F1 Question

[EvilTwin]

Hi Owl Mirror,
I like your idea. We have the technology to do it too. It's just the legal issue that's holding things back.

Parrot owners have the option of sending in a young "blood feather" for genetic evaluation. It can then be compared to a database to be sure that bird is what the breeder claims it is.

I used to raise birds and had a few done. Test wasn't even that expensive.
Peace,
ET

 

[Owl Mirror]

Hi Owl Mirror,
I like your idea. We have the technology to do it too. It's just the legal issue that's holding things back.

Parrot owners have the option of sending in a young "blood feather" for genetic evaluation. It can then be compared to a database to be sure that bird is what the breeder claims it is.

I used to raise birds and had a few done. Test wasn't even that expensive.
Peace,
ET

Hello, yeah I may be new to all this but, I must say all these wild names of crosses between this and that just leads to confusion. At least in my mind.

I would love to become a true breeder some day. I'm just not so certain the reward should be in being able to market a cool sounding name.

Perhaps Marijuana should be known by the long/lat it originates from?
Like the seeds I obtained for the future, Nepal is at Lat 28 & Ethiopia is at Lat 8. The name could be 28S x 8S. I know, not as exciting as Black Nepalese ;>}

The one thing that I've been most hesitant about buying seeds is the unknown.
Sure, the ad's are filled with salivating descriptions of dripping THC cola's that sparkle under the moonlight but, what is it really and can I replicate what is advertised?

 

[kopite]

but the F5 will not be an IBL as it isn't breeding true for traits like height etc hence this F5 lot will show variation, although this might not be seen until the F7 stage

Hi Owl,

my thinking for this is pretty much like an F1, hence the F6 population will be sim to that of an F1 although not as vigorous, and then like in an F2 population the variance is there to see in the F7 lot.

Kopite

 

[Owl Mirror]

Hi Owl,

my thinking for this is pretty much like an F1, hence the F6 population will be sim to that of an F1 although not as vigorous, and then like in an F2 population the variance is there to see in the F7 lot.

Kopite

Oh, I know didn't mean to imply any negative by using your example.
I just was trying to say, it doesn't matter what number one gives something, it still will have variations. Even when grown consistently by the same individual through all generations. Now imagine putting those seeds in a newbies hands. Something that is considered an ILB in those hands may not breed as true as is implied due to environment and skill in growing.
Certainly an ILB growing under professional conditions won't produce an exact replica under a 60 watt CFL spiral bulb.

 

[kopite]

no negativity taken... I just don't explain myself well sometimes

 

[Charles Xavier]

Greetings

A preface: Genetic nomenclature is absolutely worthless to the average cultivator. It is simply not necessary to know or understand some of the concepts being discussed here in order to produce or choose seeds that produce outstanding product.

Far more attention should be placed on the details of 'dialing in' a particular cultivating environment, rather than whether a 'strain' is F2, IL, RIL, IX, BX, fn, whatever; Most mislabel anyways.

That being said: There are members (like GMT) who are interested in the subject and if a question is asked, it's comforting to know that a reasonably sound answer can be expected and provided.

So:

In order for the phenotype expression to be significantly different to the general population, isn't it necessary for the individual to either posess a significantly different genetic coding in at least one gene or experience a significantly different environment?...GMT

No; that's a misconception. A difference of degrees in an environment, slight differences in nutrient ratios, or small differences in coding all result in "significant" difference in expression.

In the end I decided everything from an indian x african elephant to a haze x afghani to be technically incrosses, with only things like genes from a jellyfish going into a monkey to be an F1 lol....GMT

Yes, quite droll; but not quite complete. This is the most important of the criteria:

1) A specimen displaying an uncommon trait is selected (isolated) from an inbred population.

All examples cited would produce F1 because you're crossing two distinct populations.

So for a population to be separated, is there a method for deciding when it becomes a separate breed/species? ie. what makes a yellow and black labradors, labradors rather than spaniels etc?...GMT

Not a method per say, but the breeder and their peers determine what constitutes a breed. The differences between Black and Yellow Labradors are less, weighed against the similarities. Standards (traits) for the breed are firmly established and differ significantly enough from the standards of Spaniels to warrant distinction.

What makes our stable purple line and our stable fast line the same population, rather than separate populations. What is it that makes that an incross?...GMT

The Purple and Early Afghans, retain all the other traits associated with the original inbred, true breeding, Afghan cultivar of our example; traits which makes this Afghan cultivar distinct from other cultivars.

Think of it as a file folder: No additional genetic information (new files) were introduced to the population (folder), rather the filling information already present (potential genotypes), were sorted and categorized and colour coded for easy reference and finding (isolated [line bred] phenotypic expressions).

What I'm asking is where is the cut off point, how many differences are necessary or how much time has to pass for 1 population separated by expression or distance to be considered 2 separate populations? Is there an established method of saying, "this now meets the criteria for a new species/breed/line/population"?....GMT

When the sum of the differences (in terms of number and/or significance) is greater than that of the similarities.

Sincerely,
Charles.

 

[Owl Mirror]

Greetings

A preface: Genetic nomenclature is absolutely worthless to the average cultivator. It is simply not necessary to know or understand some of the concepts being discussed here in order to produce or choose seeds that produce outstanding product.

Far more attention should be placed on the details of 'dialing in' a particular cultivating environment, rather than whether a 'strain' is F2, IL, RIL, IX, BX, fn, whatever; Most mislabel anyways.

That being said: There are members (like GMT) who are interested in the subject and if a question is asked, it's comforting to know that a reasonably sound answer can be expected and provided.

~snip~
Sincerely,
Charles.

