Finishing times, Photoperiod, Latitude, and how it all works!!

[Guest]

I have another observation to note from the 45 deg area. I have found that when planting clones early, say May 24. Freshly rooted clones do better in the long run than say 1 foot plants. Plants grown past the just rooted stage indoors never take the change of light well. They do not flower right away and tend to take just as long to finish but just never get as big and heavy. Monster plants for me always come from the little clones put directly outside. To end up with bigger plants the only alternative has been to put them out earlier, say Early May but protect them with a cold frame. Seems to me they need to get their schedule correct from the start or they get confused.

Unless of course the plants are put out late after solstice then they go strait to flowering and the bigger the plant you put outside the better. Seems like that is equator style planting for us northern growers, except there would be no time before frost for sativas to finish.

 

[BACKCOUNTRY]

Mr. Growitall- Since you are putting alot of input in here, I think I will ask you a few questions so we all know where you are comming from.

You are obviously growing near 45*N, correct?

What strain(s) are you making your observations with? I've seen you mention M39 mostly, any others?

You seem to only mention clones, have you done anything with immature seedlings outdoors?

What light cycle do you keep your mother plants on?

 

[Guest]

You know BC, My friend, I think you are right about the THC. I grow grapes, tomatoes and other fruits, and the key to RIPENING fruit is unobstructed sun. Ovoiding shade of trees and other things on the ripening fruit. If sugar is an ingredient to making THC it would be a fact. This part I am not sure of. And of course, you are only making the highest THC that is genetically possible, not increasing it.

When our friends in the tropcs had those wonderful bonsais they were not started indoors. Indeed Chaman advised Paz that if he made an indoor veg room he could grow indica doms. Chaman is funny, he doesnt seem to have a lot of use for indica doms and makes funof them saying, "One whole plant when harvested would only last him a day if he could stay awake long enough to smoke it all".

If one plants clones as opposed to seeds the clones are mature, sexually and mentally. If a clone is the same size as a seed plant is weeks ahead of the seed plant in it metamorphysis from veg to flower.

Keep up the good fight everyone!

 

[BACKCOUNTRY]

Yes, by the time a seedgrown plant it big enough to be cloned, it is usually old enough to be considered sexually mature, or if the mother was a clone herself, then the clone in question would be quite mature.

Observations of my own plants this year have led me to some new conclusions about maturity in seed grown plants.
In the past, the consensus on seedgrown plants was that after about 7-10 weeks, most indica and indica dominated strains will reach maturity and gain the ability to bloom if the light conditions are right, most of my plants seem to take about 9 weeks to shown sex under short light cycles.
But beyond that, I believed that plants of the same strain growing under natural lightcycles outdoors will bloom at about the same speed whether they were 9 weeks old, or 9 months old.

Here are my observations this year
------------------------------------------------------------------------

This year I started my first plants in mid-febuary under a 16/8 lightcycle, and I placed them out in a greenhouse when the natural light cycle reached about 13/11 in late March. By this time the plants were just starting to approach maturity age. By the time these plants reached enough maturity to bloom, the light cycle was gaining light fast enough that they did not go into full bloom, but simply showed sex(meaning the plants knew that it was still spring, and not fall, and held back true blooming).

I also started a large generation of seeds in mid-March, these were also grown under 16/8 lightcycles indoors, and were placed in the greenhouse in mid-April, a month after the older ones, the light cycle was @14/10.
When this second generation was finally mature(9 weeks, mid May)the light cycle was @15/9, and pretty much none of this generation showed sex at all.

Now that bloom season is here, I have noticed some differences between the first and second generations:

#1. Many of the plants from the first generation started blooming 1-3 weeks earlier than the second generations, and ahead of the normal expected bloom times based on experience from past seasons.

#2. Early blooming seems especially strong in the largest plants of the first generation, but I can't think of a reason why?

These observations seem to shake my assumptions about mature plants outdoors, and my assumption that beyond a couple months of age, plants will react to blooming the about the same whether they are 2 months old or 8 months old.

We will see if this actually means a earlier harvest however.................

 

[Lambsbreath]

I was told by Reeferman a few months ago that at the equator all plants will flower right away... sativas that are native to that kind of photoperiod/region flower right away but due to The Sativa Stretch, they'll always get much bigger than any indica would... but that they never get full-size like the monster sativas we get far from the equator.

Is that not correct?

Well, If Reeferman told you this, he is WRONG, Pure sativas will veg for months before they start showing sex even on the equator.

