Dud Identification Collective Knowledge.

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

Did you ask them to test for Hemp Streak Virus?
Just curious. That may be the same test as that for TMV. Not sure.
So they found fungi, but haven't identified it yet?
I would be surprised if they didn't find fungi, as almost everything has some fungi on it. Fusarium is fungal, so
presumably that hasn't been ruled out yet. Some of the pictures posted earlier in the thread sure looked like fusarium wilt. I guess we shall see, eventually.

no i didnt but i think they are going for it without my request. today the people said they came back neg on the swirly NON-DUDDED Tests from the wifi so they are going to use the electron microscope.
hemp streak can be detected with that so........im guessing thats the direction they are headed. ill find out tomorrow.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

the lab picked the tests as i only asked for tmv on the wifi. for the dudded og i tested fusarium veticilium tmv and phyto. they arent able to run the tmv on that one.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

just to be clear the negative tmv tests are not duds it was just a random personal curiosity that has nothing to do with this thread. the dud hasnt tested neg yet.

 

[RetroGrow]

So, we know for certain that broad mites cause "dudding". I've been trying to find out what the "toxin" their saliva contains, but nobody seems to know. I've read pretty much everything I can find on them, and it's always the same story, toxic saliva, although this is apparently a theory, used to explain viral symptoms in the absence of any virus. I was under the impression from reading that any pest can transmit a virus just by contact, however experiments have shown a failure of broad mites to pass on viruses. Maybe Sam can chime in on this. I'm going to try to contact some botanists at some agricultural universities. Here is a summary of what we know so far:

Because of their small size and secretive
behaviors, broad mite populations are
seldom noticed until feeding injury is
visible. We also do not fully understand
how feeding injury occurs. Damage on
young, expanding plant tissues persists and
can get worse even after the broad mites
have been killed. Mite-vectored viruses
cannot explain plant injury. Broad mites
feed shallowly, disrupting only the surface
cells of plant leaves and consuming the cell
contents. Broad mites have been unable to
transmit several plant viruses in
experimental trials. These observations
suggest that a salivary toxin is injected into
plant tissues while broad mites feed.
Broad mites prefer to feed on flower and
leaf buds and on the undersides of
expanding new leaves. Developing leaf
tissues become brittle and contorted. Leaf
edges curl and the leaf becomes cupped or
strap-shaped. Foliage and flowers
with feeding injury may appear silvery or
become purple or copper-colored. Once
injured plants are identified, broad mites
frequently can be found clustered on leaf
undersides and in the protected areas
between major leaf veins.
Affected leaves and fruit may drop
prematurely. Internodes are shortened and a
greater-than-averagen number of lateral buds
will break. Under heavy attack, plants stop
growing and can be killed.

http://plantsciences.utk.edu/pdf/BroadMites.pdf

Damage is caused by secretion of a plant growth regulator or toxin as the mite feeds, and significant damage can occur at very low pest density. Symptoms include leaf and fruit distortions, shortening of internodes, blistering, shriveling and curling of leaves, and leaf discoloration. Much of this can be easily confused with viral disease, micronutrient deficiency, or herbicide injury. Fruit may be deformed, split, or russeted. Infestations in pepper can cause a bronzing of terminal growth and are frequently associated with a characteristic 's'-shaped twisting of the main stem in leaves. Damage may appear for weeks after the mites have been controlled, and when combined with the difficulty in detecting mites, makes evaluation of control measures difficult and has likely led to reports of control failures.

http://www.ent.uga.edu/veg/solanaceous/broadmite.htm

One thing this matched is my own observation that it doesn't take a large number of these very small pests to do significant damage. Even a small number of BMs can cause significant damage, even after they are eradicated.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

holy shit something interesting happened!!!!!

 

[Crooked8]

What??