Thanks Charles!

I guess this topic is akin to mentioning of Pi
The common person automatically thinks of something to eat ;>}
It isn't something that has much meaning in average everyday life, although we are surrounded by examples.

 

[GMT]

Hi Kopite, I answered in your rep, but I should put it up really incase I'm wrong or someone has an alternative point of view. I'd say that the use of both f and S to denote seeds from a selfed girl are acceptable, though while f can mean many types of breeding possabilities the S can only be used in one case and therefore the usage of S would give more info to the grower. What's more, S is already in wide usage, whereas the usage of f is still causing problems now to get it right, so in the case of selfed seeds, it is probably best if we continue to use the S for that. Though if one of the offspring that exhibits a certain trait is then subsequently selfed, then perhaps it would be better to switch to the f system of labeling the number of successive generations to have expressed the phenotype within the population.
Ok I expanded the answer I left in your rep lol.

Thankyou Charles. What did you make of my attempts to qualify when to use F f and now S, did I get close at all lol?

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Maybe answered and I missed it...
But how do we distinguish from selfs..and selfs? What I mean is, if I stress a female into producing stamen, what is the proper designation for progeny resulting from pollination of the stressed mother pollen donor... and how does that differ from the designation given to the progeny of that same pollen, but with a sister plant of the donor?

Or imagine a hermie pollinating itself, as well as some of it's sisters in the room. Are these all S1's? Nothing to distinguish these apart?

 

[GMT]

Hoose, I'd like to take a shot, like sitting an exam, I'll get marked later I'm sure.

If a girl pollinates herself, whether thats the same plant or a clone of that plant, then that is selfing. If one plant pollinates another plant, that is a cross. So, the seeds from the girl selfing herself, would be S (n+1), or f (n+1) (the choice being yours), and the seeds from her sister would be F (n+1) (with 2 being the lowest value since she is a sister) or f (F-1) or f1. Where f (F-1) the f# is one less than the F# when the same trait has been followed through all generations since the initial F1 cross. And S1 or f1 if this is the first generation of a new trait being bred with.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

I flower out two seeds of the same strain. One hermies and pollinates both itself and the other plant. So, the progeny of the hermie plant pollinating itself is a true S1? And the progeny from the other plant in the room (sister from same pack as hermie donor) is a cross? As in f1 cross?

Maybe it would be easier to tell what my less-than-learned thought pattern has been on this...
I have always considered that any sister plant that gets pollinated from either a hermie sister plant, or a chemically stressed sister plant, produced the true S1 generation. And I have always thought that there is really no true designation for the progeny of a hermie plant that pollinates itself.

I have also been under the impression that a femminized seed produced from a plant pollinating itself can lead to a genetic dead end, whereas the progeny of it's sisters from the same pollen do not. And if my thinking is correct on this...then the designations we use to distinguish these is of mucho importance.

 

[Owl Mirror]

hoosierdaddy, if I may ask, say I have two female plants from the same seed batch.
If I wanted to make seeds, would I simply pull one of the plants out of the closet overnight and subject it to increased light, then place her back in the closet once the lights come back on? Maybe repeat that process a few nights in a row?
Then allow this Hermie to pollinate the other female?
If that did work, should I harvest and paint the other plant or simply allow the pollen to fly on it's own?
Would it help to cover the plant with a black garbage bag except for a few select branches in order to limit the Hermie sacks to one location?
I'm thinking that way, I could cut off those branches once I get my sacks and not pollinate the mother.

 

[GMT]

Hi Owl, perhaps one of these threads would either answer those questions, or be better suited to answering them.

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=130152

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=130749


Hoos, "And the progeny from the other plant in the room (sister from same pack as hermie donor) is a cross? As in f1 cross?
" I'd actually call that an F2 to be honest.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

OK, I'm with ya, GMT on the F2. And this is where the rub comes in I think...if I am told the lineage of a seed, and it is said to be an F2 of a certain strain, I have no way of knowing if it is a femminized seed or regular bred.
My assumption is that I have a femmed seed when I see S1 described.

(SF2?)

Seems already confusing enough what with different niches using different nomenclature.

 

[Owl Mirror]

Hi Owl, perhaps one of these threads would either answer those questions, or be better suited to answering them.

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=130152

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=130749


Hoos, "And the progeny from the other plant in the room (sister from same pack as hermie donor) is a cross? As in f1 cross?
" I'd actually call that an F2 to be honest.

Thanks, will take a look

 

[OG bub]

awesome thread folks. lota great info in here!

peace, bub.

 

[CaptainFantasy]

I have read this thread very informative, thanks. So I had a recent mistake that I am wondering what will be the end results. I been growing some Hawaiian Snow from fem seed. I found a seed in my diesel sack and got a cali mist seed, grew both out to sex them in the same cab as the HS. Went out of town for the weekend came home and the both popped male. While I was out they had a 3way. They both pollinated the the innocent girl resulting in beaner laced buds. What will the beans turn out to be? Will only one of the males pass along their genetics?

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Capt, assuming that both males produced viable pollen...
Every hair that the pollen from the nycd touches will produce HS x NYCD, and every hair that gets touched with the cali mist will produce HS x CM seeds.
If both pollen specs hit a hair at the same time, it will be a toss-up as to which one gets there first.
It will be almost impossible to tell which is which until you grow those seeds out and look.
Although depending on strains used, some seeds can look totally different than others, and it is possible to see a big difference in seeds coming from the same plant, but that doesn't always hold true.

 

[CaptainFantasy]

Thanks for that info Hoosier. I am growing few of them out we will see what happens. At least this mistake will learn me good and might have a tasty result.