Gray Wolf i wanted to ask if you know or will share the style of o ring Johnyar used, I have a few I'm gonna order and test but would be nice to have an exact model/manf/math etc before I machine the o ring seats, it would save me a few trips to my lake place to test its quite the drive, thanks in advanced.
Entry-level CO2 Extraction
- Thread starter Calimed
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Gray Wolf i wanted to ask if you know or will share the style of o ring Johnyar used, I have a few I'm gonna order and test but would be nice to have an exact model/manf/math etc before I machine the o ring seats, it would save me a few trips to my lake place to test its quite the drive, thanks in advanced.
I appreciate the info. thank you.
Sorry, I only know that he used PTFE o-rings, but he didn't mention any issues, so I infer he used a standard groove.
The design will include the standard gland used in o ring closures, I found some specs so now I'm just waiting on this seal company to find the right compound i will asume its a PTFE seal of some sort. Thanks for the insight.
Good to know thanks Mknasty. I'm pretty confident this first series of extractors using the o ring closure will workout just fine.
Oh how many times have I said such things myself in the past $60k+ of development costs. LOL
I must ask, are you just attempting to make some co2 oils for yourself? or are you intending to attempt to market your creation? I ask not out of interest but rather brotherly concern.
I wasted quite a bit of money chasing simple methods, that while capable of squeezing the sweet golden honey from lawn clipping, had absolutely no hope of ever being approved and certified for use. But to my credit or deficit, I am unsure which, Ive wasted nearly as much chasing appropriate methods that proved to suffer manufacturing affordability issues.
I only have $150.00 into this project, minus the orings. Should know more on the orings mid week. hopefully but not holding my breath. lol
I think whats going to work in my favor is all the money saved in the manufacturing costs as I'm doing all of it in house.
http://i.imgur.com/0uG1osa.jpg
that was the quote on my first certifiable chamber,
Id done 3 pipe style setups with different closure designs when I got serious and started chasing a design that I could manufacture at reasonable margins.
Sad thing is thats not the hard nor expensive part. Flow and recompression is. You need $8-15k in compressor behind $2-4k in haskel intensifier, or you can sink $20-30k into a cat/giant piston pump. Cheaper options just get you running until you trip and stumble over the accumulating maintenance costs.
But ultimately its all about intent. If you are trying to be the next big boy on the block, you are in a different game than if you are trying to become one cog in an open source supply chain, which is a very different game than if you are just looking to be the guy all your home grower buddies hit up to extract their harvests scrappings.
LOL now that ive yapped your ear off, ha, you should probably check out capped T seals, best answer I found to your current approach.
that was the quote on my first certifiable chamber,
Id done 3 pipe style setups with different closure designs when I got serious and started chasing a design that I could manufacture at reasonable margins.
Sad thing is thats not the hard nor expensive part. Flow and recompression is. You need $8-15k in compressor behind $2-4k in haskel intensifier, or you can sink $20-30k into a cat/giant piston pump. Cheaper options just get you running until you trip and stumble over the accumulating maintenance costs.
But ultimately its all about intent. If you are trying to be the next big boy on the block, you are in a different game than if you are trying to become one cog in an open source supply chain, which is a very different game than if you are just looking to be the guy all your home grower buddies hit up to extract their harvests scrappings.
LOL now that ive yapped your ear off, ha, you should probably check out capped T seals, best answer I found to your current approach.
Dang that's a pricey freaking quote. Well at least i can cut out about $8,000 from that quote doing all the work myself, I can manf my own flanges if i choose to go that route, I do have a couple of other closures in design but can't bench test until I have some orings.
Ya a piston pump is what I'm after, i have looked into many different designs and It seems this is were things will get spendy, I would like to design my own but just don't have the budget yet for R&D so my money needs to be spent wisely. I do have an investor interested once i get the first model finished and tested.
Yes we will be opening a processing facility, one part of the building will be for manf/assembly and the other side will be the processing. We already have our processing license for Wa State just need to work out all the details on how we will operate as a recreation or medicinal clinic.
No not at all you can yap my ear off all you want, I'm all ears..
Dude, The T-seal is what I'm after thank you !! I'm pretty sure you just made my day..
