madpenguin
Member
They very well could... BTW, they're not called the "NEC police", they are called "pallbearers"...
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FlipBox BY PowerBox??
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They very well could... BTW, they're not called the "NEC police", they are called "pallbearers"...
madpenguin
Member
Yep. It will have multiple ratings. The DPDT I have in my hand says:
30A 240VAC
20A 277VAC
10A 600VAC
That's actually a very astute and well rounded assumption but isn't the case. One might argue that the higher the voltage goes the more amps you can draw. That's not the case with the relay in my hand and perhaps an EE could answer why that is, because I can't. The contacts themselves must not be able to withstand much current when a high voltage is applied to them. Dunno.
It depends on what is feeding the primary side. If your ballast is 120v then the socket shell should be "at or near" 0 volts to ground.
If your primary side is fed with 240, then your socket shell will have current on it, thus the whole reason for avengers argument of switching both conductors via relay instead of just one.
It's just a transformer. Even when supplied by 240v primary side, your secondary side is going to out put much more voltage than that. Thus the reason for 600v rated flexible cord or some "cheap skates" like to use romex because it's rated for 600v as well.
It wouldn't. TBQH, I'm fairly ignorant of flip/flops because I've never even held one in my hand, much less have taken one apart but I don't really need to because I understand the concept behind them. It's when companies try to make a "universal - one size fits all" flip/flop is when you run into trouble. That is ofcourse unless they are using the proper receptacles for the voltage supplied and also switching all conductors even tho one of them might actually be a neutral.
I argued against switching the neutral in a 120v flip but the NEC does allow it, as long as all hot conductors are simultaneously switched as well. I would never presume to make a 120/240 universal flip/flop in the first place so I myself probably wouldn't switch the neutral on a 120v only flip.
To each his own...
Good thing is I've built every flip with a 600V dpdt relay and 2 lights 1 ballast for the last 10 years. When the ballast is powered off before the flip cycle, the bulb discharges back through capacitor. Then turn power back on, no arcing. With a PLC it's easy to switch off and on the ballasts and flip the lights, in 3 seconds. I remember the IPControls Equalizer flips would shock you when you touched the enclosure on a part that wasn't powdercoated. This was when the ballasts were wird for 240V. Told the owner what was wrong and how to fix it. They sold hundreds of flips and timerboxes, all them garbage. Here's what to look for in a flip.....
- 600V rated relay.
- dpdt relay.
- 600V rated lampcords and receptacles.
- vented enclosure.
- 600V rated wiring, terminal lugs, crimps, etc.
- watertight.
- compression fittings.
Is there a section in the NEC that refers to contactors/relays in an enclosure and venting or louvres. I'm gonna order a copy of that publication. Canada has it's own code, but chances are they're identical, thanx madpenguin.
- 600V rated relay.
- dpdt relay.
- 600V rated lampcords and receptacles.
- vented enclosure.
- 600V rated wiring, terminal lugs, crimps, etc.
- watertight.
- compression fittings.
Is there a section in the NEC that refers to contactors/relays in an enclosure and venting or louvres. I'm gonna order a copy of that publication. Canada has it's own code, but chances are they're identical, thanx madpenguin.
Maybe some day Avenger yourself and I could team up and put them all out of business. FYI just sold my 27 business. Just trying to catch the next wave. Peace. Keep it fun, life is too short.
If I had about $200K, I would be building flips and loadcenters for Canada, United States, and Europe. It's an easy market to take over. Money is important but so is the electrical background. If you're serious Doradoguy, send me an email....
If I owned a yacht, it would have room for workshop, or at least an assembly area on deck.....lol
If I had about $200K, I would be building flips and loadcenters for Canada, United States, and Europe. It's an easy market to take over. Money is important but so is the electrical background. If you're serious Doradoguy, send me an email....
If I owned a yacht, it would have room for workshop, or at least an assembly area on deck.....lol
What if the ballast is a Constant Wattage Isolated (CWI), meaning the secondary side is completely isolated physically from the primary?
In this case the common is not physicaly connected to ground at any point. Even if you are supplying 120 volts to power it.
Do you think its a good idea to only switch the one lead(center pin connection of the lampholder)?
In this case the common is not physicaly connected to ground at any point. Even if you are supplying 120 volts to power it.
Do you think its a good idea to only switch the one lead(center pin connection of the lampholder)?
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Well said brother!
UL Industrial Control Equipment (NIMX) said:
i can't find anything that gives specifications to the construction of the vents or louvers though.
from Kris..
