F1 Question

[Charles Xavier]

Greetings OG bub

CX, nice to see ya again, its been a while!...OG bub

Too long brother....too long.
(I hope posting here means all is right in the world?)

great example.. but I just dont understand how inbreeding between phenos of a stable strain, could be anything other than inbreeding....OG bub

Inbreeding between phenotypes of a stable strain with the intent of creating a specimen that incorporates and expresses said phenotypes is the definition of an incross.

totally see what yer sayin tho. because if yer not breeding from an F1, "A x B", it wouldnt really be consistant to the "F" system either...so rightfully, the following gens could be tracked by "Ic/Ix...OG bub

Exactly.

Sincerely,
Charles.

 

[OG bub]

Greetings OG bub
Too long brother....too long.
(I hope posting here means all is right in the world?)

Sincerely,
Charles.

yeah man, things are good, thanks! n by the way, I dont think yer as rusty as you may so believe

be easy, n hope ta see you around more!

Peace, bub.

 

[GMT]

Hi Charles, great to see you around the boards.

Quick question:
Given that one plant does not know the contents of the DNA posessed by it's brothers and sisters, ie the population of it's line, What is the relevance of the relative frequency of its phenotype expression within it's line? What I mean is, how does the frequency of that phenotype within the line, affect the kids of that phenotype? What I'm asking is: If a red head breeds with someone with red/brown genes, how does the number of redheads in the neighbourhood affect their chances of having red headed kids? If the farmer takes his purple phenotype (using the original example), and breeds it with the offspring of his early finishing girl, (which he mated with a standard male from the general population (as he doesn't like the idea of starting a new line from feminised seeds)), why would the offspring be affected differently than by breeding that purple pheno into a line of trubreeding plants first, and then selecting one of them to mate with the early pheno x standard male cross? Clearly there would be an advantage to make a truebreeding early line, as you would get 100% early genes in that side of the cross rather than the 50:50 early to standard combo, but in the purple side, the genetic and phenotype expression of what you wish to breed with are present, so why would the frequency of its pressence within its own population affect the frequency of its pressence in future populations decended from it in an artifical selection environment?

 

[Owl Mirror]

OK, I read this entire thread and ended up just as confused ;>}

Let me pose a question and perhaps the answer will illuminate this topic in my mind.

I have some Ethiopian Highland F2 (landrace) and some Nepali ? (landrace).
If they were bred together (hopefully in both directions) what would I call the offspring?
To carry this further, if I were to produce seeds (hopefully in both directions) what would I call the offspring of the result after breeding the new (2) seeds?

E (male) x N (female) and E (female) x N (male)

I ask because presumably both of these strains, although considered landrace, inevitably have been interbred among their individual local for millennia.

 

[Charles Xavier]

Greetings GMT

Again, thanks for the 'alert'.

Given that one plant does not know the contents of the DNA posessed by it's brothers and sisters, ie the population of it's line, What is the relevance of the relative frequency of its phenotype expression within it's line?...GMT

Nice question.

First: It can be argued that the plant does "know the contents of the DNA possessed by it's brothers and sisters" because in an inbred population no additional genetic material is introduced and there is a constant shift towards homogeneity. Therefore all the specimens should/would be relatively similar/familiar.

So an infrequent phenotype (our Early or Purple example) would be quite relevant, especially if it proves to be advantageous in some way to the plant in relation to a perspective selector.

What I mean is, how does the frequency of that phenotype within the line, affect the kids of that phenotype? What I'm asking is: If a red head breeds with someone with red/brown genes, how does the number of redheads in the neighbourhood affect their chances of having red headed kids?...GMT

On its own, allele frequency has little bearing on inheritance; i.e a neighborhood of redheads does not make your kids redheads.

However, allele frequency combined with line principles dictates a very high chance of exhibiting a specified trait in subsequent progeny; i.e you're a redhead or you carry the gene and you're breeding in a population rife with redheads and carriers, the likelihood of your offspring being redheaded is predictably high.

