gal does the job on those containers treated. Doesn't mean they won't get re-infested, but unlike any thing else, Soap removes the waxy balls [look like perlite] deposited on the roots.

My experience shows that Insect. Soap at that strength MUST be followed right away with a good flushing. Left in the medium, root damage will occur. Don't need that. Besides the Soap followed by a flush will remove the waxy crap. I don't advise dish soap. Buy shownuff Insecticidal Soap.

I've noticed slow recovery from RA damage. This may or may not be caused by disease. RA's inject a toxin, and then there's the waxy crap, and the time needed for root regrowth. Root stimulators are in order.

Also, I saved my Jack Herer genetics by foliar feeding. The first time I discovered RA's ["WTF are those?!?!"], in Happy Frog Potting Soil BTW, my JH mom had just a few totally yellow leaves that were about 1/4 -1/2" long. With so much root damage, I thought it was hopeless. I foliar fed them with approx. 1-1-1, trace, root stim. Two days later, there was little change except the tiny leaves were a little green. Additional foliar feedings saved the plant. Still have her clone descendant. I used Cedarcide PCO Choice to kill the little bastards, and the plant went on, with no other treatment to give me a new mother and some sweet bud.

At that time, I had no inkling of what a tough foe I had imported. I know now, but hope springs eternal for final eradication. The conflict continues... Good luck all. -granger

 

[Kronikal_kiwi]

Hey there everyone.

So I went in to check on the girls tonight, and it's not good.
One of the plants has started looking very sick (pics attached) and the others are starting to show mild signs around the edges of the leaves of heading in the same direction.

I want to flush them all heavily and see if I can rinse out the chemical and prevent any further harm.

I have also started spraying the top of the coco so all the flyers that come rushing out get hit, and hopefuly die. I am noticing a drastic reduction in flyers (though there are still lots in there). I am concidering a further plan of attack if you think it's a good idea eclipse?

First I was going to flush the remaining chemical out, then I was going to start ferts for several days to help the girls recover, I will maintain spraying the top of the coco in each bag, so hopefuly as the flyers come out (disturbed by watering) they get sprayed, and thus killed, from here on my next step is in a week (or until the girls look healthy again) I will drench them again (this time with an insecticidal soap) and then return back to ferts and see how we go.

Any advice is much appreciated.
Thank you

 

[Granger2]

Drenching will kill many of them, but the only way to get the ones that cluster just under the main stem is a 30 minute soak with the water/soap level higher than the container. Do NOT forget to flush with water at least until the run off no longer looks soapy.

Soap has no residual action, so following up with other measures, and treating the entire room is necessary. Good luck. -granger

 

[Minister]

@ kronikal kiwi,
makes me sad to see your suffering, but let me speak a word of truth since no one else will. Those plants are not resuming healthy growth no matter what you do, I challenge any grower to prove they have cured an infestation at this progressed state.

You can dunk them all you want, but the root damage is just too severe, they will hermie from the stress and make your bud full of tiny seeds resulting in harsh smoke.

I'm so sorry.
The route of least frustration is to start over and be on top from the start.

 

[ballplayer 2]

I agree with Minister. Unfortunately, it looks like you have an advanced infestation judging from the tip burn on the leaves. I had the same tip burn, brown/bronze tips extending well into the leaf; and I had not applied any pesticide. My infestation is really bad, so bad that both my male and female plants hermied almost immediately after flip to 12/12.

Judging from your flower development (adjusting for aphid damage) it looks like you could be 3 weeks into flower. With those root aphids munching away at your roots your plants are likely too compromised to handle the treatment.

As Minister said, I also think your best bet is to start over an try to beat the hell out of those little phuckers from the start. I'm sorry for your bad luck, but I'm right there with you. Hell, I cleaned and left my room dormant for 15 months... and they still came back, or never left. I'm going to clean and go at them one more time with everything I can source. If this does not work I'm done,which really is a shame since my pain level has high lately. I only pulled a few good harvests before my garden was sabotaged by these satan spawn. Just ridiculous.

 

[yerboyblue]

Kronikal, that redding/browning of the tips and edges is exactly what happened to me after my application of Orthene at 3 oz for 30 gallons. It just gets worse. Flush all you can. It won't recover just like others have said. You can still harvest some bud if you are lucky, but quality is going to be questionable and you won't yield much at all.
If you still want to wait it out, flush the chem and wait a week. Good luck. Feel free to PM me if you want some help and recommendations on moving forward from here. I've been in the exact same place as you are right now. It's heartbreaking.

 

[Kronikal_kiwi]

Yes it was the Orthene, others think its RA's but no Im certain it's the Orthene, as it only happened two days after application.
I will flush.
On the up side, the flyers are dying off. I am spraying them with Orthene as they all come flying out when I disturb the soil, and by tonight there is hardly any left! Also on the up side, that Orthene only did it to one plant, the others are fine for the most part.