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FlipBox BY PowerBox??
- Thread starter green_thumb...
- Start date
PS we need your ip address madpenguin. You're one of the last 4 posts.
via Kris ''Does avenger realize we are switching the ballast output? I can't seem to buy into the cord going from the ballast to the bulb would have different voltages depending on the voltage supplied to the ballast.
Avenger,
there are three wires running FROM the Ballast TO the Reflector. White, green, and Black.
You mean to tell me that when the ballast is powered by 120v the white is not hot. (white to reflector)
But when the ballast is powered by 240 the white (to reflector) is now hot?
just like when you install a double pole breaker for 240?
That to me seems incorrect.
If the output of the ballast is ac, then regardless of the voltage it is putting out (at lamp strike vs full operating draw, etc.) you are saying that both the white and black wires from ballast to reflector are carrying voltage? So it essentially has 2 hot wires and a ground ?(green)''
Kris
Avenger,
there are three wires running FROM the Ballast TO the Reflector. White, green, and Black.
You mean to tell me that when the ballast is powered by 120v the white is not hot. (white to reflector)
But when the ballast is powered by 240 the white (to reflector) is now hot?
just like when you install a double pole breaker for 240?
That to me seems incorrect.
If the output of the ballast is ac, then regardless of the voltage it is putting out (at lamp strike vs full operating draw, etc.) you are saying that both the white and black wires from ballast to reflector are carrying voltage? So it essentially has 2 hot wires and a ground ?(green)''
Kris
YES
Sorry you can't comprehend this. I am trying my bestest to make it simple enough for you.
"Hot" is a bad way to describe it. It is more correct to say that it is at ground potential. Meaning you would measure no voltage between it and a ground source. There is electrical current on it.
Yes, if the ballast is supplied with 240v, the white "common" now has a voltage potential to ground of 120 volts all the time.
The lamp needs a certain voltage, called "open circuit voltage", to maintain the arc. For a 1000 watt HPS lamp this is about 410 volts. The ballast takes what ever voltage you supply and turns it into this 410 volts. It is 410 volts between the white common and the black "lamp" wires coming out of the ballast. The lamp doesn't care if all the voltage is on the black "lamp" wire or if it is split between the two or if it is all on the "common". Just so long as you have 410 volts between the two.
So if you supply the ballast with 240 volts then the "common" has 120 volts potential to ground, and 410 volts potential between the black "lamp" wire from the ballast. And the black "lamp" wire from the ballast has about 300 volts potential to ground, where as if the ballast was supplied with 120v the black "lamp" wire from the ballast would have all 410 volts potential to ground.
Make any sense?
Attachments
madpenguin
Member
I think there is a key misunderstanding here about how ballasts operate secondary side, or... There is just a misunderstanding about what the effect of primary voltage has on the secondary side. With regards to overall voltage.... It has no effect. Overall voltage between socket shell and center pin will remain the same regardless of input voltage. That's the function of the ballast is to control the voltage between the screw shell and the center tap so the lamp receives it's specified voltage.
What Avenger is debating is that the voltage potential "to ground" will vary at the socket shell depending on what the input voltage is. Again.... Regardless of what the input voltage is, you will still have the rated voltage at the lamp. Voltage is measured between two points. In this case, the socket shell and the center pin of the lampholder, or between the socket shell and ground. Two points. Doesn't matter which.
If you supply the primary side of the ballast with 120v, the socket shell will be roughly at ground potential and the center pin will supply the rated voltage to the lamp. In other words, the socket shell will have no voltage.
Say your on a 120/208 wye system and you supply the primary side with 208v... Between the socket shell and ground (an equipment grounding conductor from a branch circuit somewhere), you will measure roughly 120v at the socket shell. The socket shell is now hot! The socket shell will have 120v and the center pin will have much more to get the lamp operating at the voltage that it needs.
I'm not sure how else to explain it. No one is saying the lamp will receive any other voltage than what it's rated to operate at. That being the "overall" voltage between the socket shell and the center pin. But the socket shell volatge-to-ground will most certainly change depending on what the primary voltage is.
Get a 750v True RMS multimeter and test it out if you don't believe me. Get a ballast that interchanges between 120 and 240 depending on what cord your using. Fire the primary up with 120 and put one lead on the socket shell and the other lead on a known ground like an EGC or a copper water pipe. You'll read 0 volts or pretty damn close to it if not 0.
Now swap out the cords for the 240v one and fire that same ballast up with 240v. Do the same test of measuring between socket shell and a known ground. You will read roughly 120v.
Now...... No matter which supply voltage you are using, the overall voltage potential between the socket shell and the center pin will be the same. Otherwise, the lamp couldn't fire up.
yep
yep
If it's being supplied by 240v, then yes.
madpenguin
Member
Ah shit... Too slow. I just wasted all that time typing.... 
madpenguin
Member
Me being VERY safety and NEC oriented, this is why I would never make a universal flip/flop, even for myself, mush less sell one. The potential to get zapped is very real if you don't switch both "hots" secondary side.
