Economy seeds. the good, the bad and the ugly

[M.R.GT]

Welcome everyone.

Sorry I was out of the net for awhile but the weather here is beautiful and the fish are biting so what can I say.

Jhhnn welcome and thanks for you input. I agree that marketing or for no better phrase hype drives our market.I have fallen for the hype many times and I probably will again.

Lester Beans welcome aboard plenty of room in the cheap seats. LOL
We are all the same pretty much. We get sucked in by the hype wanting only the latest and greatest, I think its just the competitive nature of people. I know I am that way.

Im digging the new open society and the availability of all the gear that's popping up everywhere. Here things still pretty tight but I think we all see the light at the end of the tunnel.

props on the PPP ran it years ago and a couple of crosses made from it.All was pretty dank.

vostok whats up brother. When you gonna drop those Afgn I cant wait to see them. I got some new bubble bags just itching to try out.


Bob Green Welcome bro, I hear what ya saying.

My intent is too put this info out for the poor Joe who doesn't have a grand to drop on beans.

The internet has a tendency to scare peeps off of the economy line based on bad vibes typically given by individuals that have never even touched or seen the seed stock. I read so many references to economy breeders as garbage, trash, junk, bird seed and a 100 other things with no justification. Just doesn't seem fair.

In this thread I may use some of the same terms to describe seed stock but only after I have justification. If I call it trash it will strictly be based on my grow experience documented here with pics to back it up.

As far as trying to sell at a dispensary that's not my thing. I went to a Denver dispensary a few months ago for the first time. From what I saw there, they would knock me down to buy some of this KC. May have to call it superlemonwhamythunderfuckdonkeydick and not KCB. Next thing you know everyone in Colorado would be looking for it.

Bottom line well grown sack seed is better than best strain poorly grown and I saw some blue dream there I wouldn't put in my compost pile.

Brother all of us who have been in this game for awhile have seed stock that others would drool over, its just the nature of the game. We hoard shit and cherish it. Been a bean collector myself since mid 90s.

relic1981
Mandala is some pretty kick ass gear. I ran a few of there lines with out a single complaint.
Ive been checking out some of the Cali growers as well some from Oregon.
OGS has pretty sick gear and I plan on hitting her up next month when she reopens.
Ran Bogg's sour bubble about 10 years ago good stuff always room for Bogg. He falls in that class with DJ short - a legend.

Cannavore

Mr. Nice is solid stock as far as Im concerned and a decent value with the 18 count.

I always wanted to do a side by side with Ingmar's gear. BW vs WW who is the true father kind of thing.

ManyClouds Good to see ya.

I agree bob has some good points especially if your a cash cropper. Its kinda like buying cheap tools to make a living with. An electrician needs a $300 volt meter but A home owner can get away with a $10 from the wally world. Same deal, a cash cropper can justify a grand on a 100 count, but a closet grower cant unless he is rolling fat in cash..

Infinitesimal Whats up brother.

Couldn't have said it better. Exactly good luck! Isn't that what that $100 a pack was for. Because the breeder has put the time and testing in there seed lines to gives us those high expectation kind of results. I can almost bet that the only testing done on many lines is a germination test. Yep they Germ pack em and ship em, KA CHING$$$

I know realty and desired expectations don't come no where near each other, but we can hope. It has to be true I read the breeder description and they would never lie. RIGGHHTT!




I hope I haven't come across as if Im bashing premium seed lines because that is not my intent. I more than anything would like to have an honest thread that gives other people an honest assessment of economy lines opposed to hear say. Crap is crap no matter how you color it so if they suck everyone will see. That goes both ways if they are great they will get to see that.

As things progress I hope to do some side by side of premium lines vs economy lines

KCB is not my seed of choice but was chosen to start with 1. because it is the absolutely cheapest seed I could find and 2. They are intended to go out doors so If I lose them it doesn't matter so much. These are my hash babies everything from my outdoor harvest will be made into hash or oil. The 2 that showed turned out nice enough to finish inside after cuts had been taken.

