Flush and starve plants during flowering??

[Gifted0ne]

Growin dope takes runs under your belt and TRUE observance from start to finish to actually witness the difference between what`s "real" and what`s "hearsay" , so take it from someone that had 4 -5 locations at all times with 2 flip rooms a month or so apart in age to pull at least 10 harveys per yr with up to 512 plants runnin at all times in different stages of growth , and there`s not an oz of bullshit in my old ass.......bet on it.....and Gifted.....

The only way for you to "dwindle" down juice last few weeks before chop is to be able to "know" how much N-P-K is in your ppms where you can swap out the N and micro as well as calcium nitrate with more potassium and phosphorus to "maintain" consistent ppm`s across the board so the plants don`t go without what they need for optimum swellage before they`re harvied......IOW.....

AS long as your guys are happy , then my vote goes for if it ain`t broke don`t fix it......but.....Do a headies run if you`ve got room to try what I`ve been screamin and preachin just to "see" if it makes a difference in the bottomline end results , and then........

Come back and let us know your findings......Ya`ll take care and I assure you I`ll not shit in anyone else`s Koolaid when they try to bash my knowledge and experience......My ego went out the door back during the "Krusty Wars" yrs and yrs ago.....and Oh.....

flushed......Sheesh....

Peace....DHF............

(i run gh Micro and bloom + pk booster in bloom)
After reading through your stuff I had planned to drop the "micro" which contains all the N, Calcium, and Micros to about half and keep the pk booster and Bloom formula at full strength. Sound about right? Or is it really necessary to increase the ppm's with the bloom?

 

[Homebrewer]

Comment Removed...

EDIT: DHF, do your thing, it's all good.

Peace.

 

[DHF]

(i run gh Micro and bloom + pk booster in bloom)
After reading through your stuff I had planned to drop the "micro" which contains all the N, Calcium, and Micros to about half and keep the pk booster and Bloom formula at full strength. Sound about right? Or is it really necessary to increase the ppm's with the bloom?

I guess I had you confused with someone else`s post about usin "jungle juice" and some other such shit for juice regimen , but What needs to be done is to keep all ppm`s "constant" and not fluctuating..and....

That means playin with your mix to maintain the "same" ppm`s as you drop said micro`s and other additives.....I ran GH 3 part and it was always easier to get adjusted when the only additives I used was SM-90 and silicablast for stemwall strength......

I did add Cal/Mag+ once I went full coco , but I had to due to the CEC/cation exchange capacity , but regardless Bro , it`s all about learning the strain AND your juice for that symbiotic relationship between the 2 for the "circadian rythm" they need to be all they can be by the time late swellage occurs......now.....

Here comes Homebrewer nippin at my heels once again like he`s proving a point when most EVERY cash cropper I`ve EVER seen doing the exact OPPOSITE of what I`m preachin and exactly like what YOU`RE stating is the way , truth , and the light by NOT flushing so.......

Since I learned how to "dwindle" down ppm`s the last few weeks of bloomage WITHOUT starving the plants , but rather figure out how to allow em to pull their reserves and keep swelling at the same time with lower ppm`s while they cannibalized themselves for the greater good by end of cycle , I`d say.....

I`m the exact OPPOSITE of the definition of a cash cropper that gives 2 fucks about the end product , but neither here nor there.....and yes , I did roll hard for many yrs HB , but the final product was ALWAYS top shelf with AT LEAST a 1 month cure , and I`ve got waaaay too many testimonies bout my shit from the most discriminating palates on the left coast that you`ve NEVER and WILL never be a part of....and lastly....

Us old hippies learned a thing or 2 over the yrs about quality control that your young and dumb ass will never see with all that tunnel vision you have......and for the record.....

Postin pics as so-called evidence of your prowess and growing skills when every fuckin pic shows definite signs of overfeeding is ludicrous at best while also showing folks REALLY in the know how much you actually DO know.......

Gifted.....Hope I was clear enough on how ta play with your juice mix and keep "consistent" ppm`s across the board so the plants don`t experience the "yo-yo" effect of higher and lower juice levels that `ll most definitely fuck with their flow and final result.....anyways.....

