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Dud Identification Collective Knowledge.

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Storm Shadow

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http://www.cra-pav.it/petria/n19/19-3.pdf

Induction of resistance IN THE control of
phytoplasma diseases

Phytoplasma are small, insect-transmitted, cell-wall-less bacteria that cause
numerous diseases in economically and environmentally important plant species
worldwide (McCoy et al., 1989; Lee et al., 2000; Seemüller et al., 2002; Martelli
and Boudon-Padieu, 2006; Weintraub and Beanland, 2006; Bertaccini et al., 2007;
Firrao et al., 2007; Hogenhout et al., 2008). The impossibility of cultivating them
in vitro has blocked the development of methods of control against these pathogens.
Indeed, other strategies have been tested, namely: (i) production of transgenic plants
expressing antibodies against the major phytoplasma membrane protein (Le Gall et al.,
1998; Malembic-Maher et al., 2005); (ii) production of transgenic plants expressing
antimicrobial peptides (Zhao et al., 2004; Du et al., 2005); and (iii) protecting the
plants using elicitins (cryptogein or oligandrin), small proteins that stimulate P protein
plugs and callose release in phloem sieve elements (Lherminier et al., 2003). Other
approaches for the control of phytoplasma are not directed against the pathogen, but
are based instead on the selection of resistant, tolerant or immune plant varieties. They
have so far been investigated by phytoplasma inoculation, symptom observation and
variety selection (Jaraush et al., 1999; Sinclair et al., 2000), and also marker-assisted
selection programmes (Cardena et al., 2003). This undirected control strategy is not
always possible, because not all phytoplasma-infected plant species show resistance
or tolerance versus to disease. A promising approach has become more prominent
recently through significant studies of different groups that have addressed the
exploitation of knowledge concerning natural or induced resistance to plant bacteria,
and in particular to phytoplasma. Indeed, the existence of different forms of life within
the plant is a basic concept that can be developed for the design of possible alternatives
and strategies for phytoplasma disease control.
 

Storm Shadow

Well-known member
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http://www.bulletinofinsectology.org/pdfarticles/vol64-2011-S197-S198kaewmanee.pdf

Evaluation of the efficiency of various treatments used for
sugarcane white leaf phytoplasma control

Abstract
The objective of this study was to evaluate and compare the efficiency of various treatments used for sugarcane white leaf phytoplasma control and quantify the amount of phytoplasma after using different treatments. Different treatments were used with cane stalks to attempt to reduce the phytoplasma concentration as follows; control (no treatment), dual hot water treatment, hot water followed by cold water, and hot water followed by tetracycline HCl 500 ppm. The results showed that the control had the highest percentage of sugarcane white leaf phytoplasma at 100%, followed by the use of hot water, followed by cold water at 95.24%,dual hot water at 90.48% and hot water+tetracycline HCl 500 ppm at 71.43%. Moreover, the control had the highest quantification of the amount of SCWL phytoplasma at 158.71 copies/sample, followed by the use of hot water+cold water, dual hot water and hot water+tetracycline HCl with the amount of phytoplasma at 31.50, 10.99 and 3.72·10-2 copies/sample, respectively. The control without any treatment had the highest cane germination at 77.5%, followed by the use of hot water followed by cold water, hot water followed by tetracycline HCl, and dual hot water with germination rates at 42.5%, 5% and 2.5% respectively. In conclusion, soaking cane stalks in hot water, followed by tetracycline HCl can reduce the percentage of SCWL phytoplasma more than other treatments whereas the cane germination rate is comparatively low.

 

stasis

Registered Non-Conformist
Veteran
Thread Hijacked. The whole growing community in Mendo never contracted these diseases., I saw so many people;s gardens... Yes, it's true, there are a couple growers up there with which to sample visually the challenges that people face. 3 of four homes in fact.

Concentrate on the BM / Cyclamen scourge or regret it.

Go ahead with Your new found neg rep button. Some folks seem to agree with Me wholeheartedly. Doesn't matter either way.
Beating the Problem is all that matters, Folks.

I want the truth to be disseminated. 99% of the Commonly-Seen Dud problem are related to tarsonemids..