Now a few pics.

These are the Mango at 2 1/2 weeks from seed. I dropped 5. 4 popped within 3 days and 1 lagged around until about 7 or 8 days. Viable but starting to get tired I would imagine.



One is a little mutated but I think its growing out of it.



Another has these spots going on but still healthy.



The others all seem fine and happy. 2 weeks and they head to flower room to see what happens.


Holler at yall later.

Peace

GT

 

[Bob Green]

Bob Green

As far as trying to sell at a dispensary that's not my thing. I went to a Denver dispensary a few months ago for the first time. From what I saw there, they would knock me down to buy some of this KC. May have to call it superlemonwhamythunderfuckdonkeydick and not KCB. Next thing you know everyone in Colorado would be looking for it.

Bottom line well grown sack seed is better than best strain poorly grown and I saw some blue dream there I wouldn't put in my compost pile.


GT

Guess that part I put about the KC came out wrong looking back. I meant the folks in Cali are so Kush dominant that they don't really give anything else a fighting chance. We could grow out something like Mangobiche for six months and they would laugh us out the door. They want what they want. Strains like Stardawg are really good and have that bag appeal that makes people fork over the cash.

A friend of mine used to get bags of KC's Mango that was some of my favorite smoke. Not the strongest but it really made my body feel good. Did not give me the munchies but I could eat a ton if I wanted. Dude culled it for trendy crap that he could not dial inn and well... I quit getting herb from that guy! And to tell the truth I miss the KC Mango. You know I had forgotten all about that one till tonight. Funny how the mind works.

On a side note I think Cannabiogen has decent prices as well.

I spent $300 and got 24 Mextiza, 24 Mangobiche, 24 Mangobiche, 10 NepJam, and 10 Senegal Haze. One of my best buys bang for the buck.

Great thread!

 

[The English Cut]

Here's some reasonably priced strains i've recently had positive experiences with:

zenseeds - Dansk Diesel (Sour Diesel IBL) - €20 for 10 seeds. In fact all their seeds are pretty cheap and they have some great crosses using Krome's Triangle (aka The White). I'm finishing off flowering some Tropical Snow (Kalishapple x Krome's White Triangle), Krome's Triangle x Hindu Kush and Krome's Triangle Bx1 right now and they're looking and smelling really nice. I'd like to try their Copenhagen Kush and Grapefruit Kush next.

Hybrids from Hell - SSSDH (OJD's Cut) x Hashplant 2. €17 for 13 seeds. I ran a lot of HFH gear this spring and got a lot of hermie issues (mostly due to tough conditions and my fucking around with the photoperiod) but these just sailed through with no problems, frosted up like crazy and turned out some really strong tasty smoke. Also worth checking out are their other crosses using HP2 with C99/Jaggen, Amnesia (Core Cut) and Mosca's Tsi Fly. All €17 a pack.

Underground Seed Collective - Cheestral (UK Cheese x PCK). €22.50 for 10 seeds. Top notch gear. They have other strains I'd like to check out too, Durganchitral looks interesting. I've only seen their stuff for sale on the cannabiogen website, not sure if anywhere else sells them.

All the Ace and Cannabiogen stuff I ran was really quite excellent too, though I'm a huge cheapskate and they don't fall into the sub-€30 cheap category.

Hope that helps, peace, TEC.

 

[M.R.GT]

Hey Bob how is it going this morning?

It all good. No blood no foul. I appreciate your candor.

The market everywhere seems to be Kush driven. People tag everything with a Kush moniker just to sell. I don't think the majority of the people here have every actually had real Kush. For a long time it was Purp then it was Kush before them it was Chronic and who know what it will be next year. Its all about the buzz word of the day. People kill me with that. Smoked some cats out a while back it was self-made cross of C99 X LUI. After a couple of tokes all they could say was, " that's some fire ass Kush " even after I told them 10 times there was no Kush in it. How could you even confuse the two? For them any good Kind bud is Kush.

