F1 Question

[englishrick]

Truthfully, I don't know what the hell you're talking about. Removed? IL? Selfed vs inbred?

Why don't you just use the standard terminology so people understand...or is it just me?
ET

i like the words "Standard Terminology"

I think you got it right overall. I think tho, and have thought for a long time, that there needs to be a common understanding of definitions.

lots folks will take any pack of seeds, no matter the composition, make seeds with them, and call them F2's..... Ive watched this for many years... I glad this thread clears some of that up.

I might not entirely understand what you mean, englishrick, when you say paralell lines. so I wont elaborate on my opinion untill I do.. like you said, whats important is that we understand each other.

when we can do that, we will have much more valuable info to share.

peace, bub.

i think your spot on OGbub,,,,,,maybe IC should have an Index for Breeding Definitions...as Evil Twin called it "Standard Terminology"

lol @~Everyone who buys a pack of seeds thinks they can make F2`s~...its true ,the Terminology is all mixed up

sorry man ,,i hate sounding confusing,,,,,,,,,,,when i say Paralell Lines,,,,im talking about seperating an IBL or IL into 2 lines,,,then distancing the 2 lines to a point where an F1 can be made,,,,"is this right?,,can this be done?"

 

[Smokeone1]

so do F2's suck?? IF they do I'm pissed!! I just blew a 60 dollar order and a 50 dollar order!

 

[englishrick]

nahh man,,,,imo,,,F2`s or "incrossed lines" are wickid!!!!!!!!,,,,

one of the only good thing about F1 seeds is the STABILITY!,,,,...sometimes F1`s will look nothing like the mother and the extreemitys of the 2 lines becomes hidden in the F1,,,,,,,,if you want to see "Recessive Parent Phenos" you need to incross.....so imo "F2 are better than F1",,,

 

[englishrick]

everytime i think about Terms this post from Colina pops into my mind

i hope Colina dont mind me posting quotes

Keep using the S Rick , It clearly denotes the fact that we are moving at a rate more than twice than that of full-sib mating.

 

[EvilTwin]

nahh man,,,,imo,,,F2`s or "incrossed lines" are wickid!!!!!!!!,,,,

one of the only good thing about F1 seeds is the STABILITY!,,,,...sometimes F1`s will look nothing like the mother and the extreemitys of the 2 lines becomes hidden in the F1,,,,,,,,if you want to see "Recessive Parent Phenos" you need to incross.....so imo "F2 are better than F1",,,

Hi Englishrick,
See now, this post is an example of where I get hung up on your terminology.

In my understanding, an F-2 is the second generation of a cross. You do an F-1 with two unrelated parent plants, and then from those "offspring", you do a second cross...the F-2.

I'm not even sure what you mean by "incrossing?. Back-crossing is to take an offspring and cross it back to the parent. Is in-crossing the opposite? But F-2s involve neither...correct?

F-1s are a fairly stable expression of the parent genetics. Then F-2s start varying with phenotypes from the male extreme to the female extreme (wider phenotype expression).

F-2s are better if you want a wide variety of phenotypes. But I prefer a solid F-1 from stable parents since you then get strong "hybrid vigor".

So back to the thread starter...and sorry dude I forgot your name...the F-1 seeds you want to buy should give you similar plants (uniform expression) as long as the parents were a stable line (IBLs or landrace)
Peace,
ET

 

[LAMBS-BREAD]

How do u get a bx exactly?

 

[guest123]

Hi,

Let's use examples

We'll take an inbred line of Mexican cannabis (P1) and for the sake of simplicity label its genetic makeup AA.

Cross it to an inbred line of Afghan cannabis (P2), the genetics of which we'll label aa.

All of the progeny of this cross (F1) will be genotypically equal (Aa), and therefore very consistent.

Furthermore, the F1 (Aa) very often falls outside the range of the parental stock in regards to growth and productivity. This is a product of epistasis and heterozygosity.

This phenomenon is referred to as "hybrid vigor" or "heterosis".

In my opinion, it is important to note that these measurements are often taken on a larger field scale of plants propagated from seed. It is not necessarily the case of the F1 being dream plants larger than the Mexican, with fatter buds than the Afghan etc and in fact individual trait values often fall intermediate between the two parents. On a larger field scale the weaknesses of each original parental lines are masked and the progeny is superior mostly due in great part to this. The occurrence of runts and other weaknesses previously present in the parental lines are greatly diminished, resulting in a greater agricultural worth and productivity in the population of the F1 generation.

This all sounds a whole lot more like corn than cannabis to me, large scale field measurements from seed etc. In fact modern cannabis is more and more often propagated asexually in the form of clones, and so imo due to this, the value placed on F1's is greatly weakened and overrated. Not to mention as previously stated, the term is highly abused in todays canna-breeding scene anyways, and many so called F1's are nothing of the sort.

Let's move on to the F2 and later generations as this is where things get much more interesting. In the F2 population (F1 x F1 - from above), genes segregate and recombine to result in the dream plants mentioned previously. That is, some plants will fall outside the extreme genotypic values of the original parental lines. Taller and branchier than the Mexican, fatter, earlier, and more resinous than the Afghan etc. This phenomenon is referred to as "transgression". Indeed, this is prime clonal hunting grounds, and the logical starting point in the development of new superior inbred lines.

 

[Raco]

Good posts GMT,Doc and cannafriend

 

[englishrick]

hay Raco..were my post below grade?????