Please do not take my words in any way as discouragement. I have a business partner who has absolutely no interest in being involved in any aspect of the industry. I sincerely am just trying to spare you a few steps.
It is important in looking at that quote to understand that only the labor charge is truly a savable expense. Certified flanges are certified flanges. While I am just as able as you to lay a path and have the CNCs dance, that doesnt get you all the way there. Unless your shop is already doing petrochemical manufacture or some other high pressure vessel work than finding a shop to outsource production of critical components saves you loads in the long run. Even porsche buys components from bosche.
Its a matter of picking your battles.
Off the shelf chambers are restrictive in design and cost.
Ive taken that quote up a few grand by switching to a specialized closure system that significantly reduces weight, which for me is material cost, and my end user a significant decrease in strain.
Once that modification proved itself, the new design opened up new manufacturing possibilities. I am scheduled to receive production samples in 2 weeks. I have no reason to believe there will be any problems, but may have to revise a few parameters once we run burst testing. I worry my current design may not make it to 4X+ safety. I skimped this round and did the calculations myself with no FEA.
If this chamber shines, then theres about $1300 retail per side worth of hardware to close it up. While today being able to just make a call, drop a cheap used car in $$, and get them in a week works fine, I intend to shave about half of that cost in my final revision.
As Im waiting on one of my manufacturing partners to deliver these protochambers, Ive shifted my focus towards fluidic motivation. This is a perfect example of what I mentioned above, doing it all yourself isnt always best. Im capable of producing a raw ceramic piston, I make custom alumina and zirconia shielding. I am not capable of grinding them to the tolerance necessary for use as a piston. The guy I found who is capable of grinding them, can form and grind them cheaper than my raw material costs, because thats all his company does. I could invest a shittake load of cash to get specialized equipment, commit to an expensive employee to run the expensive equipment, raising the bar of success with additional capital outlay. I chased every viable commercial option. Ive gotten quotes for modified compression systems not intended for transcritical use. Ive even paid and played with a mortgage worth of propumps. For the highest tier my design currently scales to I require a pumping system that commercially ranges from $20-50k. Im targeting ~$7-10k components and labor at a 50 unit scale. Allowing me to pricetag that component at or just below the bottom of the suitable options Ive found.
If I built as a POC prototype Id be able to put something much more affordable together. My focus isnt only on the result in extraction, its also on the longevity of a fleet of extraction rigs and the anticipated support logistics of long term maintenance.
anyway,
Id just like to leave you with a bit of advice to ponder. If your potential investor believed in you they would fund you. If they are promising money AFTER youve built, WALK AWAY. What could they possibly offer you of worth at that point? I sold my first two prototypes to perfumers unconcerned with regulatory bodies and engineering certificates. That let me buy out my first two partners when their avarice began to interfere with my idealism.
I appreciate that their motivations led me to marijuana. Id started my affair with SCF chasing an entirely different beast, Waste processing with supercritical water.
It is important in looking at that quote to understand that only the labor charge is truly a savable expense. Certified flanges are certified flanges. While I am just as able as you to lay a path and have the CNCs dance, that doesnt get you all the way there. Unless your shop is already doing petrochemical manufacture or some other high pressure vessel work than finding a shop to outsource production of critical components saves you loads in the long run. Even porsche buys components from bosche.
Its a matter of picking your battles.
Off the shelf chambers are restrictive in design and cost.
Ive taken that quote up a few grand by switching to a specialized closure system that significantly reduces weight, which for me is material cost, and my end user a significant decrease in strain.
Once that modification proved itself, the new design opened up new manufacturing possibilities. I am scheduled to receive production samples in 2 weeks. I have no reason to believe there will be any problems, but may have to revise a few parameters once we run burst testing. I worry my current design may not make it to 4X+ safety. I skimped this round and did the calculations myself with no FEA.
If this chamber shines, then theres about $1300 retail per side worth of hardware to close it up. While today being able to just make a call, drop a cheap used car in $$, and get them in a week works fine, I intend to shave about half of that cost in my final revision.
