Flush and starve plants during flowering??

[ThaiBliss]

Shouldn't we be using analogies from wine, tea, coffee, tobacco, mint, hops, and other herbs? Most of all, from traditional Cannabis growers from 50 to 1,000 years ago. What makes people think that we are wiser and smarter with our scientific assumptions from post world war II. There have been Cannabis farmers where the knowledge was passed down from generation to generation. Cannabis has been cultivated for 10,000 years, as long as any other plant known from history.

I have heard of all kinds of traditional methods that people view as "torture", such as impaling or girdling. I don't necessarily believe in using these, but I wonder what purpose did these methods serve. The only thing I can come up with is to interfere with the transfer of sugars, water, or nutrients. I don't do these, but I don't heavily fertilize anymore. I learned that at least 20 years ago. I've experienced and heard of too many anecdotal stories of the best weed people have grown, and it always seems associated with plants that are not babied or pampered, just like wine grapes are not pampered or over watered. I guess it depends heavily on what your definition of best is. To me, it has nothing to do with looks, smell, taste, or quantity. Best to me is all about the quality of the high and the potency.

Flushing seems like a shortcut method as a last minute prevention of over fertilization by leaching as much as you can just before harvest.

 

[DrFever]

Shouldn't we be using analogies from wine, tea, coffee, tobacco, mint, hops, and other herbs? Most of all, from traditional Cannabis growers from 50 to 1,000 years ago. What makes people think that we are wiser and smarter with our scientific assumptions from post world war II. There have been Cannabis farmers where the knowledge was passed down from generation to generation. Cannabis has been cultivated for 10,000 years, as long as any other plant known from history.

I have heard of all kinds of traditional methods that people view as "torture", such as impaling or girdling. I don't necessarily believe in using these, but I wonder what purpose did these methods serve. The only thing I can come up with is to interfere with the transfer of sugars, water, or nutrients. I don't do these, but I don't heavily fertilize anymore. I learned that at least 20 years ago. I've experienced and heard of too many anecdotal stories of the best weed people have grown, and it always seems associated with plants that are not babied or pampered, just like wine grapes are not pampered or over watered. I guess it depends heavily on what your definition of best is. To me, it has nothing to do with looks, smell, taste, or quantity. Best to me is all about the quality of the high and the potency.

Flushing seems like a shortcut method as a last minute prevention of over fertilization by leaching as much as you can just before harvest.

i would like to find the clown that started this whole flushing idea and slap him upside the head ,,,
Here is a thought ????
which is still practiced in india / pakistan is lowering water in flowering phase which triggers plants hormones to start fighting for life in turn producing more THC

 

[rives]

I taper the nutrients down over the last few weeks, and run the last couple at about 200ppm. This minimizes the chlorophyll at the end, which is important to me because I make topical oils out of the leaves and that green shit stains my skin and clothing. I'm also reasonably certain that it helps the taste - if you chew the stem of a fresh, green fan leaf, it is bitter as hell. After the plant has had the nutrient level reduced at the end, chewing the stem will result in an almost sweet taste. It will certainly shorten up the cure time.

 

[stihgnobevoli]

Got to tell you guys maintaining a healthy plant in all stages is key and that means keeping her green , Flushing should only be used when you have salt build up or potential issues and that is to clean out your medium with a mild nutrient and start corrections from there, letting your plant yellow off is not normal most yellowing in nature is do to the fact of seasonal weather and sun duration fall etc , frost , rain falls are less in fall so in nature it does not leach out you ever here the terms april showers ????
so with that said can anyone tell me what Nitrogen , phos tastes like ??? I really would like to know last time i checked plants break down the nutrients before they uptake
like many good growers will do is lower there Ec / ppm not cut plant food right off
Why would anyone cut off plant food force yellowing . starve a plant when plant is at part of its life packing on weight like being a professional hockey player and not eating 2 days before a game you think your going to play good ???

all leaves don't turn yellow as the nitrogen runs out...some turn purple and red like on your plants

 

[EclipseFour20]

Re wine, I have forgotten more than most people will learn in their lifetime!