We are able to grow monster sativas trees as well but dominant indicas trees never , so with indicas we just plant more as we can sow seeds anytime of the year

We can also put the indicas under light for 15 days to 2 months under ecolite and then put them outdoor to flower automatically anytime.

As Backcountry said the pure local sativas flowering starting time is not determined by day light time ( as it's almost 12H all around the year) but more by the sativas genetic, temps, rains and season ,age of the plant .

One Love from the amazonian Jungle.

Blue Mystic lowrider style



California orange bud Cola

 

[Dignan]

THanks, Lambs! Great info. Reef may very well be wrong.

I asked the question in regard to his most recent field of plants, which were predominantly sativa strains but all were well under 4-5' tall and I asked how he kept sativas so small. He said that's just how they grow in equatorial locations.

 

[BACKCOUNTRY]

Dignan- Do you know which strain(s) the Sativas were? Do you know the latitude he was growing them at?

The autoflowering equatorial sativas I was speaking of were rumored to be from Thailand and the Congo region of Africa, deep equatorial.

Perhaps Reefermans strains were from regions further from the equator? I do have to say that the rumored tropical auto-flowering sativas are just one mention I heard from long ago, I have since never dug up evidence that they do exist, although I do know that they do grow big plants in tropical locations, I remember reading of Nigerian plants that went up to 20', and have seen many pics of large sativas grown in Thailand and Vietnam.

But I've never grown a pure sativa, let alone a equatorial sativa, so I don't know.....

 

[Dignan]

Dignan- Do you know which strain(s) the Sativas were? Do you know the latitude he was growing them at?

.

Not sure of the location... Spain somewhere, purportedly.

The strains were a little of everything he offered this last seed run/harvest. Runs the gamet, everything from full indica to full sativa.

Outdoor growing is such a squirrel... very hard to nail down. Every situation is SO drastically different from the next, with so many variables. I love discussing/pondering/pontificating/hypothesizing but the more I grow and learn, the more I think that each man/woman has to be THE expert in THEIR own area and circumstances.

Many of the things I've learned run in direct opposition to the advice I received from accomplished outdoor "gurus" here and at AN forums, etc. They told me X couldn't be done or Y wouldn't work or "good luck man... you'll be carrying 18 gallons of water a day!" ... but my own experimentation proved them wrong. They weren't "wrong" of course... they were wrong for my situation, but right in their situation.

But I ramble...

 

[BACKCOUNTRY]

First, I need to point out that the furthest southern tip of Spain is only about 36 degrees north, which is still a ways from tropical. Compare San Francisco California at 38 degrees north and also consider that most of the southern 1/3 of the USA lays below 36 degrees north.

Yep, the main theme of my time on OG and ICmag seems to be showing the stark differences between growing conditions not only across the USA, but around the world. It rains more in some places, it rains less in others, harvest comes earlier in some places, later in others, etc etc. the total possible combonations are endless.

In indoor growing it is easy to compare growing conditions of someone growing in southern California and someone growing in Norway or Alaska, because the growers control the enviroment.
But for outdoor growers, it can be so different from place to place, helping each-other can become difficult, and often I see growers making the mistake of trying to directly compare two grows in vastly different areas of the world. Nature is often in complete control when it comes down to it.

 

[Guest]

Dig, Indeed there are so many variables in growing Anything, and Photoperiod only being one of them. A term that I learned in growing grapes for wine is Mirco-climates. Indeed that term is reused in some in these forums as well. Altidude, Soil, rainfall, resistance to virus or pest, mold, and types or condition of micronutrients all come together in the final outcome of a plant. One has to almost be a master of his domain and years of experience to know what is best for his circumstances. Looking at Butte's outdoor grow you can see first time growers that live in his community that are developing fantastic results, where he feels that even with all of his learning and experience he is falling short. Growing and learning is a journey and must be enjoyed just for that. It is like boating, when you are in a motor boat you are heading somewhere, but in a sailing boat you are already there.

 

[Dignan]

First, I need to point out that the furthest southern tip of Spain is only about 36 degrees north, which is still a ways from tropical. Compare San Francisco California at 38 degrees north and also consider that most of the southern 1/3 of the USA lays below 36 degrees north.

My geography is obviously lacking. I was just going on what Reeferman said when I asked, "Why are your sativas so small? Did you plant them late?" The thread's over at RMS forums. Or maybe it was here in Reeferman's forum before the most recent Cannabis Egos Explosion 2007. LOL

(Sorry for kinda throwing this photoperiod thread off-topic, btw BC.)

