Eagle 20 PM Killer, Cancerous?

[Mia]

Once again, there is no evidence it is carcinogenic to humans at this time regardless of loopy prop.65.
If you are going to appeal to authority on the matter, then you must accept it when it doesn't say what you want.

And Weird, really, save the self righteousness for something else, it does no one any good...

 

[YosemiteSam]

What would be interesting to know is if a single person has actually changed their mind/method as a result of this thread.

I kinda suspect it may be time to call a draw and shut er down.

but what do i know.

 

[Mia]

Carcinogenicity:
Animals
•• Researchers exposed male and female F344 rats to naphthalene vapors at 10, 30, or 60 ppm for 6 hours a day, five days a
week for two years. Respiratory epithelial adenomas and olfactory epithelial neuroblastomas occurred in the noses of both
males and females. In addition, non-cancerous lesions were also noted in the lungs and noses of the animals.32
•• The National Toxicology Program concluded that there was some evidence of carcinogenic activity of naphthalene in female
B6C3F1 mice. When these mice were exposed to naphthalene vapors for two years at 10 or 30 ppm, they developed
increased rates of bronchiolar and alveolar adenomas. No evidence of carcinogenic activity was found in male mice exposed
to the same doses.33
•• Embryonic roundworms (Caenorhabditis elegans) were used in mechanistic studies of the carcinogenicity of naphthalene.
The authors hypothesized that the 1,4-naphthoquinone metabolite of naphthalene suppressed normal cell apoptosis.34
Humans
•• The International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) of the World Health Organization (WHO) concluded that there was
inadequate evidence to evaluate the carcinogenicity of naphthalene to humans, but found sufficient evidence in animals
to conclude that naphthalene is carcinogenic. IARC concluded their evaluation by placing naphthalene in Group 2B, possibly
carcinogenic to humans.

 

[stasis]

Well, Mr. Weird... Are you saying that you do not get Mildew..?

Or that you do not treat for it..

Please enlighten us, the Rabble... You must have the perfect room, with the perfect
conditions.. The perfect Strains, grown perfectly..

How do you do it..?

 

[krunchbubble]

Well, Mr. Weird... Are you saying that you do not get Mildew..?

Or that you do not treat for it..

Please enlighten us, the Rabble... You must have the perfect room, with the perfect
conditions.. The perfect Strains, grown perfectly..

How do you do it..?

He argues with the PM, and continuously tells it how much of a God he thinks he is....

 

[Weird]

Once again, there is no evidence it is carcinogenic to humans at this time regardless of loopy prop.65.
If you are going to appeal to authority on the matter, then you must accept it when it doesn't say what you want.

right there in the data sheet it says the naphthalene in it is a cancer causing agent

but hey if your too paranoid about government conspiracy to believe the MSDS is bullshit then that's on you

but I even went further than that just in case

I provided the links to the wealth of databases, external to the government and read the information on each component, and the various data regarding them.

but you didn't go that far did you? went a little over your head?
can't discern fact by disseminating data from various sources and come to concrete conclusions on your own ?

[/quote]

And Weird, really, save the self righteousness for something else, it does no one any good...

if my telling you you don't need eagle20 to grow is self righteous then you must really such at growing and you must have a very sensitive ego

it isn't self righteous to give a fuck about the people you provide medicine to.

it just keeps me from being a greedy belligerent piece of shit who is repeating the same bullshit mantra that big corporate America does

PROFIT > PEOPLE

sorry if being able to grow without selling myself on the notion i have to use eagle20 threatens you

and you know what I don't five a fuck if I hurt your feelings

i'm nice most the times because I choose to be, jsut like using eagle20 is a choice

and right now im choosing to be an abrasive fuck

my being a dick in this thread is karmically far less offensive since I am simply presenting TRUTH than a bunch of ass hats exposing their meds to toxins they cant test for come in a thread and try to justify its ok because:

A) the government is corrupt

B) you can't taste it so it must be gone

C) I only use it as a preventative and im using it as directed

D) PM has to be more dangerous than it

none of which can be qualified while we all know GUARANTEED if you don't use it its not there

at least me being a dick in this forum you have a chance to see what im doing and say something and perhaps a few eyes will be opened

but putting shit on plants that COULD fuck someone up and not letting em know

lol yeah that's some brave ass manly baller mother fucker shit right there right?

come on admit the truth hurts

you don't know enough about growing to pull off a run without eagle20

your not good enough at business to afford risking another way so that's out

and in the end you don't give a fuck about the humanity within your self or your patients for it to be a motivator either

you want a civil conversation or a constructive debate

right on

your going to troll a bunch of bullshit rhetoric at the expense of others (by denial of the potential danger) because you can't wrap your head around the facts

well lets just say if your going to be a dog and shit on the carpet at some fucking point i'm going to put your fucking nose in it and tell you no until you stop

we have reached that point

so either debunk the MSDS with scientific fact or stfu unless you want me to continue calling you out on being an irresponsible and limited which is painfully easy

 

[Weird]

Well, Mr. Weird... Are you saying that you do not get Mildew..

lol only from cuts passed from cali

Or that you do not treat for it..