Take that a step further: nothing but redheads; your kids will definitely (yes, there are exceptions/anomalies) be redheaded, as well.

That's the purpose of line breeding until true: a reasonable expectation of what the future offspring will express.

If the farmer takes his purple phenotype (using the original example), and breeds it with the offspring of his early finishing girl, (which he mated with a standard male from the general population (as he doesn't like the idea of starting a new line from feminised seeds)), why would the offspring be affected differently than by breeding that purple pheno into a line of trubreeding plants first, and then selecting one of them to mate with the early pheno x standard male cross?...GMT

Because if the specimen is not true breeding for the trait, it can fail to manifest in an initial cross and all subsequent refinements derived from that cross.

The problem arises when traits are polygenic. They do not follow the simple pattern of Mendelian inheritance. So in order to establish the trait in a true breeding form a line bred population is created.

To reference an earlier post: there is absolutely nothing amiss with guessing. One could cross the first Purple with the first Early potentially resulting in an Early Purple, the point that was being made is, technically, that's not an incross.

An aside:
True breeding means:
Traits that distinguish a specimen or population are inherited by its progeny all the time, every time.

As stated: I'm rusty, so if further clarification is needed of if I've failed to address your query......

Sincerely,
Charles.

p.s. re: rep comment.

Let's say the field's been there ten (10) years; it's IL or F10 (one (1) generation per year).

Purple and Early show up. A cross produces IL or F11 (Fn+1 where n = 10) or f1 (where Purple X Early = P1 X p2; lower case because they were selected from within the same population).

C.X.

 

[GMT]

In order for the phenotype expression to be significantly different to the general population, isn't it necessary for the individual to either posess a significantly different genetic coding in at least one gene or experience a significantly different environment?

Thanks for the above explanations, the rep one I spent ages going round in circles in my mind. In the end I decided everything from an indian x african elephant to a haze x afghani to be technically incrosses, with only things like genes from a jellyfish going into a monkey to be an F1 lol. So for a population to be separated, is there a method for deciding when it becomes a separate breed/species? ie. what makes a yellow and black labradors, labradors rather than spaniels etc? What makes our stable purple line and our stable fast line the same population, rather than separate populations. What is it that makes that an incross? What I'm asking is where is the cut off point, how many differences are necessary or how much time has to pass for 1 population separated by expression or distance to be considered 2 separate populations? Is there an established method of saying, "this now meets the criteria for a new species/breed/line/population"?

 

[Owl Mirror]

I'm still trying to follow this conversation. It's quite a bit over my head.
While I am new to growing and I've been having problems, I am interested in this topic for future projects once I get more experience.
I heard something before and wonder if you could dispel it as myth or verify it as truth.

Say I have this Male and a Female which I breed and produce seeds.
If I breed those same plants again, I was told the resulting seeds will not be the same as the first batch, genetically. True or False ?

I guess that goes to the point that, I look nothing like my sister ;>}

I also would like to know about my previous question:
E (male) x N (female) and E (female) x N (male)
If I obtained seed stock from both breeding's, what should I refer to the offspring as,
if I grew them out and bred them again?

 

[GMT]

Hi Owl, I'll take a stab at that now, though my stab may well get corrected by someone.
NxE and ExN will both create F1 seeds. Crossing the 2 batches of F1s will create F2s or f1s, and I'm guessing it's up to you to choose to label with 1 or the other or both.

On your first question, the seeds produced will follow the same probabilities each time they are produced from the same parents, the actualities will be different in each seed.

 

[Owl Mirror]

Hi Owl, I'll take a stab at that now, though my stab may well get corrected by someone.
NxE and ExN will both create F1 seeds. Crossing the 2 batches of F1s will create F2s or f1s, and I'm guessing it's up to you to choose to label with 1 or the other or both.

On your first question, the seeds produced will follow the same probabilities each time they are produced from the same parents, the actualities will be different in each seed.