Re wine, I have forgotten more than most people will learn in their lifetime!

Shouldn't we be using analogies from wine, tea, coffee, tobacco, mint, hops, and other herbs?
.... I learned that at least 20 years ago. I've experienced and heard of too many anecdotal stories of the best weed people have grown, and it always seems associated with plants that are not babied or pampered, just like wine grapes are not pampered or over watered. ....

I like your thinking--so let's take a page from those crazy enologists and examine the how "terroir" effects wine of different vintages.

For the uninitiated wine buff, from wiki:
Terroir (French pronunciation: ​[tɛʁwaʁ] from terre, "land") is the set of special characteristics that the geography, geology and climate of a certain place, interacting with plant genetics, express in agricultural products such as wine, coffee, chocolate, hops, tomatoes, heritage wheat, and tea. The concept has also crossed to other Protected Appellations of Origin (PDOs a form of geographical indication), products such as cheeses.

Terroir can be very loosely translated as "a sense of place," which is embodied in certain characteristic qualities, the sum of the effects that the local environment has had on the production of the product. Terroir is often italicized in English writing to show that it is a French loanword.

The concept of terroir is at the base of the French wine Appellation d'origine contrôlée (AOC) system that has been the model for appellation and wine laws around the globe. At its core is the assumption that the land from which the grapes are grown imparts a unique quality that is specific to that growing site. The amount of influence and the scope that falls under the description of terroir has been a controversial topic in the wine industry.[1]


The study, titled "Influence of Climate, Soil, and Cultivar on Terroir" http://www.oliviertregoat.com/influence_of_climate_soil_cultivar.pdf, concluded--

The best vintages were those in which the water balance from flowering to harvest was most negative. The best soils were those on which water deficits resulted in earlier shoot-growth slackening, reduced berry size, and high grape sugar and anthocyanin concentrations, thereby increasing grape quality potential.

Abstract from that study--
The three main components of terroir—soil, climate, and cultivar—were studied simultaneously. Vine
development and berry composition of nonirrigated Vitis vinifera L. cv. Merlot, Cabernet franc, and Cabernet Sauvignon
were compared on a gravelly soil, a soil with a heavy clay subsoil, and a sandy soil with a water table within the
reach of the roots. The influence of climate was assessed with year-to-year variations of maximum and minimum
temperatures, degree days (base of 10°C), sunshine hours, ETo, rainfall, and water balance for the period 1996 to
2000. The effects of climate, soil, and cultivar were found to be highly significant with regard to vine behavior
and berry composition (an example being anthocyanin concentration). The impacts of climate and soil were greater
than that of cultivar. Many of the variables correlated with the intensity of vine water stress. It is likely that the
effects of climate and soil on fruit quality are mediated through their influence on vine water status.


Imposing a water defict between flowering and harvest on a healthy plant sounds crazy...but if the plant's terpene and trichome qualities improve--then maybe it is not soo crazy. Try it. What is your plant's terroir?

 

[ElusiveQuark]

So does wild cannabis, without direct human intervention, turn colors and lose fan leaves as it reaches maturity?

 

[ElusiveQuark]

The only way to settle this is two grow two clones side by side and subject one to the fade and keep feeding the other and see which one produces most desired result: potency, yield, terp profile, length of cure and impact on trimming (trimming sucks) are variables that come to mind.

 

[stihgnobevoli]

why the fuck is that even an argument ^^^?? ???

all plants turn colors naturally as they run out of nutrients. these are fucking easily observed facts every goddamn fall.

 

[ElusiveQuark]

Isn't that the crux of what is being discussed. I am not sure that many plants in the wild "run out of nutrients." Also many do not change color significantly. So you are certain that all wild cannabis changes color and loses leaves at the end of its life. I don't know the answer and Web search was inconclusive, brief though it was. Maybe I overdid the wake n bake, I could be creating my own reality.