Rebels are vilified even in such seemingly diverse groups.
 

RetroGrow

Active member
Veteran
Yes, BMs/Cyclamens cause duds. There are other kinds of duds also. Some strains are prone to "dudding", the sour Dubb line being one. There were also some GG4 duds, which still have not been explained. The point is, not ALL duds are caused by BMs, although they are definitely the main cause.
As far as the thread being hijacked, it's the same crap he pulled in the broad mite thread. He posts pages & pages of repetitive stuff in BIG letters, so as to be the alpha dog in the thread. He attacked and neg repped every post by anyone offering alternative solutions to drowning plants with toxins, and then intentionally got the thread binned. Not too many of us are growing sugar cane or date palms or elm trees, so I won't be using tetracycline anytime soon. Until some lab analysis comes in from some "dudded" material, this is speculation, and we won't know for sure.
The best thing you can do for your plants in a hostile universe is boost their natural immune system, by giving aspirin, willow water, or aloe. Any of these will aid plant in fighting off pathogens.
 

xxxstr8edgexxx

Active member
Veteran
well if it is the same pathogen i think the techniques would be relevant as they seem to be inducing enviroments and antibioticd that the organism cannot handle and would seem to me would be transferrable to another plant. the plant is relevant in so much as whether it can survive the heat treatments that the phytoplasm cannot. fact remains that this syndrom very closely mimics phytoplasm senn not only in other species but also cannabis. associations with broadmites seem explainable as they are vectors so it would be totally normal that folks would view the never before seen symptons with the pest they had when it started. that does not explain the repititious pattern through propigation by cuts. phytoplasm would explain both of these trends. i dont know what it is and any evidence at this point is hypothesis until lab results from a pcr which amplifies the dna with the primers for phytoplasma come back positive. we havent recieved results back yet or found an available lab to run enough data sets to draw any conclusive evidence tomake any sweeping statements. i for one am of the opinion that these phytoplasmas make more sense than bms being the sole cause of the pathology. but this is all conjecture until we can run a pcr. if you can find a lab that will do a sangar protocol on the phytoplasma species it would feesable to send in samples run under a different plant name tomato etc. where as next generation or high through put protocols will reveal the plant used.food for thought.
Yes, BMs/Cyclamens cause duds. There are other kinds of duds also. Some strains are prone to "dudding", the sour Dubb line being one. There were also some GG4 duds, which still have not been explained. The point is, not ALL duds are caused by BMs, although they are definitely the main cause.
As far as the thread being hijacked, it's the same crap he pulled in the broad mite thread. He posts pages & pages of repetitive stuff in BIG letters, so as to be the alpha dog in the thread. He attacked and neg repped every post by anyone offering alternative solutions to drowning plants with toxins, and then intentionally got the thread binned. Not too many of us are growing sugar cane or date palms or elm trees, so I won't be using tetracycline anytime soon. Until some lab analysis comes in from some "dudded" material, this is speculation, and we won't know for sure.
The best thing you can do for your plants in a hostile universe is boost their natural immune system, by giving aspirin, willow water, or aloe. Any of these will aid plant in fighting off pathogens.
 

Storm Shadow

Well-known member
Veteran
I see this thread is now getting filled with echos from Closets ...

No pics... No Exp... Lots of Opinion... yeah sounds like Retro to me and of course... 325mg to be exact !

Sorry if the reading is a bit out of your league... but since you have never exp this problem...go figure you wouldn't know how to digest the valuable information I have posted...

Serious dude... what have or do you contribute to this forum? Lately its been a lot of ass kissing to people and pointless junk in the tokers den... go learn how to grow

Stasis.... your now entering Retro waters...Stop before you soon earn his Douche status
 

stasis

Registered Non-Conformist
Veteran
OK I give up, overthinking is as daunting as underthniking. Got things to do.