Holler if I can help.....

Peace....DHF...........

Edit: HB.....Callin me a cash cropper and then removing the comment like you were being diplomatic just proves my point even further that what I just explained actually shows that YOU fall into the cash cropper category by following their carefree tactics on the end result product for market.....

 

[farmdalefurr]

^^^^^^^ real shit right there

 

[Gifted0ne]

I guess I had you confused with someone else`s post about usin "jungle juice" and some other such shit for juice regimen , but What needs to be done is to keep all ppm`s "constant" and not fluctuating..and....

That means playin with your mix to maintain the "same" ppm`s as you drop said micro`s and other additives.....I ran GH 3 part and it was always easier to get adjusted when the only additives I used was SM-90 and silicablast for stemwall strength......

I did add Cal/Mag+ once I went full coco , but I had to due to the CEC/cation exchange capacity , but regardless Bro , it`s all about learning the strain AND your juice for that symbiotic relationship between the 2 for the "circadian rythm" they need to be all they can be by the time late swellage occurs......now.....

I do use jungle juice, its just a AN product copy of GH but cheaper. And I only use it with h202 no additives till wk 3 bloom where i add 1/4 strength open sesame, which i later change to cha ching is last few wks. Nothing else is added.

My main question tho was if i cut the Micro formula in half I will drop ppm's but Im still a little confused why i need to bring those ppm's back up with the bloom formula the plants already have enough PK's.

 

[DHF]

I guess I had you confused with someone else`s post about usin "jungle juice" and some other such shit for juice regimen , but What needs to be done is to keep all ppm`s "constant" and not fluctuating..and....

That means playin with your mix to maintain the "same" ppm`s as you drop said micro`s and other additives.....I ran GH 3 part and it was always easier to get adjusted when the only additives I used was SM-90 and silicablast for stemwall strength......

I did add Cal/Mag+ once I went full coco , but I had to due to the CEC/cation exchange capacity , but regardless Bro , it`s all about learning the strain AND your juice for that symbiotic relationship between the 2 for the "circadian rythm" they need to be all they can be by the time late swellage occurs......now.....

I do use jungle juice, its just a AN product copy of GH but cheaper. And I only use it with h202 no additives till wk 3 bloom where i add 1/4 strength open sesame, which i later change to cha ching is last few wks. Nothing else is added.

My main question tho was if i cut the Micro formula in half I will drop ppm's but Im still a little confused why i need to bring those ppm's back up with the bloom formula the plants already have enough PK's.

Bro.....as the plants progress through mid to late flower after end of stretch and initial budset , what happens is they need less N and Micro , but more bloom to maintain say your 8-900 ppm`s you`re currently running........IOW.......

You think they`re getting all the bloom formula they need , and it`s been argued over for many yrs about deleting the N and micro after end of stretch cuz Cash croppers yield more with flarfy airy end result nuggage , but I assure you that less is more in the long run.......anyways....

Always here to help.....Even if taken to PM so controversy won`t build as arguments and sucking life from the thread.....regardless....

Per my sig......Knowledge is power....and.....Adapt or perish.....

Peace....DHF.............

 

[Homebrewer]

DHF - I removed my comment because a conversation with you isn't worth my breath. You're a retired 'medville cropper' who chose to just settle with what you thought 'worked' instead of studying the science behind what would work best.

Other than beginners, 'croppers' are the last place an intelligent grower would ever look to for advice, especially given the product you guys produce.

 

[Gifted0ne]

Bro.....as the plants progress through mid to late flower after end of stretch and initial budset , what happens is they need less N and Micro , but more bloom to maintain say your 8-900 ppm`s you`re currently running........IOW.......

You think they`re getting all the bloom formula they need , and it`s been argued over for many yrs about deleting the N and micro after end of stretch cuz Cash croppers yield more with flarfy airy end result nuggage , but I assure you that less is more in the long run.......anyways....

Always here to help.....Even if taken to PM so controversy won`t build as arguments and sucking life from the thread.....regardless....

Per my sig......Knowledge is power....and.....Adapt or perish.....

Peace....DHF.............