Thmf,
I see guys talking about 120v/240v in reference to ballasts. Regardless of ballast input voltage, the output of the ballast is the same. To say that a ballast that is run 120v has a different output voltage or amperage vs a 240v is incorrect as far as I know. Walt (erics dad) at supreme power conversions tested the output of the ballasts with some crazy looking machine/device and regardless of 120/240 the output of the ballast was the same. What that was is a mystery to me. I just remember him telling me the ballast converts the incoming voltage to the proper output for the bulb. And that the relay I was using was over sized. Again I could be wrong.....
ALSO I believe ALL ballasts tell you to disconnect the power and or unplug the reflector before changing/servicing bulbs. I am adding a line to the instructions stating " the horti-control LF Series is wired with common neutrals. This means that the unlit bulb may be carrying current despite being unlit. UNPLUG REFLECTOR CORDS FROM LF SERIES BEFORE SERVICING BULBS!
Again, I am waiting for a second opinion, and will let you know what I find. And if anyone still doesn't believe there is less arcing with only hots switching, should go in a dark room and wire 2 flips one with both switched and one with only hots switched. You can clearly see greater arching with both switched. Why? IDK, but I witnessed this phenomenon myself. strange I know, but i'm not that crazy.......
Kris
Thmf,
I see guys talking about 120v/240v in reference to ballasts. Regardless of ballast input voltage, the output of the ballast is the same. To say that a ballast that is run 120v has a different output voltage or amperage vs a 240v is incorrect as far as I know. Walt (erics dad) at supreme power conversions tested the output of the ballasts with some crazy looking machine/device and regardless of 120/240 the output of the ballast was the same. What that was is a mystery to me. I just remember him telling me the ballast converts the incoming voltage to the proper output for the bulb. And that the relay I was using was over sized. Again I could be wrong.....
ALSO I believe ALL ballasts tell you to disconnect the power and or unplug the reflector before changing/servicing bulbs. I am adding a line to the instructions stating " the horti-control LF Series is wired with common neutrals. This means that the unlit bulb may be carrying current despite being unlit. UNPLUG REFLECTOR CORDS FROM LF SERIES BEFORE SERVICING BULBS!
Again, I am waiting for a second opinion, and will let you know what I find. And if anyone still doesn't believe there is less arcing with only hots switching, should go in a dark room and wire 2 flips one with both switched and one with only hots switched. You can clearly see greater arching with both switched. Why? IDK, but I witnessed this phenomenon myself. strange I know, but i'm not that crazy.......
Kris
madpenguin
Member
I think Kris misunderstood the primary voltage debate. Yes, the secondary taps will always output the same voltage regardless of the primary voltage. It's whether or not the socket shell is hot depending upon the primary voltage is what we are talking about.....
BTW, just in theory and common sense, I would tend to agree that there _should_ be less arcing if the neutrals are not also switched.
I'm a little confused... Do the horti-control flips ALWAYS switch ALL hot conductors? If so then that's proper and I don't know what the big stink is about.
BTW, just in theory and common sense, I would tend to agree that there _should_ be less arcing if the neutrals are not also switched.
I'm a little confused... Do the horti-control flips ALWAYS switch ALL hot conductors? If so then that's proper and I don't know what the big stink is about.
I should have drawn Kris a picture.
Yes, no matter what the voltage supplied to the ballast is, the output or "open circuit voltage" is always the same. That is one of the functions of the transformer, to supply the proper voltage to maintain the arc in the lamp.
However, depending on what voltage the ballast is supplied with, the "common" lead of the ballst could have any number of voltages on it.
If the ballast is supplied with 120 volts then the "common" is connected to the "neutral" and has no voltage potential to ground, because as you know the neutral is a groundd conductor.
Now if the ballast is supplied with 240 volts then the "common" lead of the ballast is connected to one of the 120 volt legs that make up the 240 volt potential. This means that there is 120 volts between the "common" and any "ground".
"Where supplied by the ungrounded conductors of a circuit, the switching device of lampholders of the switched type shall simultaneously disconnect both conductors of the circuit.”
Never leave it up to the customer to be safe. Someone will think that since the flipflop has switched over to the other bulb, that it is safe to service the unlit bulb.
the "common" lead of the ballast is not a "neutral" if the ballast is supplied with any voltage other than 120v. It is "Hot"!
No, they do not. They sell a one size flipflop fits all ballasts no matter what voltage they are supplied with. Their flip flop that onlyswitches one lead, the center pin connection can nd most certainly is utilized on by many gardeners with ballasts that are supplied with 240 volts or even 277 volts, or even 480 volts.