I don't treat for illness my plants aren't suffering

my preemptive treatment is proper plant health with robust microbiology in the rhizosphere

plants catch disease for their environment and themselves

knowing your stock is free of pathogens eliminates a one piece of the puzzle. eliminating it from the environment is the other

Please enlighten us, the Rabble... You must have the perfect room, with the perfect
conditions.. The perfect Strains, grown perfectly..

i grow in the most ghetto of setups with shitty old gear and put about zero effort into it

i've gotten old and i beyond lazy

if all things were equal i would have the worst grow

nothing i do is perfect it is just good enough not to need eagle20

How do you do it..?

what I would use and how I would do it is very much depends on the scenario

existing grow or new build?

where is it located?

is treatment preemptive or reactive?

what kinda environment is it?

what tech?

what medium?

what strains?

what feed, how much, how often?

is it present in flower or veg or both?

what's your budget?

too many questions not enough details

when I got the "dreaded" cali PM it was serious enough that it coated a couple plants over night FUCKING COATED

i culled the infected flowering plants and quarantined my veg

treated all non infected plants with alternating treatments of green cure, hydroguard and silica.

properly treating plants with non systemic treatments like green cure is a monumental PITA to use correctly since it has to saturate the whole plant

to do so i built a "showering" chamber to saturate and let hem sit in. treatment was not only a monumental effort but tedious

i could see this as the greatest deterrent to non toxic remediation

i set up one of my ozone generators (at a certain ppm ozone kills smell at a greater ppm it abates molds and mildews) to scrub the room's intake as well

I broke down my mothers to cuts and put them in a humidity dome and treated them the same way (being careful not to bias the medium with the foliar treatments)

PM did not and has not returned

I might also mention that I am highly allergic to mold and mildew and there is a negative cause and effect when I am exposed to it in any form

basically if i smoke bud with pm mold or anything i get serious allergy attacks

 

[Mia]

You are a rather dense thing aren't you?
Once again, at this point in time it is inconclusive that it causes cancer in humans, hence the word "possible".
You know nothing about me, how I grow, and what measures I take. You're long on assumptions and short on fact.
Your lack of reasoning is made up for by your arrogance and condescension, it is a serious character flaw on your part.
Speaking of Karma and such only adds to the irony....
You think you know more than you do...... you will pay for it...you already have.

 

[avant gardener]

this shit is perfectly retarded now.
unsubscribed.
enjoy.

 

[Weird]

He argues with the PM, and continuously tells it how much of a God he thinks he is....

i dont argue with PM, PM is reasonable, it responds to a variety of treatments

i only argue with irrational internet personalities because treating them is far more difficult

they have grown highly resistant to logic, continue to multiply like cockroaches and have egos so frail they defend them with the mindless relent of an enraged Floridian face eater

 

[Weird]

You are a rather dense thing aren't you?
Once again, at this point in time it is inconclusive that it causes cancer in humans, hence the word "possible".

your wrong according to the MSDS IT IS KNOWN to cause cancer

Under California's Proposition 65, naphthalene is listed as "known to the State to cause cancer".[12]

however while the

The International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC)[11] classifies naphthalene as possibly carcinogenic to humans and animals (Group 2B). The IARC also points out that acute exposure causes cataracts in humans, rats, rabbits, and mice; and that hemolytic anemia, described above, can occur in children and infants after oral or inhalation exposure or after maternal exposure during pregnancy.

the EPA reports

While there aren’t any
studies on the effects of naphthalene on
humans, naphthalene caused cancer in
female mice but not the male mice.

or how about this one from the NPIC

Animal studies have suggested that naphthalene can cause cancer. The International Agency for Research on Cancer
(IARC) of the World Health Organization concluded that naphthalene is possibly carcinogenic to humans. The U.S. EPA
classified naphthalene as a possible human carcinogen, also based on animal studies.

like i said debunk the MSDS with science but you can't can you?

how about we use your statement and say its only ossible:

that means possible if you use but it also means impossible if you don't but it doesn't matter your logic makes me as dense as it makes you genius

You know nothing about me, how I grow, and what measures I take. You're long on assumptions and short on fact.

no assumptions here i'm basing it solely on your contribution to this thread

if you don't use it what the fuck is your agenda

if you do, then simply answer why? only tool you got?