I think we are on a little diff page, but I'll cut back the micro as a test.. I use different complexes of my three part throughout the grow.. The ratios change in veg to transition to bud building and lastly swell. So my formula ratios are changing about 5 times through growth to give exactly what the plant wants, i told you ive done lots of testing.

The only thing left to try according to your info would be to slowly lower the Micro formula during last few weeks. I'll do a side by side test in aero.

 

[EclipseFour20]

BTW..."starving" may not be the best course of action, but "water deficit" might be worth considering. In the world of wine, there is a concept called "terrior"

It can be defined as an interactive ecosystem,
in a given place, including climate, soil, and the vine
(rootstock and cultivar)...Some authors also
include human factors such as viticultural and enological
techniques in their definition of terrior.

This particular study concluded http://www.oliviertregoat.com/influence_of_climate_soil_cultivar.pdf:

The three main parameters of terroir—soil, cultivar, and
climate (through the vintage effect)—were studied simultaneously.
The highly significant effects of these three parameters
on vine development and berry constitution are
shown. The effect of climate was greatest on most parameters,
followed by soil and cultivar. Vine mineral uptake did
not appear to have a critical effect on fruit quality. Sunshine
hours and temperatures did not have a determining
impact on the quality of the vintage. The effects of climate
and soil on vine development and grape composition can
be explained in large part by their influence on vine water
status. Vintage influences vine water status through varying
amounts of summer rain, while soil influences vine water
status through its water-holding capacity and, possibly,
accessibility to the water table. The best vintages were
those in which the water balance from flowering to harvest
was most negative. The best soils were those on which water
deficits resulted in earlier shoot-growth slackening, reduced
berry size, and high grape sugar and anthocyanin
concentrations, thereby increasing grape quality potential.


Yes, I know cannabis and grapes are not the same...but, IMHO there are similarities worth exploring. Both have things like: "bouquet", "aroma", "taste" and "flavor".

Whether or not "water stress" influences the end product of cannabis in a positive way...is something no one knows the answer, but certainly worth exploring.

 

[DHF]

DHF - I removed my comment because a conversation with you isn't worth my breath. You're a retired 'medville cropper' who chose to just settle with what you thought 'worked' instead of studying the science behind what would work best.

Other than beginners, 'croppers' are the last place an intelligent grower would ever look to for advice, especially given the product you guys produce.

Talk about not being worth anyone`s breath......

HB .....You just don`t read do you........You jump to conclusions with pre-conceived notions and STILL have blinders on like your way is THE way as I LMFAO.......and for the record.......

I live in the Hell of the dirty south and nowhere NEAR medville , but I`ve visited my dope growin pioneer old head hippies as you call em in error many many times over the yrs to HELP maximize their efforts and guess what......

Comparing juiced up nugs like your pics attest to compared to mine or ANY of my old head growbro`s is ludicrous at best since there IS no comparison except in YOUR mind......now....

Gifted....If what you say about many tests having been done with your aero setups with all those different compilations of juice formulas has still produced full on green fans and nuggage by end of cycle , all I can attribute that to is over fed plants even after the last week R/O flush , but hey.......to each his own......

If it`s working for yas then by all means don`t try and fix what ain`t broke , but........as I stated above.....

Try a small side by side situation with some headies where you drop the micro where it won`t fuck up your production or rotations and get back to us while maintaining constant ppm`s across the board from keeping the "yo-yo effect from happening where the plants can suffer........regardless.......no more from me on this subject so as to not feed the troll......

Good luck and take care.....DHF...........

 

[Lowman]

to get back to the original point of this thread...I do like to feed very low EC just before rez change for about 24 hrs. I run drip into coco/perlite 70/30 using tap water with an EC of 0.5). The Leach(flush) for 24 hrs of very low EC(0.7) helps to keep the coco from hiolding too many nutes. In coco...you tend to wanna feed the media...not the plant. But sometimes the coco gets oversaturated with food...and upsets the balance. I didn't used to do this. I used to feed all the way till a week or so of flush. Since I started leaching between rez changes...the plants are much heathier throughout flower.