 

[Guest]

Backcountry, to answer your questions...

You are obviously growing near 45*N, correct? yes, my observations are based on the 45*N.

What strain(s) are you making your observations with? I've seen you mention M39 mostly, any others? Northern lights, pluton, and many other hybrids.

You seem to only mention clones, have you done anything with immature seedlings outdoors? no, never...only old plants.

What light cycle do you keep your mother plants on? always 24 hour light, clone under 24 hour light, put them outside as soon as they can be hardened off.

 

[BACKCOUNTRY]

Dig, Indeed there are so many variables in growing Anything, and Photoperiod only being one of them. A term that I learned in growing grapes for wine is Mirco-climates.

I do agree that micro-climates are important, and that there are many more variables than photperiod involved in growing, however, photoperiod, and how your cannabis plants genetic react to it are the primary factors in determining when your non-autoflowering plants will start blooming, and when they will finish, nothing else will have much affect(if any) on determining this.

I would like to steer off the tropical topicals , unless more folks who live there have input of how various cannabis genetics preform there.
I'd like to insted throw a hypothetical question out to the community.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lets say I were to give seeds from my OR95 strain to freinds living in Vancouver, BC and Houston, TX, how would this strain behave in those areas? Would it finish earlier or later than it does for me? Would they start blooming earlier or later in a best case scenerio? (Sorry, I do not actually trade seeds for security reasons.)

OR95 starts to show bloom around July 21 at earliest(14h40m Day length, 15h45m including twilight) and finishes around October 10th at the earliest (11h15m Day length, 12h15m including twilight)

----- Houston, TX 29.7°N--------Humbolt county, CA 40° N------Eugene, OR 44.1°N--------Vancouver,BC 49.2°N

Dec 21--10h 14m/11h 07m------------9h 22m/10h 23m--------------8h 52m/9h 58m--------------7h53m/9h 27m

Jan 21--10h 33m/11h 24m------------9h 51m/10h 49m--------------9h 26m/10h 30m------------8h 54m/10h 05m

Feb 21--11h 19m/12h 07m-----------10h 58m/11h 53m-------------10h 46m/11h 45m-----------10h 31m/11h 36m

Mar 21--12h 58m/12h 56m-----------12h 10m/13h 04m-------------12h 11m/13h 09m-----------12h 13m/13h 16m

Apr 21--13h 03m/13h 52m-----------13h 29m/14h 25m-------------13m 44m/14h 45m-----------14h 04m/15h 12m

May 21--13h 45m/14h 57m-----------14h 31m/15h 33m-------------14h 45m/16h 06m-----------15h 34m/16h 53m

Jun 21--14h 03m/14h 57m-----------15h 57m/16h 05m-------------15h 30m/16h 43m-----------16h 14m/17h 40m

Jul 06--13h 58m/14h 52m-----------15h 00m/16h 06m-------------15h 22m/16h 34m-----------16h 04m/17h 28m

Jul 21--13h 45m/14h 57m-----------14h 31m/15h 33m-------------14h 45m/16h 06m-----------15h 34m/16h 53m

Aug 06--13h 26m/14h 17m-----------14h 09m/15h 10m-------------14h 24m/15h 29m-----------14h 53m/16h 06m

Aug 21--13h 03m/13h 52m-----------13h 29m/14h 25m-------------13m 44m/14h 45m-----------14h 04m/15h 12m

Sep 06--12h 36m/13h 24m-----------12h 53m/13h 48m-------------12h 58m/13h 57m-----------13h 09m/14h 14m

Sep 21--12h 10m/12h 56m-----------12h 10m/13h 04m-------------12h 11m/13h 09m-----------12h 13m/13h 16m

Oct 06--11h 43m/12h 31m-----------11h 32m/12h 27m-------------11h 28m/12h 26m-----------11h 21m/12h 25m

Oct 21--11h 19m/12h 07m-----------10h 58m/11h 53m-------------10h 46m/11h 45m-----------10h 31m/11h 36m

Nov 06--10h 52m/11h 42m-----------10h 13m/11h 11m-------------10h 00m/11h 01m------------9h 35m/10h 43m

Nov 21--10h 33m/11h 24m------------9h 51m/10h 49m--------------9h 26m/10h 30m------------8h 54m/10h 05m

Dec 21--10h 14m/11h 07m------------9h 22m/10h 23m--------------8h 52m/9h 58m-------------7h 53m/9h 27m

 

[Guest]

If planted just past last frost (in BC) at a "just rooted state" (from "old clone" or seed) or straight from seed into ground, I would say they would flower around the same time as the TX plants. The plants in TX would end out bigger than the ones in BC, also the TX plants would be ready later and would have been most likely been planted earlier. TX plants would yeild more than BC plants.