Your lack of reasoning is made up for by your arrogance and condescension, it is a serious character flaw on your part.

if i were defending my ego yes i would be arrogant and condescending

however its not when I simply assert the necessity of the intgerity for truth around an issue such as this

Speaking of Karma and such only adds to the irony....
You think you know more than you do......

karma is a very, very serious matter to me as is the propagation of the lotus sutra

that's why I won't let dangerous propagation of bullshit propaganda like possibly carcinogenic really means safe

you will pay for it...you already have.

i know u reap what u sow, been propagating that message for some time as well

and please send all the negative energy you got my way, i'm good at righting the karma of others as well

i know who i am and that is all that matters

nam myoho renge kyo

 

[Mia]

Once again weird, show me the exact evidence that it is known to cause cancer in humans.........enjoy the search lol...there simply is nothing conclusive as of right now, despite your obfuscation ...
You do realize the amounts and frequency that were fed to those animals don't you....and you think it is analogous to pot farmers using once in a veg cycle?That is what I mean when I say you don't understand what you are doing....
Why is it used on grapes, apples, etc if it is so goddamn terrible Weird??
Have you factored in the half life? Can you tell us what, if anything will be present in the plant at harvest?
Have you taken these things into account in your analysis all knowing one?
Hey Weird, did you know bananas are radioactive? It's true, better stay away from them....
Me, I eat them every day.
Geez where's Grapeman when you need him................
Won't even bother with the rest of your diatribe.......

 

[Weird]

Once again weird, show me the exact evidence that it is known to cause cancer in humans.........

you got it article and source

http://www.naphthalenesymposium.org/agenda.asp

Does naphthalene cause cancer in humans?
Historically, naphthalene in the environment has been believed to present no material human cancer risk. This view was based on the fact that ambient environmental levels are in the ppb range, and there have been no credible scientific studies showing that naphthalene caused cancer in animals even at doses more than a thousand times greater. In 2001, however, the U.S. National Toxicology Program (NTP) released the results of a two-year bioassay showing that some rats exposed to doses of 10, 30 and 60 parts per million (ppm) exhibited rare cancers in the nasal epithelium. Based on this study, U.S. EPA's National Air Toxics Assessment extrapolates that as much as 5% of all cancers from air toxics are attributable to naphthalene.

http://www.rxpgnews.com/cancer/printer_4510.shtml

Chemical compounds in household products like mothballs and air fresheners can cause cancer by blocking the normal process of "cell suicide" in living organisms, according to a new study spearheaded by the University of Colorado at Boulder.

Naphthalene in mothballs and para-dichlorobenzene, or PDCB, found in some air fresheners, were shown to block enzymes that initiate programmed cell death, or apoptosis, said Associate Professor Ding Xue of CU-Boulder's molecular, cellular and developmental biology department. Apoptosis is a normal function of certain cell groups that acts as a "brake" to prevent unchecked cellular proliferation similar to the process that triggers the formation of cancerous tumors, said Xue.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiat..._bladder-cancerous-tumour-ashish-mukhopadhyay

Naphthalene triggers rare cancer in minor ...


Studies on animals conducted by US Department of Health and Human Services concluded that naphthalene was reasonably anticipated to be a human carcinogen. International Agency for Research on Cancer said naphthalene was possibly carcinogenic to humans as there was enough evidence that it caused cancer in animals.

http://pubs.healtheffects.org/getfile.php?u=393

Two case studies of cancer in humans exposed to naphthalene
were reported. One describes four cases of laryngeal
cancer (all in smokers) among workers in a
naphthalene-purification plant in East Germany. The other
describes 23 cases of colorectal carcinoma in people
admitted to a hospital in Nigeria. The NTP (2005) and the
IARC (2002) concurred that these studies provided inadequate
evidence of naphthalene carcinogenicity in humans.

You do realize the amounts and frequency that were fed to those animals don't you....

yeah

and you think it is analogous to pot farmers using once in a veg cycle?

yeah i do because they cant be qualified. you are left to guess, you are not using it as labelled. it is in a closed environment on a different type of plant

and you think it is analogous to use the product indoors on leafy green plants grown in a closed media?

That is what I mean when I say you don't understand what you are doing....

i know what you mean ler me explain what i mean

by virtue of NEEDING eagle20 indoors you are disqualifying yourself from being able to say you can safely administer it

Why is it used on grapes, apples, etc??