 

[Gifted0ne]

Found some more info of forums, which is pretty much parallel with my experience..

yeah all the secrets are in my thread

it is all about fermintation and proper growing, when you buy into the crap that it is ok for leaves to yellow and die at the end, use bloom foods and boosters with little or no N you end up with an inferior product. The fermintation process requires N to work properly and you can actually start the fermintation process before harvesting while they are still alive and growing. the other problem is the crap about drying takes 7 to 10 days, it should take 3 to 4 weeks, but this info comes from commercial growers in a hurry to make $$$ and most growers (especially new growers) have no patience so everyone buys into it

Ahhh if folks only did a bit of research???

___________________________________________________
NEW poster

Your definition of senescence is wrong. If the trees used up all the nutrients in the leaves, then how would it grow new leaves at the beginning of spring when it is barren?

Leaf senescence occurs in trees because there isn't enough light in fall & winter to maintain growth. Chlorophyll production comes to a halt, so the plants begin to reallocate nutrients and water to stems, bark, and the roots. Come spring, these reserves are tapped to fuel new foliage. Now if you actually used outdoor lighting you can actually prevent leaf senescence in trees.

MJ shouldn't experience senescence imo, since she is an annual. Of course leaves still turn yellow and die, but thats because people are under-feeding their plants(EDIT: Leaf yellowing is also caused by other factors, such as moisture stress, excessive nutrients, etc). The plants needs for nutrients during flowering is very high, and if someone chooses to under feed their plants, then they will experience what they falsely believe is leaf senescence.

 

[DHF]

Found some more info of forums, which is pretty much parallel with my experience..

yeah all the secrets are in my thread View Image

it is all about fermintation and proper growing, when you buy into the crap that it is ok for leaves to yellow and die at the end, use bloom foods and boosters with little or no N you end up with an inferior product. The fermintation process requires N to work properly and you can actually start the fermintation process before harvesting while they are still alive and growing. the other problem is the crap about drying takes 7 to 10 days, it should take 3 to 4 weeks, but this info comes from commercial growers in a hurry to make $$$ and most growers (especially new growers) have no patience so everyone buys into it

Ahhh if folks only did a bit of research???

___________________________________________________
NEW poster

Your definition of senescence is wrong. If the trees used up all the nutrients in the leaves, then how would it grow new leaves at the beginning of spring when it is barren?

Leaf senescence occurs in trees because there isn't enough light in fall & winter to maintain growth. Chlorophyll production comes to a halt, so the plants begin to reallocate nutrients and water to stems, bark, and the roots. Come spring, these reserves are tapped to fuel new foliage. Now if you actually used outdoor lighting you can actually prevent leaf senescence in trees.

MJ shouldn't experience senescence imo, since she is an annual. Of course leaves still turn yellow and die, but thats because people are under-feeding their plants(EDIT: Leaf yellowing is also caused by other factors, such as moisture stress, excessive nutrients, etc). The plants needs for nutrients during flowering is very high, and if someone chooses to under feed their plants, then they will experience what they falsely believe is leaf senescence.

Bro.....

I`ve been part of most of those threads and responses over the yrs , and I assure you that if what`s called as "leaf senescence" was intended for only perennials instead of "annuals" such as dope cultivars , that NO plants would "yellow off" or inspire the wine and purple almost to black strain dependent tendencies once late flower and end of cycle comes.....

GO....You can do research on weedsites till your head spins about nutrient uptake and release and lowering em till chop , and guaranteed you`ll find 10 different answers to the same query...but.....

I NEVER came here to bash your setup or technique the way you do things that work for you , but rather to tell all here that when chlorophyll is degraded by dwindling and dropping ppm`s slowly over the last few weeks before chop allows the plants to cannibalize themselves during said period FTW......guaranteed....

It`s a good thingy and well worth the effort IME as well as per all the old head growers in the know......now.....

I grew outdoors for over 12 yrs/30 + yrs ago and that "leaf senescence" was inherent and WAAAAAY obvious once the plants were on their downward slope till finish , while jackin my bitches up with Peter`s Triple 20 or Miracle Grow 10-30-15 PLUS triple phosphate 0-64-0 from the Farmers co-op since that was all that was available back in the day for swellage , and I ASSURE you they weren`t "nutrient starved"`.....so....I`ve got 1 more thing to say and I`ll be done preaching........