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

ha sorry. just emailed the lab back so..........
the dud in question was negative for phytoplasma.
not tested for any of the tmv family of viruses.
positive for pythium but they were skeptical that it was at the root of the problem. they said it was a normal finding for any plant.
they said it was negative for both veticilium and fusarium.
on the NON-DUD wifi that was presenting variegation that i tested just for curiositys sake, negative for all the whole family of tmv including sunnhemp virus.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

i need to get another sample of it to getto the lab they want to do further diagnostics. i think they are enjoying the puzzle. they asked some good questions. they mentioned that in vitro culture can change dna and produce off specimens. i had no idea. i would have guessed that to be not possible. shows what i know. i dont know whether that had ever happened to this one but id be willing to bet that the sour dub didnt and neither did the gg4. but maybe. did sunset do an en vitro cloning of gg4? was sour dub cloned invitro by p.o. or whoever had her before she dudded. before it was dudded. greyskull? it still wouldnt answer the question as to why other cuts in the room will also start dudding. probably a dead end but the pathologist asked.

 

[Greyskull]

in vitro... thats molecular level stuff, correct?
NOT ME
I can barely type that out much less perform it hahahaha

edit: at that time i was cloning with a 60 site ez cloner...

I thought sunset bought a tissue culture machine but that was post cup stuff as far as I can recall..

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

in vitro... thats molecular level stuff, correct?
NOT ME

yes cellular not molecular (you get it) but no, not necessarily. so while yes, it it can be done down to very small clusters of cells, it can also be done with pieces that are as big as the tip of you finger.

in vitro just means "in glass". in other words, cloned in a petri dish of medium (rooting gel). its really not to different than what we all already do with rockwool in domes.

tissue culture is just a really fancy way of saying making a really tiny clone in a jar of rooting gel. you essentially are doing the same thing as making a cutting. however due to the very tiny size of the cutting the timeframe is much slower and the surface area of the plant is a much more covered in an open cut percentage wise. this leaves the medium and the plant very susceptible to germs. it will get contaminated if not done under sterile conditions. the tissue culture machine is just a big box that flows extremely clean filtered air into a work station so that its constantly blowing outward. the only air that can get to the work area is super sterile air blown through a hepa filter. therefore it cant get contaminated by airborn dust particles carrying germs etc. its called a laminar flow hood. perti dishes and tools are prepared in a pressure cooker and are unwrapped in the hood. everything is sterilized and resterilized while working using alcohol or other disinfectants and/or heat/flame.the plant material is stirred in bleach water for five minutes before it is hacked into tinier pieces. then there is an even tinier version of this where you take the new leaf buds that are so small that they havent even been decided as leaf buds. its the emerging cell clusters that will be leaf buds tomorrow located just inside the tiniest premature leaf nubs that are at the tip of every vegetating branch. under a scope you peel back the tiniest newly forming leaves and with a scalpel slice out the nubby new cell growth. the apical dome meristem cells. they are really small. these have not yet been infected by host plants viruses in a lot of cases.

btw greyskull

you dont lack the ability just the equipment. you are a talented grower that would find this to be childs play with the right equipment. if i can do it, you would be more than proficient. im a fucking idiot. a nerdy maniacal idiot, but an idiot no less. you are clearly a competent and talented grower able to implement tools and use materials to create life with a play book. its actually harder than youd think for a lot of people. you seem to be a natural. fancy words are just fancy words. you have fancy weed. thats harder to produce than memorizing all the applied jargon in the scientific lexicon of botany. i think youd do fine.

 

[robotwithdreams]

Regalia users

Regalia users

I noticed couple users in this thread and elsewhere using regalia as a preventative measure but also using teas and stuff like og bio. I thought that regalia would counter the beneficial bacteria and beneficial fungi. Am I misunderstanding what regalia does ?

 

[whatthe215]

Regalia IS a beneficial fungi. It will not hurt other beneficial bacteria or fungi.

Str8edge, thanks for getting the tests done. Respect.