Damn near a 100 beans for $300 is a hell of a deal I would have jumped on that one as well.

I have never run stardawg and only a few cali strains unless they came through the Netherlands. You guys out there have it going on. The best strains always come from Cali been that way for years. I kinda envy yall.

KC's Mango has been his most popular for many for years, one of the reason I chose to run it for these little grow shows. Seems like others have problems germinating these. They are a little slow in germination and I believe most new grower start freaking if they aren't up within a few days and screw them up digging around looking. They do have there problems 2 out of the 5 have issues but to be expected from a line this old. Supposedly they have never been Inbreed or had f generations made. I don't know if I buy that but what do I know. How long can you keep an annual plant alive in clone form before it loses vigor? These would have to be pushing 25 years seems like a long time to me.

This is the first time I ran any KC gear. Honestly other than the High male to female ratio I have been a little surprised. Even what little breeder specs he gives are pretty much spot on. The KC33 Thai phenotype bud I have is a near identical match to the bud shots he shows. Hopefully the Mango will turn out as well. My luck they will all be male. LOL


English Cut

Brother we are not cheapskates just frugal. Nothing wrong with that.

All of those sound pretty killer. If you have any pics from your grows throw them up. There are so many overlooked economy strains out there it gets really hard to pic a line to demonstrate.

Ill have to get off my ass and make a few decisions on what to start next and make it happen.

A lot of great vibes about Peak and I have never ran any of there gear. They run about $40 a pack free shipping world wide which seems a reasonable price.

Cannabiogen has some decent prices and nice gear. Maybe Bob will run some of those he scored so we can check them out. I was thinking about running their Pakistan Chitral Kush as a mid price line at around $50 a pack.


I would like to run some Cali strains but most of the breeders and co-ops are not willing to ship and its a long ride from the east cost. Anyone got a line on a breeder who will ship? Oregon Green Seed has some pretty sick gear as well. I fully intend on giving her a spin. Her lines fall in the $50 to $60 dollar range. Not what I call cheap but affordable.


Take it easy all.

Peace
GT

 

[M.R.GT]

Hey guys.

Just a question for some who recommend peak seeds.

Are we talking about Peak Seeds or Peak Seeds BC?

Im digging on the peak seeds BB looks like some old DJ worked for awhile That and the Sweet Skunk always wanted to run Island Sweet Skunk.

One of these guys has got to be sketchy. Why else would they piggy back off of the other. I hate that crap when they try and cash in on someone else's name.

Peace
GT

 

[stoned-trout]

sometime you gots to pay....I got tired of shitty genetics..i don't like to pay more than 100$ for a pack if possible....yeehaw

 

[kangrowru]

GT, awesome thread! I am excited to see your results as you progress through your ever growing data base of inexpensive seeds. I had a question though, so whats to keep us poor folk from just taking a pack of seeds, doing an open pollination and rolling with that F1 generation?

DJ's bb would make a great example of my thought process, a pack of his bb on the tude is $130, spendy by all means and we might only find one keeper out of that 10...maybe. I have read here that some people suggest sorting through a few packs to really find a keeper from DJ's bb stock these days. Thats out of the price range I am willing to spend to find a solid bb, so why not get one pack and do an open pollination? Then I have maybe a couple hundred seeds to sort through rather than 10 and all for $130. Yes it would take more time, but in my mind it quickly reduces that price per seed to something very affordable.

Or am I just late to the party and this is how people have been finding keepers all these years?

Also what about the longevity of a line if I were to follow this thought process, would the 10 plant bottleneck create issues in subsequent generations/crosses?

 

[Gertz]

This is a great thread.

Im in a similar boat, I bought from Nirvana years ago and got a bit of sticker shock looking into beans this last week. Since its been awhile and I dont want to spend a lot on great beans before I get everything dialed in again I want to get a few grows under my belt using more economic strains that may not be the best out there but will provide good results.