As Im waiting on one of my manufacturing partners to deliver these protochambers, Ive shifted my focus towards fluidic motivation. This is a perfect example of what I mentioned above, doing it all yourself isnt always best. Im capable of producing a raw ceramic piston, I make custom alumina and zirconia shielding. I am not capable of grinding them to the tolerance necessary for use as a piston. The guy I found who is capable of grinding them, can form and grind them cheaper than my raw material costs, because thats all his company does. I could invest a shittake load of cash to get specialized equipment, commit to an expensive employee to run the expensive equipment, raising the bar of success with additional capital outlay. I chased every viable commercial option. Ive gotten quotes for modified compression systems not intended for transcritical use. Ive even paid and played with a mortgage worth of propumps. For the highest tier my design currently scales to I require a pumping system that commercially ranges from $20-50k. Im targeting ~$7-10k components and labor at a 50 unit scale. Allowing me to pricetag that component at or just below the bottom of the suitable options Ive found.
If I built as a POC prototype Id be able to put something much more affordable together. My focus isnt only on the result in extraction, its also on the longevity of a fleet of extraction rigs and the anticipated support logistics of long term maintenance.
anyway,
Id just like to leave you with a bit of advice to ponder. If your potential investor believed in you they would fund you. If they are promising money AFTER youve built, WALK AWAY. What could they possibly offer you of worth at that point? I sold my first two prototypes to perfumers unconcerned with regulatory bodies and engineering certificates. That let me buy out my first two partners when their avarice began to interfere with my idealism.
I appreciate that their motivations led me to marijuana. Id started my affair with SCF chasing an entirely different beast, Waste processing with supercritical water.
I'm not discouraged, I appreciate the input and valuable information. Its good fellas like yourself and GW so candor with your experience. I am very much greatful. Thank you.
TwistAround
New member
I am a new member here and let me start by saying thanks for all the great information I have already gained from this group. I have lots of research with SFE but no on cannabis and the more I learn about its use in this industry the more interested I am. I have heard some claims particularly from Apeks about a "6 day payback" on their equipment. Now I am not so concerned about the time of a payback from CO2 Cannabis SFE, but I am interested in the basic economics.
Could someone help me fill in the blanks below?
Cannabis Raw Material costs $___/gram
CO2 Extraction Yield of ___%
CO2 Extract Value of $___/gram
I feel like that with that information plus some assumptions about equipment depreciation and operating cost (including CO2 usage) I can get a better idea about whether this path of research really makes sense or not.
Thanks for your help and I hope this question is within terms of what people are willing to talk about here. I look forward to sharing in this learning with you all.
Could someone help me fill in the blanks below?
Cannabis Raw Material costs $___/gram
CO2 Extraction Yield of ___%
CO2 Extract Value of $___/gram
I feel like that with that information plus some assumptions about equipment depreciation and operating cost (including CO2 usage) I can get a better idea about whether this path of research really makes sense or not.
Thanks for your help and I hope this question is within terms of what people are willing to talk about here. I look forward to sharing in this learning with you all.
This is just my insight on your question.
Material costs vary depending on strain, locations, market etc.
% of yield depends on your experience generally 10 - 14 % return
CO2 goes for $85-120 per gram depending on strain, locations, market etc. the 509.
Are you researching to create your own co2?
Or looking to purchase a system.
TwistAround
New member
Thanks for your insight. Based on what I see there the numbers do make sense. If anyone does have broad ranges on the material costs they feel comfortable sharing please fill me in.
To answer your question, I am no engineer, just a scientist. Your CAD drawings earlier in this thread made me a little cross-eyed so I think I will stick to the pre-fabbed equipment! At this point I am in the very early phase of considering a transition to this world in a more focused way, but I must say the spirit of cooperation I see here is incredible.
509strain You are doing great work from what I can see, best of luck to you.
To answer your question, I am no engineer, just a scientist. Your CAD drawings earlier in this thread made me a little cross-eyed so I think I will stick to the pre-fabbed equipment! At this point I am in the very early phase of considering a transition to this world in a more focused way, but I must say the spirit of cooperation I see here is incredible.
509strain You are doing great work from what I can see, best of luck to you.
Lagrangian
New member
Good read, but i'll stick with the dry ice kief/rosin method