I would make either a 120v ballast flip or a 240v ballast flip, but not both. Now.... You could always switch both secondary side conductors regardless so no matter what the input voltage is, your bases would be covered, but again, I'm not overly sure what actually happens when you switch an actual neutral (if you were using 120v ballasts).
As a general rule, I don't like to break neutrals anywhere unless it's on a separately derived system. Something inside me says "never impede the current flow back to the panel!!!!!"
I haven't designed flip/flops before much less been doing it for years so I can't argue the finer points of switching the neutral such as how Powerbox does it (atleast I think they do it from what I read).....
Anyway...... Whatever. This debate is getting a little old but I will say unequivocally that Avenger is right. And since he is quoting shit from the NEC, I'm going to guess that he is an electrician. That or really digs electricity. Either way, there really is no debate. If your not switching both conductors secondary side with a primary volatge other than 120, then there is a potential for someone to get hurt. Adding a blurb to the packaging stating never to service any unlit lamp unless the entire flip/flop box has been powered down would be a wise one.
I would make either a 120v ballast flip or a 240v ballast flip, but not both. Now.... You could always switch both secondary side conductors regardless so no matter what the input voltage is, your bases would be covered, but again, I'm not overly sure what actually happens when you switch an actual neutral (if you were using 120v ballasts).
As a general rule, I don't like to break neutrals anywhere unless it's on a separately derived system. Something inside me says "never impede the current flow back to the panel!!!!!"
I haven't designed flip/flops before much less been doing it for years so I can't argue the finer points of switching the neutral such as how Powerbox does it (atleast I think they do it from what I read).....
Anyway...... Whatever. This debate is getting a little old but I will say unequivocally that Avenger is right. And since he is quoting shit from the NEC, I'm going to guess that he is an electrician. That or really digs electricity. Either way, there really is no debate. If your not switching both conductors secondary side with a primary volatge other than 120, then there is a potential for someone to get hurt. Adding a blurb to the packaging stating never to service any unlit lamp unless the entire flip/flop box has been powered down would be a wise one.
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Mr. Stinky
Member
this GE timer is only 38 bucks at home depot and will run a 1 light flip. why spend all that money on a simple 2 pole relay, when this is the exact same thing?
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs..._mmc=shopping-_-googlebase-_-D27X-_-100685853
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs..._mmc=shopping-_-googlebase-_-D27X-_-100685853
I think you are a little confused. It's not a flip on and off. It's one ballast running more then one light. BTW that thing is junk. Installed two by customer request and both crapped out. One kept reducing time daily by 5 minutes. The other one just stopped turning on the light. Could be just coincidence.
madpenguin
Member
Anything GE is junk.... And yea, that timer has nothing to do with a flip/flop. If your going the heavy duty timer route to just control a light cycle, then go with Intermatic. Those things run forever.
Mr. Stinky
Member
ok, thats fine, you guys can play the moron card if you like. shortens the day by 5 minutes each day? sorry, but no...
i have 3 of them and they work well. they most certainly do provide a flip function. maybe you should go buy one so you can understand me. its a shame so many assholes without a clue are on this site bashing those of us who actually grow. if you owned one of these, you would not be disagreeing with me. im here posting my REAL experience. not some bullshit ive made up by reading crap on a pot forum. would you like to explain to me how it "doesnt flip" when it is doing that exact thing as we speak? maybe you could explain to this timer that it is doing something impossible? it is one ballast running more than one light, yes you are right, except one is on from 11am to 11pm, and THEN THE TIMER FLIPS and the other light is on from 11pm till 11am. if you had actually ever had one in your hands, you would agree with me. id be willing to bet you have never installed anything for anyone.
they arent even made by GE. its just the name on the box, but im sure you knew that already. maybe since you know so much about them, you could tell us who actually makes the board? i bet not
and intermatics dont run forever. i have had 2 short out. they break just like everything else.
in simple terms, metaphorically, im lookin at the sky...i see its blue, and im telling you my findings....you are telling me im wrong, and its actually something else. obviously, you either cannot see, or you have never looked at the sky
i have 3 of them and they work well. they most certainly do provide a flip function. maybe you should go buy one so you can understand me. its a shame so many assholes without a clue are on this site bashing those of us who actually grow. if you owned one of these, you would not be disagreeing with me. im here posting my REAL experience. not some bullshit ive made up by reading crap on a pot forum. would you like to explain to me how it "doesnt flip" when it is doing that exact thing as we speak? maybe you could explain to this timer that it is doing something impossible? it is one ballast running more than one light, yes you are right, except one is on from 11am to 11pm, and THEN THE TIMER FLIPS and the other light is on from 11pm till 11am. if you had actually ever had one in your hands, you would agree with me. id be willing to bet you have never installed anything for anyone.
they arent even made by GE. its just the name on the box, but im sure you knew that already. maybe since you know so much about them, you could tell us who actually makes the board? i bet not
and intermatics dont run forever. i have had 2 short out. they break just like everything else.
in simple terms, metaphorically, im lookin at the sky...i see its blue, and im telling you my findings....you are telling me im wrong, and its actually something else. obviously, you either cannot see, or you have never looked at the sky
is
I'm done. Guys like this should be banned from the forums. Nobody has called anybody names. Just educating each other then you have some guy pulling this shit. Your right I have never installed one and I have never plugged a thing into a wall. I just a little girl sitting behind some computer chatting with pot heads. You are truley cluesless in commincation and facts. I feel sorry for you. I done with this board. If the moderator can't control guys like this. Call them thread busters. Why bother. Great work.