 

[Jhhnn]

This is a great thread.

Im in a similar boat, I bought from Nirvana years ago and got a bit of sticker shock looking into beans this last week. Since its been awhile and I dont want to spend a lot on great beans before I get everything dialed in again I want to get a few grows under my belt using more economic strains that may not be the best out there but will provide good results.

As a personal grower who's struggled with technique, I think that's smart. Seeds from quality breeders like Nirvana will produce a quality product, just with some of it better or better suited to personal taste. In the 2.5 years I've come back to growing, I have only grown one dud, autoflowering syrup. That was right after an excellent experience with autoflowering ultraviolet. Since then I've grown a variety of not very expensive gear including no name freebies & it's all been quite good, usually better than what non-growers turn me on to.

Check out the 4 pack Nirvana deal at the Bou- 40 seeds for $49.27. That's a terrific deal for your purposes.

 

[yesum]

Hey guys.

Just a question for some who recommend peak seeds.

Are we talking about Peak Seeds or Peak Seeds BC?

Im digging on the peak seeds BB looks like some old DJ worked for awhile That and the Sweet Skunk always wanted to run Island Sweet Skunk.

One of these guys has got to be sketchy. Why else would they piggy back off of the other. I hate that crap when they try and cash in on someone else's name.

Peace
GT

BC is the one you want. I have not been to other guy's site but he came after BC and is a rip off. That is what I read on the net anyways.

 

[Gertz]

As a personal grower who's struggled with technique, I think that's smart. Seeds from quality breeders like Nirvana will produce a quality product, just with some of it better or better suited to personal taste. In the 2.5 years I've come back to growing, I have only grown one dud, autoflowering syrup. That was right after an excellent experience with autoflowering ultraviolet. Since then I've grown a variety of not very expensive gear including no name freebies & it's all been quite good, usually better than what non-growers turn me on to.

Check out the 4 pack Nirvana deal at the Bou- 40 seeds for $49.27. That's a terrific deal for your purposes.

Thanks for the heads up on that, going to check it out and yes that sounds like exactly what I want to get started.

 

[neongreen]

GT, awesome thread! I am excited to see your results as you progress through your ever growing data base of inexpensive seeds. I had a question though, so whats to keep us poor folk from just taking a pack of seeds, doing an open pollination and rolling with that F1 generation?

DJ's bb would make a great example of my thought process, a pack of his bb on the tude is $130, spendy by all means and we might only find one keeper out of that 10...maybe. I have read here that some people suggest sorting through a few packs to really find a keeper from DJ's bb stock these days. Thats out of the price range I am willing to spend to find a solid bb, so why not get one pack and do an open pollination? Then I have maybe a couple hundred seeds to sort through rather than 10 and all for $130. Yes it would take more time, but in my mind it quickly reduces that price per seed to something very affordable.

Or am I just late to the party and this is how people have been finding keepers all these years?

Also what about the longevity of a line if I were to follow this thought process, would the 10 plant bottleneck create issues in subsequent generations/crosses?

It's a good way to make your seeds go a lot further IMO, and people have been doing this for a long time. I don't know why more people don't do this.

Generally speaking, most seeds out there are already F1s (if you buy from a well known/commercial breeder), so when you reproduce them you get your first inbred generation (F2). Bottle necking could become an issue much further down the line, but with around 8 or 10 plants in the mix I'd imagine that you should be ok for at least 4 or 5 generations. If you produce a few hundred seeds every generation, and make a new generation every 7-10 years then you'll have seeds for decades to come anyway.

If you are really concerned, split your original pack into two separate lines, and when one line eventually starts to show loss in vigor combine both lines back into one line to restore (at least some) vigor.