 

[whatthe215]

I was in a hydro shop last week and I brought up the dud thing with an employee that I know frequents the forums. He said "Oh bro I know what it is, my homie emailed me the answer."

Phytophthora aka The Plant Destroyer

I dunno.. thought I'd throw it out there. The symptoms don't match up as well as Phytoplasmas.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

yeah i have to admit i was shocked to not have the phytoplasmas show up. im almost in disbelief. i am going to get it redone when i test for tmv etc.. ill add Phytophthora to the tests.any luck with your tests? i seem to remember you mentioning something.

I was in a hydro shop last week and I brought up the dud thing with an employee that I know frequents the forums. He said "Oh bro I know what it is, my homie emailed me the answer."

aka The Plant Destroyer

I dunno.. thought I'd throw it out there. The symptoms don't match up as well as Phytoplasmas.

 

[RetroGrow]

If Phytophthora is suspected, a sample of infected wood and bark should be collected and screened using a field ELISA
detection kit or submitted to a diagnostic lab for testing and confirmation.
In addition to these practices, soil applications of systemic fungicides may help arrest further development of the disease. In California, Copper fungicide sprays to the bark are being
recommended to prevent infection by the Phytophthora that causes Sudden Oak Death.
http://www.bartlett.com/resources/Phytophthora-Canker.cfm


Symptoms of root rot vary depending on the susceptibility of the plant species, the virulence of the specific Phytophthora species and site (environmental)conditions. A chronic form of the disease causes a slow, progressive decline with a reduction in shoot growth, small leaves, thinning of the crown, chlorosis, twig and branch dieback and eventually death. Diseased roots are discolored, lack fine roots, and are pulled apart easily.
Rapid wilting and death of the entire plant characterize the acute form of the disease. Phytophthora lesions
may extend into the root collar, which causes girdling of the stem and rapid collapse of the crown.

http://www.bartlett.com/resources/Phytophthora-Root-Rot.pdf

Links for phytophthora:
http://usdasearch.usda.gov/search?utf8=?&affiliate=usda-aphis&query=Phytophthora&commit=Search

Note: this is a form of root rot, so symptoms are a decaying, weak root system. Has anyone seen root rot on their duds?
No one's mentioned it.

There is already an entire thread on it here:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=233001

What Ed Rosenthal has to say about it:


Several different organisms cause stem rot. If the soil is warm, above 70F, the culprit is probably Rhizoctonia solani. Its symptoms are lesions in the stems at the soil line. Pythium spp. are active in cool wet soils, and are often associated with poor drainage. The stem turns black and slimy slightly above the soil line. Phytophthora spp. usually attack adult plants but may also attack stems of seedlings, causing brown to blackish rot similar to Pythium. It may also be caused by Fusarium, Sclerotinia, Sclerotium, Botrytis or other species. All of these organisms are found in soils and remain in dormant stages almost indefinitely until conditions appear that are favorable to their growth. They are easily transported from contaminated soil and plant matter by dirty gloves, contaminated tools and even footwear.

There are several things you can do to prevent these fungi from attacking your seedlings and cuttings. For best results, work and keep your starts in a clean, hygienic area. Wash all tools and equipment using detergent. Sterilize them with 3% hydrogen peroxide (H2O2). Use sterile or pasteurized planting mix or planting cubes. For the first few days use water with 1% H2O2. Drugstore H2O2 is 3%, so mix it with two parts water. This sterilizes the water and planting mix, killing pathogens. Seeds started outside are less likely to be attacked by stem rot. Even so, use soil or mix high in compost content or watered with compost tea to lower the chances of being attacked. This has been proven to lower rates of fungal attack. Humic and fulvic acids prevent fungal attacks and support plant immune systems to fight them off. Add these liquids to the water solution. Water early in the light cycle so plants have a chance to dry. Avoid getting the stems wet or letting them stand in water, as moisture promotes fungal activity. Give seedlings plenty of light, warm cozy conditions and nutrients so they grow fast, are vigorous and have strong immune systems.