ANY strain grown inside from a breeder recommendation of finish time is at BEST subjective and more times than not used as a sales tactic to entice stoners to purchase their beans......that said........

If ANYONE here EVER took their plants longer than was told per "Breeder suggestions" cuz they could would most definitely tell you that the plants will guaranteed cannibalize themselves before finishing and all but dying on the vine......regardless.....

I tryta help folks and tell the "old head" truth , not what`s been spread over the yrs since the old sites died and all the old head "hippies" disappeared into obscurity to the invite only private med sites specifically due to EXACTLY always being challenged on where their thought process came from for said above explanations , as well as not givin a red fuck.........Me ?......

No reason for me to preach this shit other than it`s fact , and I can fall back at the medsites and stay there , but I try to keep the young'uns from fuckin up....I`m retired and bored....Sue me........Annuals and perrenials are 2 different ballgames but guaranteed......in the wild.....

Pot plants degrade chlorophyll and develop all the anthocyanin in their DNA as much as possible till end of cycle before death on the vine......Bet on it.......

Witnessed it first hand for many yrs......anyways...

Take EVERYTHING on the internet with a grain of salt and not GOSPEL.......but.....

Try what I`m screamin and see for yourself if it improves the bottom line.....If you follow the rules , guaranteed you`ll come back and thank me.....and hey.......

I`ve been called out for a long time from naysayers and folks that won`t take the time to do the research and confirm results to the contrary of my suggestions , but I`m still here and not goin anywhere , and they`re not around and still fuckin with me so.......

My shoulders are big enough to handle the load of being wrong , it just won`t be in this situation cuz I`ve witnessed total dialage for waaaaay too long at many many locations with mega plants run continuously and perpetually to back off what I`m tryin to help with........regardless.....

To each their own , but proof`s in da pudding....

Peace....DHF..........

 

[Homebrewer]

Bro.....

I`ve been part of most of those threads and responses over the yrs , and I assure you that if what`s called as "leaf senescence" was intended for only perennials instead of "annuals" such as dope cultivars , that NO plants would "yellow off" or inspire the wine and purple almost to black strain dependent tendencies once late flower and end of cycle comes.....

GO....You can do research on weedsites till your head spins about nutrient uptake and release and lowering em till chop , and guaranteed you`ll find 10 different answers to the same query...but.....

I NEVER came here to bash your setup or technique the way you do things that work for you , but rather to tell all here that when chlorophyll is degraded by dwindling and dropping ppm`s slowly over the last few weeks before chop allows the plants to cannibalize themselves during said period FTW......guaranteed....

It`s a good thingy and well worth the effort IME as well as per all the old head growers in the know......now.....

I grew outdoors for over 12 yrs/30 + yrs ago and that "leaf senescence" was inherent and WAAAAAY obvious once the plants were on their downward slope till finish , while jackin my bitches up with Peter`s Triple 20 or Miracle Grow 10-30-15 PLUS triple phosphate 0-64-0 from the Farmers co-op since that was all that was available back in the day for swellage , and I ASSURE you they weren`t "nutrient starved"`.....so....I`ve got 1 more thing to say and I`ll be done preaching........

ANY strain grown inside from a breeder recommendation of finish time is at BEST subjective and more times than not used as a sales tactic to entice stoners to purchase their beans......that said........

If ANYONE here EVER took their plants longer than was told per "Breeder suggestions" cuz they could would most definitely tell you that the plants will guaranteed cannibalize themselves before finishing and all but dying on the vine......regardless.....

I tryta help folks and tell the "old head" truth , not what`s been spread over the yrs since the old sites died and all the old head "hippies" disappeared into obscurity to the invite only private med sites specifically due to EXACTLY always being challenged on where their thought process came from for said above explanations , as well as not givin a red fuck.........Me ?......