 

[englishrick]

Hi Englishrick,
See now, this post is an example of where I get hung up on your terminology.

In my understanding, an F-2 is the second generation of a cross. You do an F-1 with two unrelated parent plants, and then from those "offspring", you do a second cross...the F-2.

I'm not even sure what you mean by "incrossing?. Back-crossing is to take an offspring and cross it back to the parent. Is in-crossing the opposite? But F-2s involve neither...correct?

F-1s are a fairly stable expression of the parent genetics. Then F-2s start varying with phenotypes from the male extreme to the female extreme (wider phenotype expression).

F-2s are better if you want a wide variety of phenotypes. But I prefer a solid F-1 from stable parents since you then get strong "hybrid vigor".

So back to the thread starter...and sorry dude I forgot your name...the F-1 seeds you want to buy should give you similar plants (uniform expression) as long as the parents were a stable line (IBLs or landrace)
Peace,
ET

have i got this wrong??....

F1 is an Outcross,,,F2 is an Incross??

im confused to where my info is in-acurate...please help

i would say ,,increesing Hybrid vigor is a good thing to do,,,but when will vigor need to be increesed?,,,

"inbreeding depreshion" and "genetic drift" are interesting

 

[Heatwave]

hay Raco..were my post below grade?????

you're annoying as hell

 

[englishrick]

i was joking,,,

 

[EvilTwin]

have i got this wrong??....

F1 is an Outcross,,,F2 is an Incross??

im confused to where my info is in-acurate...please help

i would say ,,increesing Hybrid vigor is a good thing to do,,,but when will vigor need to be increesed?,,,

"inbreeding depreshion" and "genetic drift" are interesting

Rick,
I can't really say that you're wrong because you seem to have invented your own terms...which I don't understand. I Googled in-crossing and tried to find out what you mean by that but...nada. So I think you should drop that from your genetic vocabulary. It seems to have no meaning.

It's been pointed out several times what f-1s and F-2s are in this discussion already, so go back and re-read the thread for clarification.

Sorry man, but I have to agree with you...
I think you're confused. lol

And when will vigor need to be increased? I would say that since vigor is a good thing, any time you can increase it, you should. F-1's show the best expression of hybrid vigor which was explained nicely by Cannafriend.

Peace,
ET

 

[kopite]

I believe I saw Rezdog use the term IX or incross, and I'm at a loss to what it means...

here we go from his description

REZ-Chemdog IX-III
Breeder : Reservoir Seeds
Flowering Time : 65 Days
Environment : Indoor/Outdoor
Seeds Per Pack : 10

hemdog,line-bred into itself. Painstakingly selected,very,very refined,superior Chemdog genetics. Flowertime 65 days

Line bred into itself ? is that not a BC ?

 

[OG bub]

Incross. "IC or IX"
I would use the term incross, when breeding inwardly from Polyhybrid offspring, an accurate way to keep track of inbred generations that would not be represented by "filial" generations. IE, inbreeding two unrelated Hybrids..

an example:
I got SC Bx1 seed from CBF, I grew the seed and bred them resulting in SC Bx1 IC1. "incrossing that generation, the resulting would be SC Bx1 IC2..

thanks, peace, bub.

 

[OG bub]

Line bred into itself ? is that not a BC ?

Backcrossing, would be breeding a Hybrid father of (A x B) back to the original clone mother:
Bx1: A x (A x B)
Bx2: A x (A x (A x B))

etc.

whereas Incrossing would be breeding amongst the siblings in a Filial manner, but the makeup of would not cooperate with the F system beginning from IBLs......

If I said that right.....lol

 

[kopite]

an example:
I got SC Bx1 seed from CBF, I grew the seed and bred them resulting in SC Bx1 IC1. "incrossing that generation, the resulting would be SC Bx1 IC2..

BC1 X BC1 = B1F2 and then B1F3 etc

I would use the term incross, when breeding inwardly from Polyhybrid offspring,

or are you saying this is specific to polys ?

 

[OG bub]

BC1 X BC1 = B1F2 and then B1F3 etc

well, an F1 has allready been defined, it is the first filial generation of two unrelated stable parents (IBL/Landrace).
the first incross of a BX/BC offspring would not be the same as an F1. in the manner that you are crossing Into related lineage, that is not stable. and it will yeild you different results than an actual F1 Hybrid.

I think we are getting at the same point, just using different terminology.

or are you saying this is specific to polys ?

no, Im sayin the first generation cross of any unrelated HYBRIDS, is what I would consider a 1st outcross, following gens would be incross.

If its not understood, I just might not be making myself clear.. or we have different understandings/practice.

 

[joluvs2gro]

Wow, I will just have to go back and read this like 10 times to make sure I got it. These terms are thrown around alot and now I am actually starting to get an understanding of what they mean. Now another example/question. Let's say I get some beans in a trade that somebody made from f1's that they bought, they simply popped 10 seeds, took the strongest female and male, and made seeds with them, what are the seeds that they made called? Now whan I get these beans I am obviously going to make beans with them too, what are the ones that I make called?

 

[dragongrower]

why would it amaze you ? they contain 50% of each chosen parent and should be uniform.

Why not...? 1000 plants that grow the same, look the same and flower at the same time.. That amazes me..

But nice thread, has gotten some good info on a topic that is a bit tricky to understand...