If you are not concerned about keeping your line 100% pure you could introduce an unrelated strain and breed back to your original strain whilst selecting the hybrid generation for traits that you want to keep from your original strain, much like Cannabiogen did with Taskenti and Northern Lights.

 

[M.R.GT]

Hey all.

Thanks for stopping by and contributing.


stoned-trout
what's up? Ya gotta pay to play but some time you find a diamond in the rough as Bob would say.




kangrowru
Welcome and thanks for the props I hope it helps ya out.

neongreen petty much cover it as well as I could. I make f2s of everything I run using at least 2 males and how ever many females I get just to have a base line seed stock of the strain to run.

KC33 P stock for F2s

Many top breeder have made a very good living doing exactly that. KCB worked his strains for the most part but some just popped out f1s made straight f2s changed the name and their off to the market. I like F2s they have a wider range of phenotypes to pick from usually.

yesum

Thanks for the heads up brother. I heard it both ways so Im still not sure. Some say Peak Seeds and some Peak Seeds BC so I think some more research is in order.


Gertz

Welcome. Good call we all have been in similar situations. Once you get her dialed in we will be waiting to see some pics.

I would stay away from most of KC's gear while dialing in. They tend to be big plants and they grow well indoor sometime to well. If you can handle a big stretch then go for it.

It doesn't take much for them to go into overgrow calling for some gentle whipping into shape.

Im with Jhhnn about nirvana lots of strains and a little more focused on the indoor side. Check out seedsman lines as well very fair priced. KC has a Bahia Blackhead that gets great review. Right down to it just about any economy line from a long time breeder will give you good results.

Jhhnn

Great to see ya.
Good call on those nirvanas. Have you run many autoflower strains? I've never given them a try. I was always curious about doing a gorilla grow with them "But I Got High ".

neongreen
Welcome and Good looking out appreciate the input.
Spot on brother couldn't have said it better myself.


Thanks to everyone for stopping in and giving feedback. Feel free to post of pics if ya gotum.

Here are a couple of pics of the KC33 at day 53.

Peace
GT

 

[yesum]

'Thanks for the heads up brother. I read it both ways so Im still not sure. Some say Peak Seeds and some Peak Seeds BC so I think some more research is in order.'

I went over to the other Peak Seeds and it is in Amsterdam. They have a bazillion seeds to buy but they are not the Peak Seeds everyone here talks about. They had a bad rep a while back too though that is just hearsay.

 

[barletta]

MrNice seeds generally come in under $5/seed & can be considerably less expensive on shanti's auction site. Waiting on appx 100-120 seeds & sent in $126. Mango Hz inbred bulk pack, LaNina & master kush/sk in 18+ packs. Not mixed seeds or bottom end varieties either. When I was on the east coast & couldn't get a $5 clone if anything under the nor cal sun, I used to pick up a pack of Shit about every year for outdoor. Stable, reliably uniform (80%+ similar plants), fast & funky. Also in & outcrosses very well.

Had 3 of 4 kickass plants from sativa seedbank's "Pakalolo". Mandalas Kalichakra was a letdown. Mississippi Mud freebies from the bay were kickass & free

Can't say enough about MrNice & Shanti. The beans also come with AWESOME customer service. I've had $50 packs with germ issues replaced with $120 high end packs.

 

[Jhhnn]

I started out with autoflowers when I came back to growing in 2013. It's a long story, but I hadn't used cannabis since 1988 & they were a quick way to establish a stash. They're a whole different world, one where light control isn't an issue & where it's extremely important to do it well right from the start. You can't just veg longer to make up for problems early on. I've moved on to photo strains because I could but autos have a rightful place in it all & will only get better through breeding efforts. I even made a seed run of Spyder & Ultraviolet x Spyder. Nearby growers can PM me for really cheap (free) seeds if they're interested. Planted soon, they'll easily finish outdoors here in the metro area. I'm no breeder, just a pollen chucker & have no idea how they'll turn out.