 

[ThaiBliss]

The only way to settle this is two grow two clones side by side and subject one to the fade and keep feeding the other and see which one produces most desired result: potency, yield, terp profile, length of cure and impact on trimming (trimming sucks) are variables that come to mind.

All in all, a valid point ElusiveQuark.

My favorite part of the quote: "trimming sucks"

It is easier said than done:

1.) It would have to be a blind test.

2.) The level of nitrogen affects flowering start and length, so a method of deciding when to harvest would have to be worked out.

3.) There would have to be a broad range of judges with varying preferences of highs. I think it is possible that different people on this thread are talking different effects/qualities without each other even knowing it.

4.) The test subjects, the clones, would have to come from a broad range of varieties.


This is just to name a few off the top of my head. I'm sure there are dozens more considerations that a scientific study would have to consider.

This would all be much easier if Cannabis was taken off Schedule I listing by the U.S. government.

ThaiBliss

 

[Homebrewer]

why the fuck is that even an argument ^^^?? ???

all plants turn colors naturally as they run out of nutrients. these are fucking easily observed facts every goddamn fall.

I think you need to better understand the differences between annuals and perennials and why each may change color outdoors in the fall. This is the INDOOR hydro forum, your annuals INDOORS will only change color due to grower error (or genetics in the case of purples/magentas).

 

[Crooked8]

^^ or a solid 2-3 week flush

 

[stihgnobevoli]

i think you guys need a better understanding of soil ecology. the reason your plants indoors never run out of food is because... YOU ARE ALWAYS GIVING THEM FOOD UNTIL YOU DECIDE TO STOP. in nature it's on a prescribed timer.

in the winter all the leaves and shit from the trees that fell off in...the fall... are being composted. by spring when the ground thaws (this happens to some degree everywhere on the planet, even at the equator. the nutrients are available from there throughout summer. by the fall the nutrients that were built up are used now and the sun is farther away which means everything that was working to keep the plants alive is either dying off or going into hibernation of one form or another to prepare for winter when the sun is furthest away and life energy is at it's minimum for the year.


then it starts all over again. exceptions being evergreens which have smaller leaves and less light requirements and are green all year round. you'll also note they grow a lot slower than most other plants.

if there was food available in the ground in nature all the time then we wouldn't have a need for packaged fertilizers, or crop rotations.

i wonder where you guys are getting your knowledgebase sometimes cuz you say some absurd things.

soil or hydro. these are basic things to plant life in general. and this thread is about flushing. which is a principle that applies to any media. i dunno why you keep pointing out that this is the hydro forum either.

 

[Homebrewer]

i think you guys need a better understanding of soil ecology. the reason your plants indoors never run out of food is because... YOU ARE ALWAYS GIVING THEM FOOD UNTIL YOU DECIDE TO STOP. in nature it's on a prescribed timer.

in the winter all the leaves and shit from the trees that fell off in...the fall... are being composted. by spring when the ground thaws (this happens to some degree everywhere on the planet, even at the equator. the nutrients are available from there throughout summer. by the fall the nutrients that were built up are used now and the sun is farther away which means everything that was working to keep the plants alive is either dying off or going into hibernation of one form or another to prepare for winter when the sun is furthest away and life energy is at it's minimum for the year.

The Earth is closest to the sun during the winter months.

http://www.space.com/3304-earth-closest-sun-dead-winter.html

then it starts all over again. exceptions being evergreens which have smaller leaves and less light requirements and are green all year round. you'll also note they grow a lot slower than most other plants.

if there was food available in the ground in nature all the time then we wouldn't have a need for packaged fertilizers, or crop rotations.

i wonder where you guys are getting your knowledgebase sometimes cuz you say some absurd things.

soil or hydro. these are basic things to plant life in general. and this thread is about flushing. which is a principle that applies to any media. i dunno why you keep pointing out that this is the hydro forum either.

You're talking about leaves dropping and composting over the winter but WHY are the leaves dropping in the first place? Because of environmental signals like colder nights and shorter days. Does this happen indoors? Nope. You're artificially inducing a 'fall look' by giving the plant what YOU want instead of what the PLANT wants. That's poor gardening.