Spices that have anti-fungal qualities, such as chamomile, cinnamon, clove and stinging nettle, can be used to prevent attack. Their powders can be sprinkled on the soil surface, or brewed into a tea that is cooled and used as a spray. Also, their oils (available in health food stores) can be diluted and sprayed on the plant. To dilute the oil, first mix it in alcohol and then add to the water, using 1-2 teaspoons per gallon. Powdered charcoal sprinkled lightly on the soil surface also suppresses the diseases.

Several organisms can be used to prevent fungal attacks that are benign to humans and pets and listed as bioorganic fungus suppressors. The primary damping-off culprits are prey for other fungi commonly called mycorrhizae. The predators have different lifestyles, but all prey on Pythium, Phytophthora, Rhizoctonia and other fungi. Three species that are available commercially are Streptomyces griseoviridis, Trichoderma virens and Trichoderma harzianum. Streptomyces griseoviridis is a fungus applied after mixing in water. The spores germinate and the mycelium forms protective shields around the root system releasing root-stimulating hormones. They earn their living by trading essential nutrients to the roots for carbohydrates produced by the plant, and are the active ingredient in Mycostop.
Fortunately, I always use humic & fulvic acids to boost plant's immune response (Florilicious Plus), along with aspirin.
Also, I always start in seed starter mix from Fox Farms, which has mycorrhizae, and I grow in coco, which has trichoderma, both natural predators of phytophthora, so I doubt I would ever get this.

 

[amannamedtruth]

yea i have a feeling that it isnt phytophthora. after looking at the inner part of a plant stem, there isn't any indication of rot....

Could Dudding be a natural response a plant has to low water situations? say...it kills off a branch to relieve the stress from not enough water, in order to save the whole plant?

Or...could having a dry patch in the soil cause part of the roots to die, thus part of the plant?

What is the medium most people are using?

I use 1/3 compost, 1/3 sunshine mix 4, 1/3 coco....Could this just be due to the fact that coco needs constant hydration?

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

no i dont think so. one thing people seem to leave out of these guesses is that you gotta account for it being a new and emerging problem. think less than 5 year old phenomena. and then start from there. the nutrient thing, water issues, clone cutting techniques,and dna being exhausted all are reasonable to explore until you factor in the part where it started showing up fairly recently and seems to be spreading. people have been underwatering plants in every imagineable medium with over and under fertilized water for decades. cutting a clone of a clone of a clone is a very old practice and certainly shouldnt be affecting say ...gg4 and not arcata trainwreck or chem or purple urkle til now. how long have people been taking crappy clones? id say since the seventies. when did the specific type of ill performance start being reported? 2011?im guessing its not strictly or simply cultural, not to say some clue doesnt lie within cultural practices. we gotta keep that in the equation if we are going to take a stab at whats causing this.

yea i have a feeling that it isnt phytophthora. after looking at the inner part of a plant stem, there isn't any indication of rot....

Could Dudding be a natural response a plant has to low water situations? say...it kills off a branch to relieve the stress from not enough water, in order to save the whole plant?

Or...could having a dry patch in the soil cause part of the roots to die, thus part of the plant?

What is the medium most people are using?

I use 1/3 compost, 1/3 sunshine mix 4, 1/3 coco....Could this just be due to the fact that coco needs constant hydration?

 

[mojave green]

well I have had some of DJ'a blue berrys look like total twisted up crazy looking mutant things. wouldent even suggest they were duds or infected

my lapis mtn indica can get pretty freaky too. specially after topping.

 

[papaduc]

I think I've got a pretty good idea what the problem is you know fellas.

Haven't got time right now to explain but I will. And it's nothing to do with any virus or bacteria and it is, in my opinion, something completely unrelated and nothing to do with feeding.

 

[Greyskull]

thats quite a flip of the script....
what you got?