Yes, no matter what the voltage supplied to the ballast is, the output or "open circuit voltage" is always the same. That is one of the functions of the transformer, to supply the proper voltage to maintain the arc in the lamp.
However, depending on what voltage the ballast is supplied with, the "common" lead of the ballst could have any number of voltages on it.
If the ballast is supplied with 120 volts then the "common" is connected to the "neutral" and has no voltage potential to ground, because as you know the neutral is a groundd conductor.
Now if the ballast is supplied with 240 volts then the "common" lead of the ballast is connected to one of the 120 volt legs that make up the 240 volt potential. This means that there is 120 volts between the "common" and any "ground".
"Where supplied by the ungrounded conductors of a circuit, the switching device of lampholders of the switched type shall simultaneously disconnect both conductors of the circuit.”
Never leave it up to the customer to be safe. Someone will think that since the flipflop has switched over to the other bulb, that it is safe to service the unlit bulb.
the "common" lead of the ballast is not a "neutral" if the ballast is supplied with any voltage other than 120v. It is "Hot"!
No, they do not. They sell a one size flipflop fits all ballasts no matter what voltage they are supplied with. Their flip flop that onlyswitches one lead, the center pin connection can nd most certainly is utilized on by many gardeners with ballasts that are supplied with 240 volts or even 277 volts, or even 480 volts.
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Ok you guys got me thinking. If want to get something done, you better do it yourself. I'm unbiased and just curious. I will do a little testing tonight. If I don't report back I killed myself. I do have some fancy meters, a couple capitors, and extra ballast to smoke. Anybody want to join me? Hopefully the only smoke is..... I will do some testing in the dark. I think I have the right relays. I kinda think I'm wasting my time. Anybody who can whip up drawings like Avenger has my vote.
Thanx Avenger, that schematic illustrates your point perfectly. I wired two relays for four lights and two ballasts. One relay has the neutrals common and the other relay the neutrals were switched with the hots. There was no difference in the arcing. Used a digital camera to record both sets of arcing relays and there was no difference in the arcing. Did this in a room with no lights. There is no less arcing with common neutrals than with switched neutrals. When wiring 240V, one of the hots is connected to the neutral on the ballast transformer and the other neutral from the transformer goes to the lamp. The neutral is now not a grounded conductor, but an ungrounded hot, there is the shock hazard. As for venting, the enclosure gets very hot without venting, especially if there are several relays inside.
What a waste of time. Lets just say Avenger is right. The output side was scary. Over 600 volts as expected. No arc difference. I was going to wire up a cap but didn't have one I was comfortable not blowing up. So two leads on one relay cheaper yes. Safer no. Because I'm not a bare footed hippie I'll live on the edge. However I would never build one for a customer or friend. Just not worth it and plenty to kill you. On second thought for an extra 20.00 I'll use an extra relay. That's my two cents worth.
FYI I think for the average gardner it's worth purchasing one vs. building one. Or have nut head build you one. I know too many will short cut and not have the proper crimp tools or install it correctly in a fire safe metal box. By the time you pick up all the connectors, relays and box to install it, then try to understand how it works. The spread will be marginal.
FYI I think for the average gardner it's worth purchasing one vs. building one. Or have nut head build you one. I know too many will short cut and not have the proper crimp tools or install it correctly in a fire safe metal box. By the time you pick up all the connectors, relays and box to install it, then try to understand how it works. The spread will be marginal.
madpenguin
Member
I'd kinda like to do an IP trace of the last 4 people who posted.... For some reason, low post counts and similar topic material/data/conclusions makes me a little suspicious....
I think we should wind down this thread TBH. Everything has been discussed that needs to be discussed and people can decide for them selves on whether or not to build a flip or purchase one from at least 3 companies that have been mentioned on this thread.....
For some reason, low post counts and similar topic material/data/conclusions makes me a little suspicious....I think we should wind down this thread TBH. Everything has been discussed that needs to be discussed and people can decide for them selves on whether or not to build a flip or purchase one from at least 3 companies that have been mentioned on this thread.....
I'd kinda like to do an IP trace of the last 4 people who posted....
I think we should wind down this thread TBH. Everything has been discussed that needs to be discussed and people can decide for them selves on whether or not to build a flip or purchase one from at least 3 companies that have been mentioned on this thread.....
Not sure what you are trying to say! If you do some checking you'll find I post quite a bit on another forum. Just happens to be I was researching flips for another thread and stumbled upon this one. I was considering switching forums but with comments like that, not sure I'm welcome. I agree it appears one person posting as two. It still makes for good reading though. It just not me.
A Dorado is a fish, I just happen to like to catch. Thank you everyone for there input. Thread done.