Thanks !
I guess these labels only mean something to the aficionado's but, I still like to know so I can speak the language ;>}
Do you see any difficulties in the cross I propose?
I got both packs from Seedbay, the Ethiopian is from a private breeder and he said these are F2. The Nepali, I was told were collected by someone named OldPink.

My original thought is I might create a strain that will grow outdoors at my latitude.

The latitude of Nepal is 28° 0' 0" N and the latitude of Ethiopia is 8° 0' 0" N
I live at latitude: 45° N
http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-maps/world-map-with-latitude-and-longitude.html

I read that this Nepali is hardy enough to actually finish after the first snow falls. I guess that trait is what caught my eye.

I don't really know if any of that plays a part in developing a strain, just seems like a good trait.

Well, I have plenty of time to learn more about this topic of breeding before I'm able to actually do something with it.
Thanks again for the answer.

 

[flat5th]

This shit always makes my head hurt.

I've tried several times to understand all this AA aa BB bb Ab Aa Ba Bb S1 F3 P1 IBL shit but i always end up spinning. And the fact that people seem to be using their own terms and definitions makes it even worse.

What i really want to know right now is -

I want to back up my strains. If i force them to hermie, will the resulting S1 seeds be a reliable batch of beans to get me back up and running in the future?

Also, I just cracked a handful of Serious Seeds Chronic, If i have a Male and a Female, should i cross them to get more Chronic seeds, or just self a female?

Thanks.
Fifth

 

[Owl Mirror]

This shit always makes my head hurt.

I've tried several times to understand all this AA aa BB bb Ab Aa Ba Bb S1 F3 P1 IBL shit but i always end up spinning. And the fact that people seem to be using their own terms and definitions makes it even worse.

What i really want to know right now is -

I want to back up my strains. If i force them to hermie, will the resulting S1 seeds be a reliable batch of beans to get me back up and running in the future?

Also, I just cracked a handful of Serious Seeds Chronic, If i have a Male and a Female, should i cross them to get more Chronic seeds, or just self a female?

Thanks.
Fifth

Hi Fifth, as you know I know nothing but, I did come across some interesting info somewhere out on the Internet that I saved for future reference.
Naturally, I have never tried this technique but, supposedly this is meant to convert a True Female clone in to a True MALE. It was said to be developed for breeding these clone-only strains. OK, I hope I can make it as clear as it was presented. I didn't save the link and only stripped out the pertinent advice.

a higher potassium concentration will give more males.
a lower humidity will give more males.
a higher temperature will give more males.
more red light will give more males.
Longer hours of light will give more males.

Apparently if you place a clone-only female clone in this environment, it converts to a true male plant.

I gather this means you need to dial in use of HPS lights (red) with a High Temp and Low Humidity, long light hours and a diet of high potassium.

I would imagine for someone really knowledgeable and with the proper equipment, this could prove to be quite the experiment.

I sure would like to hear back if anyone does try it and actually succeeds.

 

[EvilTwin]

Flat5th,
What you want to do is to force a single hermie and then use the pollen from that to pollinate your other non-hermed females. That's pretty much the way feminized seeds are made. Light pollution is the easiest way to herm a plant...turn some lights on for an hour or two in the middle of the dark cycle and you'll get a herm in less then a week. Pros often use a chemical trigger like Gibberetic acid (or something like that...guessed on the spelling) Main point is you don't want to use the pollen to pollinate the same plant the pollen came from. As I understand it, your risk of having hermie prone offspring is greater that way.

And Chronic is an IBL so YES, you can makes seeds and have them be reasonably true breeding. Depends on the stability of your particular strain.