 

[stihgnobevoli]

you call it poor gardening i call it following nature. and also look up what the equinox is. i think you might be confused.

Its lowest and highest points are, respectively, the winter and summer solstices.

i live in florida it doesn't get (that) cold here, but the sun does stay in the sky less time during the day which triggers plants to die since they aren't getting enough light to produce the energy needed to sustain all that foliage, and also because there soon won't be any vitamins readily available in the soil and they need to hibernate for the winter. same as just about all creatures on this planet. why you think cannabis is exempt from the laws i dunno. all plants and animals prepare for winter in some way or another.

 

[Homebrewer]

you call it poor gardening i call it following nature. and also look up what the equinox is. i think you might be confused.

I'm confused??? The equinox is when the sun moves from one hemisphere to the other (happens twice per year) and is not related to distance but rather the Earth's axis.

http://www.space.com/22852-fall-equinox-earth-seasons-explained.html

i live in florida it doesn't get (that) cold here, but the sun does stay in the sky less time during the day which triggers plants to die since they aren't getting enough light to produce the energy needed to sustain all that foliage, and also because there soon won't be any vitamins readily available in the soil and they need to hibernate for the winter. same as just about all creatures on this planet. why you think cannabis is exempt from the laws i dunno. all plants and animals prepare for winter in some way or another.

Do you have 'winter' in your INDOOR grow room? Why are you looking to nature and the ever changing seasonal environment for clues as to how plants should perform in a stable INDOOR environment.

Outdoor cannabis may change colors due to cooler nights and as you said, less nutrients due to slower biological activity in the soil but this is NOT what happens inside. We, as indoor cultivators, can improve on what happens outside by replicating the 'perfect day' 365 days per year.

My apologies if I'm coming off as rude but this is basic science and common sense. Plus I feel like you're not using google before you post .

 

[Resu]

Well known growers, those that win cannabis cups, flush their crops. Maybe they are on to something?

 

[stihgnobevoli]

i never said we couldn't. i thought our disagreement was whether we should or not. i'm with the shouldn't "improve" on nature but rather mimic it.

yes you're right the equinox is twice a year. once as the sun is moving closer to the sun and once as it's moving away. the earth...seems to tilt also because it spins at an angle. 23 degrees is it? i know that scientists say the earth wobbles but since no one has a solid understanding of the universe and because e=mc2 i personally think the earth keeps the same degree of tilt and it just seems to flip flop because of the way our planet orbits our star. but that aside. the earth is closest to the sun and farthest from the sun once a year at the beginning of spring and the beginning of fall. solar energy drives the entire planet, when it starts to warm on the surface life activity speeds up, when it cools, it slows down.

i try and mimic this. i start with light feed, reach a peak somewhere near the midpoint. weeks 4-6 of flower. then taper back down to nothing. just like outside.

 

[HerBnGorE(illa)]

Who is taking a tiny bit of science and extrapolating on it? What bit of science are you speaking of? Plant biology? Id hardly call that a "tiny nugget of science"

Please be specific and include examples/quotes when saying things like "You said" or "people do".


Why do you assume that the only other alternative to starving plants is overfeeding them? Nobody said that. You said that so it would be easy to defend your position.

What about just keeping them healthy?

You said plants need chlorophyl. So why flush it out?

If your leaves are yellowing and falling off, you are nitrogen deficient.

If you remove protein from a persons diet, do you think they are going to reach their potential in a sport like body building?

And please post a link to the paper about plants producing toxins and warning other plants of insects. I have seen similar stories but havent read them comprehensively.

I find it hard to believe plants that dont produce toxins normally can produce poison if threatened.

Everytime you mention a "study" or paper and use it in your argument, please link it. Without a link, it is meaningless. I like to read stuff like that as well.

***try doing a search for methyl jasmonate or jasmonic acid...***

 

[HerBnGorE(illa)]

Or check out the book "what a plant knows: a field guide to the senses"