 

RetroGrow

Active member
Veteran
i dont know what it is and any evidence at this point is hypothesis until lab results from a pcr which amplifies the dna with the primers for phytoplasma come back positive. we havent recieved results back yet or found an available lab to run enough data sets to draw any conclusive evidence tomake any sweeping statements. i for one am of the opinion that these phytoplasmas make more sense than bms being the sole cause of the pathology. but this is all conjecture until we can run a pcr. if you can find a lab that will do a sangar protocol on the phytoplasma species it would feesable to send in samples run under a different plant name tomato etc. where as next generation or high through put protocols will reveal the plant used.food for thought.

That's what I have been saying all along. Test results.
And why do you think there is only one sole cause of duds, when several have already been identified?
 

FatherEarth

Active member
Veteran
Seems like broad mites can also infect the minds of growers/ farmers as well... I have encountered a few that have been highly paranoid about these pests and insistent they are everywhere. Even destroying groups of healthy plants without ever seeing a BM. Burning plants and heating up their growrooms... kinda wild now that I think about it..
 

headees

Active member
Seems like broad mites can also infect the minds of growers/ farmers as well... I have encountered a few that have been highly paranoid about these pests and insistent they are everywhere. Even destroying groups of healthy plants without ever seeing a BM. Burning plants and heating up their growrooms... kinda wild now that I think about it..

Look at my thread titled 'severely sick OG cross'. I have never seen these things in my life and now have a full blown case of them that absolutely ravaged all my moms. Maybe a bit of paranoia is a good thing regarding these guys, seems theres a virtual epidemic right now judging by all these posts.
 

xxxstr8edgexxx

Active member
Veteran
paranoia and healthy caution.hmmmmmm a nice scope can be the difference.

Look at my thread titled 'severely sick OG cross'. I have never seen these things in my life and now have a full blown case of them that absolutely ravaged all my moms. Maybe a bit of paranoia is a good thing regarding these guys, seems theres a virtual epidemic right now judging by all these posts.
 

RetroGrow

Active member
Veteran
I see this thread is now getting filled with echos from Closets ...

No pics... No Exp... Lots of Opinion... yeah sounds like Retro to me and of course... 325mg to be exact !

Sorry if the reading is a bit out of your league... but since you have never exp this problem...go figure you wouldn't know how to digest the valuable information I have posted...

Serious dude... what have or do you contribute to this forum? Lately its been a lot of ass kissing to people and pointless junk in the tokers den... go learn how to grow

Stasis.... your now entering Retro waters...Stop before you soon earn his Douche status

The loud mouthed braggart is talking chit again, calling other people names, when he is the biggest DB on the site. Being a loud mouthed braggart is his version of "culture". I would personally never smoke any poisoned weed he grew. We need laws to protect consumers from unscrupulous commercial growers like him. Testing for pesticides should be mandatory. Guys like him do not care about the health of their customers. They just want to get product out the door. That's why he gets every "plague of the month", and passes it around.
The vector of these duds is him. :biggrin:
 

whatthe215

Active member
Veteran
When people talk shit on the boards, they lose credibility. It's immature.

I appreciate Storms sharing, he's got a ton of experience and might have an answer, a treatment AND the academic research to back it up. That is worth so much and rare on the boards. AND he's sharing some really awesome cannabis literature that might just have more information than this whole forum. At minimum, the bullshit arguing to useful information ratio is infinitely better than ICmag. But c'mon Storm, you know the insults don't help at all... it just riles people up. And it detracts from the professionalism of your message.

Retro, you're talking just as much shit and saying just as many names. What's the point? State your opinion, share your experience, answer peoples questions and contribute to the discussion in a RESPECTFUL professional way. Don't discredit Storm Shadow, he's got more experience, knowledge and great photos than you and I... 99.9% of us. He puts in a lot of work that a lot of people appreciate.
 