Hope that helps...
ET

 

[flat5th]

Flat5th,
What you want to do is to force a single hermie and then use the pollen from that to pollinate your other non-hermed females. That's pretty much the way feminized seeds are made. Light pollution is the easiest way to herm a plant...turn some lights on for an hour or two in the middle of the dark cycle and you'll get a herm in less then a week. Pros often use a chemical trigger like Gibberetic acid (or something like that...guessed on the spelling) Main point is you don't want to use the pollen to pollinate the same plant the pollen came from. As I understand it, your risk of having hermie prone offspring is greater that way.

And Chronic is an IBL so YES, you can makes seeds and have them be reasonably true breeding. Depends on the stability of your particular strain.

Hope that helps...
ET

Excellent! Thank you VERY MUCH! I have been searching that info out for a long time and always end up in limbo buried among crazy breeding talk that I have yet to comprehend.

Collecting the Hermed pollen then hitting a true female with it...i never thought of that. Looks like i gotta pull out my breeding box tonight. I build it over a year ago for this exact purpose but never got the info until now.

thanks again EvilTwin.
Fifth

 

[EvilTwin]

Happy to help Fifth. Good luck with it and make sure you give your seeded plants the same attention as a regular blooming plant so that you get some nice healthy viable seeds. They like the P and K just like a non-seeded bloomer.
ET

 

[Owl Mirror]

Happy to help Fifth. Good luck with it and make sure you give your seeded plants the same attention as a regular blooming plant so that you get some nice healthy viable seeds. They like the P and K just like a non-seeded bloomer.
ET

Excellent advice, I can imagine myself letting the seeded plant go without, focusing more on those smokable buds. Thanks !

 

[DMXAK47]

ok can some one tell me what f3 are? is it that is how many times they inbred that same strain? are they worth buying and will they turn out like the parents?

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Male F2 meets Female F2, produces F3. F3 meets F3, produces F4.
Each generation the plants that serve as parents are selected for the traits the grower wants and likes. The selections being fewer and fewer until the line is inbred to a point of stability and symmetry. (IBL)

 

[GMT]

Given that we have seen F11s can also be labelled f1s under certain circumstances, and F2s can be f1s, could we perhaps simply say that anything which is bred from unrelated lines should be said to be F1s, inbred populations (sibling parents) be given the standard F n+1, and anything bred according to a particular phenotype within a population be it: itself, siblings, parents or very far relations from populations separated by distance, be classified as f #s, where the number represents the number of generations of offspring that have expressed that phenotype?

 

[kopite]

CX,

The farmer slapped his forehead, danced a jig and resolved to create a plant that not only retained all the traits the strain was known for, but also to be purple and early maturing. He decided to cross an Early female with a Purple male, both specimens selected from divergent line bred populations within the same inbred genome.



That's an Incross.

To me an incross is just 2 inbred lines (be they parallel).. they have been line bred for differing traits... but are both inbred lines, akin to DJ Shorts work...

F1 ---- F2 ---- F3 ---- F4 (BK, Purp, Sat)

F1 ---- F2 ---- F3 ---- F4 (Ind, green )

= F4xF4 = F5

but the F5 will not be an IBL as it isn't breeding true for traits like height etc hence this F5 lot will show variation, although this might not be seen until the F7 stage

GMT,

is it correct to use lower case f when refering to a selfed population or would you use S ? (seem to recall you mentioning it somewhere, maybe another thread.)

 

[Owl Mirror]

Wouldn't it be much simpler if each strain were supplied with it's pedigree like canines are followed ?
I've really tried to follow along on this discussion and, it seems that nobody is certain of anything.
See example:

but the F5 will not be an IBL as it isn't breeding true for traits like height etc hence this F5 lot will show variation, although this might not be seen until the F7 stage

I think it would be much easier if a pedigree were supplied since any claim can be challenged.
http://www.tangledroots.trinity8.com/files/images/pedigree chart1.jpg

BTW, I came across this computer program designed for the Marijuana breeder.
I don't know if you have seen it before but, I thought I would post it up for you to review.
http://velvet2k8.weebly.com/download.html
Sponsors : - Sensi Seeds - BlueHemp Seeds - Darwin Seeds -