50% of the worlds myclobutanil is used in California 60% of which is used on grapes

grapes and apples do not have the same cellular structure and do not absorb foliars the same way as leafy green plants

and while i don't know alot about tree and vine fruits there are obvious distinctions

i also know that mybcutinal is mobile in the environment and if it can't mobilize it can become residual and since it is systemic that means if your growing in closed media (containers, slabs, whatever) that it is not mobilizing and dissipating into the environment as if it was outdoors. the calculated dissipation rates now change, especially if you water without getting runoff

Hey Weird, did you know bananas are radioactive

yes
{quote] It's true, better stay away from them.... Me, I eat them every day. [/quote]

so do monkeys, explains alot

Geez where's Grapeman when you need him................

lol when all else fails call in reinforcements

Won't even bother with the rest of your diatribe.......

no you would rather slander me.

while making yourself look like a frustrated idiot by attacking me and ignoring any request for a fact based discussion

i get it

:: rub rub

NO NO

BAD DOG

BAD

NOW GO LAY DOWN

ohh wait you already did

 

[Mia]

You really are a strange bird and your constant emoting over the whole thing does not leave a good impression of your personality. At least SeaMaiden is civil...most of the time...

So you go and quote a bunch of animal studies, again....
The only one that has anything to do with humans states at the end "The NTP (2005) and the
IARC (2002) concurred that these studies provided inadequate
evidence of naphthalene carcinogenicity in humans. "
That bolded sentence is more relevant to our discussion than yours wouldn't you agree all knowing one?
So nice try, but no cigarillo...
But I'm sure you'll still stick by your erroneous statement won't you, otherwise it just wouldn't jive with your agenda.

Mycobutanol, good bad or ugly for the environment, is not carcinogenic so quit crying about that...that is not the issue here.

I never said I needed it, you did. In fact I haven't used Eagle20 in many months and have no intentions of doing so. Just another one of your assumptions.

Finally, it's a bit laughable for you to complain about being "slandered" and turn around and call others names. Smells hypocritical.

At any rate you're boring me with your arguments and it doesn't appear anything substantive will come from this so enjoy your last word.


You know you want it.

 

[Weird]

You really are a strange bird.

really ? my name IS weird .. go figure

So you go and quote a bunch of animal studies, again....
The only one that has anything to do with humans states at the end "The NTP (2005) and the
IARC (2002) concurred that these studies provided inadequate
evidence of naphthalene carcinogenicity in humans. "
That bolded sentence is more relevant to our discussion than yours wouldn't you agree all knowing one?
So nice try, but no cigarillo...

reading comprehension BRAH

THOSE studies didn't provide adequate evidence

However the OTHER cases and studies I linked to DID

the evidence is cumulative

I guess this is why you don't trust the MSDS, your so amped to justify your interpretation of things no possible interpretation can exist

Mycobutanol, good bad or ugly for the environment, is not carcinogenic so quit crying about that...that is not the issue here.

while mycobutanol is not known to cause cancer it causes a plethora of other issues most notable liver disease, very dangerous side effect for med patients

however its not the ONLY ingredient in eagle20

relevance is key

and by the way the environment is of concern to me its tied to my karma

I never said I needed it, you did. In fact I haven't Eagle20 in many months and have no intentions of doing so. Just another one of your assumptions.

soo you don't need it anymore. lol o.k.

i get it i really do

you read this and thought, if i admit to myself that I used and might possibly need something that might be dangerous I have to deal with my conscious which in turn might blame my ego which in its magnified state cannot take criticism I will have a breakdown so attach the dude stating fact (learn to handle your weed dude seriously)

Finally, it's a bit laughable for you to complain about being "slandered" and turn around and call others names. Smells hypocritical.

no you along with the goony squad were attacking me because I posted the data i did.

what bothers me is it PROMOTE ITS USE by nominalizing its danger

At any rate you're boring me with your arguments and it doesn't appear anything substantive will come from this so enjoy your last word.

im not worried about last word im worried about truth

people can draw their own conclusions

if i were you i woudl pick apart my gallery

You know you want it.

sit ubu sit

 

[SeaMaiden]

It had been a long time since I'd read the MSDS, and hadn't really gone through Section 15. I've attached the MSDS to the previous page. Several states severely restrict its use, and it's not "just" the myclobutinil that's an issue here. Neither is naphthalene, there are other compounds that are known to cause problems, and I'm going off memory here but it's not just carcinogenity, but also toxicity and reproductive harm.