No reason for me to preach this shit other than it`s fact , and I can fall back at the medsites and stay there , but I try to keep the young'uns from fuckin up....I`m retired and bored....Sue me........Annuals and perrenials are 2 different ballgames but guaranteed......in the wild.....

Pot plants degrade chlorophyll and develop all the anthocyanin in their DNA as much as possible till end of cycle before death on the vine......Bet on it.......

Witnessed it first hand for many yrs......anyways...

Take EVERYTHING on the internet with a grain of salt and not GOSPEL.......but.....

Try what I`m screamin and see for yourself if it improves the bottom line.....If you follow the rules , guaranteed you`ll come back and thank me.....and hey.......

I`ve been called out for a long time from naysayers and folks that won`t take the time to do the research and confirm results to the contrary of my suggestions , but I`m still here and not goin anywhere , and they`re not around and still fuckin with me so.......

My shoulders are big enough to handle the load of being wrong , it just won`t be in this situation cuz I`ve witnessed total dialage for waaaaay too long at many many locations with mega plants run continuously and perpetually to back off what I`m tryin to help with........regardless.....

To each their own , but proof`s in da pudding....

Peace....DHF..........

How about you throw up some pics of your plants at harvest. I'd love to see what you think 'total dialage' looks like.

 

[Gifted0ne]

This side by side should be interesting, ill see if i can get some pics in the future.

 

[DHF]

How about you throw up some pics of your plants at harvest. I'd love to see what you think 'total dialage' looks like.

If you knew , you wouldn`t have to ask for pics to show what shit`s supposed to look like by the time 62% final dry and proper cure actually occurs..........

Matters not what you think HB......It`s only what`s factual....I already said I wouldn`t post again in this thread , but I HAD to let GO know that information online is subjective at best , and even though mine is as well , I welcome ANYONE to follow the rules and come back and tell me I`m wrong.....with evidence from experience rather than conjecture and hearsay.....

Bet on it....DHF........

 

[Homebrewer]

If you knew , you wouldn`t have to ask for pics to show what shit`s supposed to look like by the time 62% final dry and proper cure actually occurs..........

Matters not what you think HB......It`s only what`s factual....I already said I wouldn`t post again in this thread , but I HAD to let GO know that information online is subjective at best , and even though mine is as well , I welcome ANYONE to follow the rules and come back and tell me I`m wrong.....with evidence from experience rather than conjecture and hearsay.....

Bet on it....DHF........

I'm well aware how plants *should* look at harvest, I was just asking for you to post pictures of your plants at harvest after you've cut out N and hammered them with P and K.

It's all good though, you're preaching a deficient look, I'm encouraging green and healthy with leaves so soft and supple you'd be tempted to throw them in a salad.

I do, however, agree with reading plants and feeding appropriately near the end of the plant's life instead of depriving them of the essentials by 'flushing', I just don't agree with the essentials you shifted to.

Different folks, different strokes .

 

[DHF]

No more from me..........

Peace....DHF.....

 

[chinqlinq]

I've seen 15-20 or more strains yellow out in their last 1-2 weeks of life as they matured and finished up. This is with organic and synthetic nutrients, in rockwool AND coco (moreso in rockwool in my personal experience). Some strains yellowed more than others. Complete yellowing from top to bottom isn't healthy but leaves turning light green/yellow in their last days of maturity is normal. Supplementing with more nitrogen in the end to deter yellowing seems unnecessary to me.

I won't say supplementing with N at the end for that reason is negative to yield because I've never recorded side by sides with that intention, but I know it will affect quality. Most feed charts from all the big nutrient companies either taper off the NPK/EC evenly at the end, or switch to formulas/ratios with very little N to much more P-K - something like 1-4-5.

I don't recommend cutting out N completely though at any point in the cycle except for the flush.

 

[rives]

Not to add any fuel to the debate, but I think that, as with most things, there is validity in both approaches. I've done both, and what I've found is that there is a bit higher production to be had by staying green to the end. However, when I taper off over the last few weeks, the taste is as good or better after a couple of weeks of drying as the green-to-the-end material after a 2-month cure. Since I don't market any product and grow far more than I can use, I'll happily exchange a slight downfall in production for a better-tasting end result.