Sam_Skunkman

"RESIN BREEDER"
Moderator
Veteran
I also like some of Storm Shadow's references but wish they were all Cannabis specific.
As for fighting online, it does not help anyone, and often makes the poster look petty.
Few are innocent....it does take two to tango...
-SamS
 

Storm Shadow

Well-known member
Veteran
http://www.agannex.com/energy/aster-yellows-outbreak-biggest-in-years

Aster yellows outbreak biggest in years

Sporadic outbreaks are becoming more frequent

By now, aster yellows phytoplasma has received its fair amount of attention, and although the disease occurs sporadically, and has been studied around the world, there are still many unanswered questions. How can it be controlled? How can it be predicted? Can spraying leafhoppers prevent infection? Will it be back in 2013?
“Phytoplasmas are interesting to study. We don’t know how to grow them or how they reproduce, but we do know how to identify them and how they are spread,” says Chrystel Olivier, an entomologist with Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada (AAFC) at the Saskatoon Research Centre.
Aster yellows 101
Aster yellows is a phytoplasma organism. Phytoplasmas are specialized wall-less bacteria that are parasites known to multiply only in plant phloem tissue and insect vectors. Sap-sucking insects carry aster yellows, and these infected insects spread infection by moving and feeding from plant to plant. Olivier says seven different phytoplasma groups have been identified in Canada, with aster yellows the most common and widespread.
leafhopper1.jpg

The aster leafhopper (Macrosteles quadrilineatus) is the primary carrier of aster yellows, although the leafhopper species (Amplicephalus inimicus) is also an important AY vector in cereals. Aster yellows can only survive inside plant or insect hosts. Most aster yellows infections arrive with infected leafhoppers originating on winds from the southeastern and central United States. Few leafhoppers can overwinter in Canada.
The aster leafhopper feeds on many crops including canola, camelina, flax, cereals, herbs and spices, pea, chickpea, sunflower, alfalfa and bromegrass. Worldwide, as many as 30 insect species, though, can transmit the disease to a wide range of host plant species.
The aster yellows phytoplasma can overwinter in the roots and dormant tissues of perennial plants such as dandelion and quackgrass, and shrubs. An uninfected leafhopper can be infected when it ingests the aster yellows phytoplasma during feeding. In two to four weeks, the phytoplasma multiplies within the leafhopper, and other plants may be infected when the leafhopper injects the phytoplasma into the plant while it feeds.
“Infected perennial plants are a strong disease reservoir,” says Olivier, who adds they don’t know the extent of the reservoir on the Prairies.
Aster yellows has also been detected in the seeds from infected B. rapa and B. napus canola plants, but when these seeds were planted, the phytoplasma was not found in the growing plant. Researchers are not sure why the disease does not develop from infected seed.
Polymerase chain reaction (PCR) tests done at AAFC’s Saskatoon Research Centre in 2013 on canola seeds found phytoplasma DNA in approximately eight percent of seed tested. During a monitoring period from 2002 through 2005, that level was less than one percent, highlighting how much more widespread and impactful the disease was in 2013.
In canola, infected plants show a number of symptoms, including chlorosis, stunting and poor growth. A common, widespread symptom in 2012 was sterile, bladder-like pods and small witches’-broom flower heads. Infection can cause poor seed set and poor seed development with shrivelled and shrunken seed.
In cereals, the symptoms include yellowing leaves, shrivelled heads with distorted awns or floral parts that look like leaves. The disease looks very similar to barley yellow dwarf virus, and the only way to differentiate it is to use a PCR test to detect the phytoplasma DNA.
asteryellow.jpg