If planted as "old plant" (from seed or clone) of say 2 feet hight (grown indoors on 24/0 or 18/6 light), the plants in BC would flower a bit before the TX plants (and above scenario) and yield less than the above scenario. I'm not sure how much the TX plants would yield...perhaps more then the previous scenario. Although if planted in this manner after solstice I would think that the BC plants would be ready long before the TX. Perhaps the yield gap between areas would be smaller in this case.

Also, if fed according to plant needs, flowering, in either of above cases would be earlier then if under fed. Also, if there is cold the BC area short after solstice, the plants would mature quicker.

Furthermore, any shock to the plants before solstice would cause a later flowering time, and any shock after solstice before flowering would cause an earlier flowering and harvest. Any shock after solstice in flowering would cause drastic loss of yield and possibly a later harvest.

There are also an infinit number of variants that could come into play. There lies the mistery of nature's harmony.

 

[BACKCOUNTRY]

I believe a mature plant, like a clone, would probably bloom and mature in August/early sept in TX, but I wasn't really asking about clones, I'm asking about seedlings.

I believe seeds(OR95) started in mid April under natural sunshine in TX would start blooming not long after they reach maturity, in late June, and would finish by the 2nd or 3rd week of Sept.

I also believe that they would finish around Oct 17-23 in Vancouver.

I think the shorter overall sunlight in TX would make for a bit earlier harvest, and I do believe getting your timing right starting your seeds would be important to prevent too much premature blooming. I believe timing the seeds so that they will mature just before or around the solstice would be the best option to try and squeeze as much veg time as possible before the buds get too commited.

Does anyone from TX, or Florida/deep south have any input here?? What are your experiences growing Indicas and Indica dominated hybrids?

 

[Guest]

Well in Texas the photoperiod is generally more subtle than in BC. That subtlety is what would need to be nailed down with a specific genetic. What exactly does the plant require to trigger. You say in Oregon that the genetic starts to flower in July 21, so if you compared that amount of daylight to an equal amount in Texas that would maybe tell you the day it could start to bloom there. However, according to you chart you never reach 15h22m in Teaxas, so it would probably be when the line is crossed there, some time in Early July, about three weeks sooner.

 

[guest123]

I do agree that micro-climates are important, and that there are many more variables than photperiod involved in growing, however, photoperiod, and how your cannabis plants genetic react to it are the primary factors in determining when your non-autoflowering plants will start blooming, and when they will finish, nothing else will have much affect(if any) on determining this.

I would like to steer off the tropical topicals , unless more folks who live there have input of how various cannabis genetics preform there.

i live in the tropics and yes reeferman is wrong ... we can grow huge plants in the tropics , up to 6 inches of growth a day .... that makes for big plants ...
it is the ideal environment most of the time for cannabis ...
indica will not grow big , but it grows well in the right season ...
with the right seeds one could harvest 3 times in a year , or as many times as u planted ...
i grow a variety of strains , so finishing times go from oct , to april/may .... i will be harvesting herb all those months continually .... as well as replanting ...

 

[greensouth7]

Pretty far south

Pretty far south

I am lucky enough to live just miles from the southermost point in the states. I can grow year round hear. I just veg plants under a 400 halide for 4 or 5 weeks & then set outside. I usually harvest plants every 6 or 7 weeks. Ya gotta love a subtropical climate !!!!!

 

[BACKCOUNTRY]

So I am assuming that most clones and mature seedlings will bloom almost as soon as they are put out in your tropical locations?

How long does it take indicas grown most or all of their lives outdoors, to start blooming?

 

[guest123]

So I am assuming that most clones and mature seedlings will bloom almost as soon as they are put out in your tropical locations?

How long does it take indicas grown most or all of their lives outdoors, to start blooming?

yes mostly clones are a waste of time here ,,,, unless they are veged indoors to a good sized plant first .. otherwise all u will get is a lollypop ....

indicas wont take long to show flower , not will they grow very long ... 50 days or so from seed to harvest is what id expect ,, yeild is very poor though ....