I personally can still point to my experience with aquatic ornamentals, which dictates that the organisms in question will perform well, thrive even, if top quality environmental conditions and nutrition exist. I want to extrapolate that to plants, I don't see why it can't be done. To that end, I have my very first refractometer, even after insisting back in the day that I would only measure specific gravity with a traditional hydrometer. When I can, I will learn more about how to handle and possibly change sap pH parameters (that golden number of 6.4 almost reminds me of the golden ratio for some mathematically declined reason). And after *that*, he mentions NH4:NO3 ratios within plant sap (? hope I'm understanding that bit right). The how of all of this still eludes me except that I know that if I adhere to organic methods and standards everyone just generally does a whole lot BETTER.

However, at this point I personally am quite satisfied that carcinogenity of E20 is proven, because myclobutinil is not the only substance in it.

Mia, thank you, I try to be reasonable because... because I believe in the Golden Rule, and I'm sure I'm still quite ignorant about many things, so I hope that others would still treat me with a modicum of respect should I be glaringly so.

I did some searching yesterday, regarding The Corollary: Tobacco, and what's used for treating stuff like PM. We have a problem. So far what I've found is that all commercially available treatments for PM on tobacco are only labeled for agricultural use. At this time, as I'm understanding it, even if you were a home-grower of tobacco you couldn't technically and legally use these products unless you've received both the training/education and your ID# from your county ag department. I don't know if the government has the requirement that you must make an income from that tobacco (sales) in order to be able to qualify for acquisition of this ID#, or if a home-grower could simply do it. But one thing seems clear--for application of products approved for use on tobacco one needs to have that nifty little pesticide ID#.

I hope that paragraph made sense. I'm still in the wobbly learning stage.


Yosemite Sam's posts often hold so much information that it's a brain-whack. I find this rather interesting given what he's been generous enough to share with us.

More links, but not sausage:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1744-7348.1964.tb01194.x/abstract

In water culture experiments, tobacco plants of Hicks variety were supplied with factorial combinations of high and low concentrations of nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium. Incidence of powdery mildew and growth and chemical composition of infected and healthy plants were compared.

There was more disease when all elements were supplied at the higher of two concentrations, but the increase in infection was less than the increase in growth. Plants grown in media containing a low ratio of potassium to nitrogen produced the least susceptible leaves; their disease indices were up to 30 times less than those of plants that received the full nutrient treatment. Potassium-deficient leaves had thinner cell walls, larger water content, smaller sugar and potassium contents, and greater amino nitrogen and magnesium contents, compared with those of plants grown in any of the other media. The possible relation between these characteristics and susceptibility to Erysiphe cichoracearum DC. are discussed.

 

[RedReign]

Once again weird, show me the exact evidence that it is known to cause cancer in humans.........enjoy the search lol...there simply is nothing conclusive as of right now, despite your obfuscation ...
You do realize the amounts and frequency that were fed to those animals don't you....and you think it is analogous to pot farmers using once in a veg cycle?That is what I mean when I say you don't understand what you are doing....
Why is it used on grapes, apples, etc if it is so goddamn terrible Weird??
Have you factored in the half life? Can you tell us what, if anything will be present in the plant at harvest?
Have you taken these things into account in your analysis all knowing one?
Hey Weird, did you know bananas are radioactive? It's true, better stay away from them....
Me, I eat them every day.
Geez where's Grapeman when you need him................
Won't even bother with the rest of your diatribe.......

Has this question been answered yet?

 

[greenmatter]

Has this question been answered yet?

if it could be it would save a shit load of server space ........ but then the lab results could be argued about for another couple years

 

[Bi0hazard]

Seamaiden,

Any updates on info about how long Eagle 20 can stay in the plant tissue. I think the discovery of this info could show whether it is possible to use it responsibly or whether there are always possible risks...

 

[Mia]

Has this question been answered yet?

No and that is the crux of the problem, we're dealing with incomplete information here. That was really all I was trying to say.
If I have a heart attack and go to the hospital, the doctors can give me drugs that may save my life. If they give me too much, I may die...
Water is good for you, too much water will kill you...
These issues have more complexity than certain people wish to paint them with.
Does Naphthalene bother me? Yes
I believe there may also be cyclohexane?sp? which is concerning.
Do I necessarily believe eagle 20 is cancerous if used in what I would call an appropriate manner, I honestly don't know, but am willing to look at the facts. And I'll admit there are some troubling things about the product. But the literature is just not conclusive, especially specifically with regards to what we do, despite what others will claim...
Will I use it in the future at this point?
Yes if I deem it necessary but only in veg and as far away from flip as possible....
And I will be honest with whomever asks me...
But I have no desire to use it in the near future, I have plenty of other things that can be used 100% safely in flower.
But really, if you're getting pm you should be looking to your environment. My issue is my house is poorly insulated and prone to temp. swings. My minisplit is on the way to finally kill off that issue once and for all.