 

[sprinkl]

Great thread. I simply refuse to pay $10/seed, hell $5/regular seed is my absolute max and that would be only for proven quality stuff like ACE's.

Expensive seeds are mostly a big scam if you ask me, both leaning on the fact that people want to buy things that are hyped, so OG this and that is very wanted with the smokers, and growers need to follow the market if they want to get easy sales.
On the other hand there is a natural belief that expensive things must be better. Which is so flawed.

$annie, USC, Dynasty Seeds, Eskobar use prized genetics and sell at fair prices.
Nirvana's stuff is more than decent.
MrNice's bulk packs are cheaaaap!
HFH, 16-18€ for 13 seeds!

Female seeds around €4/seed, had some hermi prone plants but what line doesn't... No herm problems outdoor either, love their outdoor stuff
Purple Maroc

[/IMG]

 

[M.R.GT]

Morning all, hope all is well for each and everyone.


yesum
I think your right that everyone here is talking about Peak Seeds from Canada. I checked out Peak Seeds BC and they are a larger seed bank from Europe. I believe I will give the Canadian guys a try with a small order 1 or 2 packs. They are a mail in company which I have never been to keen on but the cost are reasonable and they have some desirable strains that make it worth the chance.


barletta welcome and thanks for stopping by.

Mr nice are has some great gear at reasonable prices. The 18 count really cuts the price per bean and there is no doubt about the genetics. Ive seen his shit on sale for as low as $30 an 18 count. Should have scored those but the shit moniker kind of put me back. Smell can be an issue for me and I didn't want to hear my wife screaming "those smell like shit" literally. Sorry to hear about you Kalichakra experience. I ran those in 04 and was happy with the strain. The only draw back was as my selected mother got older she began to cause paranoia when smoked so I culled it. I would run them again. For a couple of years she was outstanding.


Jhhnn good to see ya.
Autos seem to have just about taken over the market. The European guys seem to love them. Remember when low ryder hit the streets it was all the rage. I like to pollen chuck as well. I try and hit just about everything with something just for fun. Sometime they turn out good, sometime not so good but still a hoot to grow.


sprinklThanks for stopping in and sharing.

Sweet purple Maroc. I ran females seeds NL X ICE and C99 back in the day with good results. Still have a couple packs of there X lines that Ill get around to one day.

You are absolutely right about hermi issues. There is not a strain out there that wont hermi under the right conditions.

$10 a bean is hard to wrap your mind around some time I agree. I have done it a few times with mixed results. With so much hype its hard to say whats legit and whats BS.


I truly believe that if you stick with breeders that have been around for years the economy lines are fine.

It goes back to demand. The older lines have less demand due to the fact everyone wants the latest and greatest. With less demand the price goes down not the quality.

Lots of the elite cuts come from some of the current economy lines when they were new. If you look at the linage of the elite cuts you'll normally find skunk 1, NL, Haze, Afgan either alone or in some combination. All of these can be had a reasonable prices from reputable long term breeders. Props to Sam the skunk man, The guy who changed the modern cannabis scene.

The very strains that are $10 a bean now will be $20 bucks a pack in 10 years. Just cause there is snow on the mountain doesn't mean there no fire down below.

Enjoy the day. Wake and Bake

Peace.
GT

 

[Jhhnn]

Dunno that autos have taken over the market, but they're def the new frontier for breeders. They're a good choice for microgrows & sunny balconies because they won't get big. Anybody who does well with sun loving houseplants can continuously harvest autoflowers indoors They're good outdoors where the growing season is short or plagued by late season rain.

Indoors, just leave the light on, forget photoperiod problems, overlap seedlings & mature plants in the same small space. That's also why they're mostly fems. They thrive on basic plant care & good nutrition.

They're very much aimed at personal growing rather than commercial growing, even small scale commercial growing.

 

[M.R.GT]

Seems line when you go to one of the big seed banks all you see is auto this and auto that. I had to look for regular seeds.

They sound like fun but just have never tried them.