Good luck to you all and thanks to you who actually provided some reel facts, and data. I'm off to another forum to make up some more facts since I have nothing better to do.
Mr. Stinky
Member
total bullshit....i am the one who posted facts. i posted that you can do this with this particular product, and you come on telling the world how im confused and that it doesnt do what i say and that its junk
so what other specs would you need than a DPDT controlled by a timer? the set handles 30+amps. sure, it will eventually wear out. everything does. it works. its not 150 bucks. thats all im sayin.
on edit:
now that ive skimmed thru this thread, i wish i had never even posted in this thread. it was a nitpick fight from about page 3. forget it. if anyone wants any more info about that timer, pm me. sorry fellas for jumping in your shitslinging contest without looking first...
then another poster comes on and tells me i dont know anything again. this is nonstop on this forum. every time someone posts up their experience, 40 assholes pile on. if you arent one of those kids, and ive completely misread your post, then im truely sorry. but you are wrong in your post above, and when that leaves me looking like im an idiot, im gonna speak up. you can understand that im sure. i certainly wasnt threadbusting when i posted my personal experience with a related product, now was i? if you 2 would like to remove your posts about how im an idiot, id gladly remove my retort
avenger said:
so what other specs would you need than a DPDT controlled by a timer? the set handles 30+amps. sure, it will eventually wear out. everything does. it works. its not 150 bucks. thats all im sayin.
on edit:
now that ive skimmed thru this thread, i wish i had never even posted in this thread. it was a nitpick fight from about page 3. forget it. if anyone wants any more info about that timer, pm me. sorry fellas for jumping in your shitslinging contest without looking first...
madpenguin
Member
total bullshit....i am the one who posted facts. i posted that you can do this with this particular product, and you come on telling the world how im confused and that it doesnt do what i say and that its junk
then another poster comes on and tells me i dont know anything again. this is nonstop on this forum. every time someone posts up their experience, 40 assholes pile on. if you arent one of those kids, and ive completely misread your post, then im truely sorry. but you are wrong in your post above, and when that leaves me looking like im an idiot, im gonna speak up. you can understand that im sure. i certainly wasnt threadbusting when i posted my personal experience with a related product, now was i? if you 2 would like to remove your posts about how im an idiot, id gladly remove my retort
so what other specs would you need than a DPDT controlled by a timer? the set handles 30+amps. sure, it will eventually wear out. everything does. it works. its not 150 bucks. thats all im sayin.
on edit:
now that ive skimmed thru this thread, i wish i had never even posted in this thread. it was a nitpick fight from about page 3. forget it. if anyone wants any more info about that timer, pm me. sorry fellas for jumping in your shitslinging contest without looking first...
Wow... Are you OK man? Havin' a bad day or something? I'll admit I assumed that was a single throw standard water heater timer.
Avenger told you who makes the timer and I'm telling you it's only rated for 277v.
No one called you an idiot but you started calling people assholes.
BTW, there really hasn't been any shit slinging on this thread. Atleast not between the controversy of whether or not to switch both conductors on a flip. It's been a fairly good natured debate that has cleared some controversy and provided alot of information. That's what these forums are for.
It's obvious something else has happened to you today and you just snapped. It happens to all of us. Sorry your not feeling well. If this isn't the case and your just prone to blow up on people then you should really try to stay off public forums.
And if anyone wants any more info on the timer, all they have to do is read the spec sheet. And no, it's not appropriate for a flip. Not unless you like rolling the dice.
http://www.jascoproducts.com/suppor...nager/upload/15087-15207-56922-Manual-eng.pdf
100PoundHarvest
New member
If I were to use 3 of these, could I have all 3 timers plugged into the same power strip or would I need to have each timer on a different outlet?
bostrom155
Active member
tag
LoudBlunts
Member
avenger and madpenguin.....yall still care to play?
Mind me picking your brains?
Mind me picking your brains?
I can help but not getting into pissing match. I have been using quite a few relays in recent builds.
And just for clarification you can not use the GE timer at Homedepot for flip flop as previous spatted off. It's not rated for 600 volt. You could use the timer and run two sperate ballast but not on the out going side of the ballast.
BTW I had another GE fail. Took pictures this time so if someone pops off I can show him proof. Peace to all.
You can PM me if you like.