What was learned in 2012?
Like other years with high aster yellows infections, 2012 followed a typical pattern. Early winds brought the aster leafhopper to the Prairies in early spring. The presence of the aster leafhopper was directly correlated to the outbreaks in 1957, 2001, 2007 and 2012. However, the number of aster leafhoppers infected by the mycoplasma was much higher in 2012 than in previous outbreaks.
In 2012, the range of aster yellows infection in aster leafhoppers at survey sites across the Prairies extended from three to 45 percent, with an average of 16 percent. In some cases, 20 sweeps would capture up to 500 leafhoppers – a very high number. Normally in any given year, only about one to four percent of leafhoppers carry aster yellows phytoplasma.
“The wind patterns are different at each site, so the levels of infection are variable as well,” notes Olivier. She says researchers can look for visual symptoms, or do a PCR test to determine incidence. The PCR test produces a higher incidence percentage. In canola samples in some fields in 2012, incidence based on visual symptoms was around 10 percent while the PCR tests found an incidence of 25 percent.
“A very high percentage of plants can be infected but do not show any symptoms,” explains Olivier.
Camelina had a higher incidence level with almost 50 percent incidence in the PCR tests and about 40 percent incidence based on visual symptoms. On cereals, preliminary PCR tests in 2012 found barley infection rates at approximately 25 percent, oats at 17 percent and wheat around five percent. Visual symptoms are difficult to correlate to aster yellows, so no visual estimation of incidence was made in cereals.
Yield losses in 2012 were much higher than in other outbreak years. Research from 2001 through 2005 harvested canola seed from aster yellows-infected plants. Normal-looking seed was separated form shrivelled, misshapen seed. In these years, 30 to 60 percent of seeds from infected plants were small and shrivelled. Often, these light seeds are blown out the back of the combine. If one infected plant produces 30 to 70 percent misshapen seeds, a 0.3 to 0.7 percent yield loss for every one percent incidence of aster yellows in your field could historically be expected.
However in 2012, based on observations made at the AAFC farm and in several fields, roughly 10 percent of the canola plants had no seeds and 20 to 25 percent of the symptomatic plants contained mostly shrivelled seeds. The rest of the AY-infected plants had a mixture of normal-looking seeds and shrivelled seeds. The old yield loss rule of thumb may not have applied in 2012, but even using the old rule of thumb researchers would have estimated a three to seven percent yield loss. What the real yield loss in 2012 was is only a guess.
Is 2013 another year of concern?
As Olivier pointed out, southern winds are arriving earlier and they are well correlated with aster yellows outbreaks of 2012 and 2007. In addition, warmer winters may mean higher survival of phytoplasmas in perennial plants, and greater numbers of overwintered leafhopper adults.
“We can’t predict the wind, but one clue is when the southern winds carrying the leafhoppers arrive,” says Olivier. “During the past five years, the first southern winds started in April, rather than May and June. This means the inoculum is coming earlier and warmer winters induce a higher probability of survival of the phytoplasma.”
Earlier arrival also means more opportunity for leafhoppers to multiply and spread the infection from plant to plant. In 2013, with the possibility of a higher than normal inoculum carryover in perennial weeds from the heavy infestations in plants in 2012, early arrival may result in a rebound of the disease – but that is very much dependent on the winds and weather in the spring.
Control is not yet possible
One approach kicked around is whether controlling the insect vectors will control aster yellows infections. Unfortunately, insecticidal control of leafhoppers is impractical, as the leafhoppers can arrive on several waves of southerly winds, requiring several spray applications. In addition, insecticide applications would have to be based on the expectation that the leafhoppers would infect plants, as there is a two- to six-week period between plant infection and symptom development in canola.
“When symptoms are observed, it is too late to spray,” says Olivier. “And the insecticide applications would have a negative impact on beneficial insects as well.”
Currently, no varieties are resistant to aster yellows. Some small plot screening has been done for resistance, and some lines may be a little less susceptible. However, Olivier cautions that the differences might just be differences in leafhopper pressure in the plots.
Weed management may help to minimize the disease. Weed abundance and diversity favours leafhopper populations, and could result in greater levels of disease transmission. Controlling perennial weeds can also help reduce the carryover of phytoplasma infection from year to year.
“There are many unknowns,” says Olivier. “Phytoplasmas are difficult to study and to control. There aren’t a lot of solutions.”
dateofleafhopper.jpg




Anybody else notice that 2007 in red? Sour Dubble Era
 

RetroGrow

Active member
Veteran
The problem with all this speculation about phytoplasmas, none of the pests that cannabis growers have to deal with are known vectors. The vectors of phytoplasmas are known. It's not a mystery.
Insect vectors of phytoplasmas are limited to leafhoppers, planthoppers, and psyllids.
http://link.springer.com/protocol/10.1007/978-1-62703-089-2_6

Phytoplasmas are phloem-limited; therefore, only phloem-feeding insects can potentially acquire and transmit the phytoplasmas. However, among phloem-feeding insects, relatively few species have been confirmed as vectors of phytoplasmas. Phytoplasma vectors include diverse leafhoppers, four families of planthoppers, and two genera of psyllids.
http://plantpathology.ba.ars.usda.gov/pclass/pclass_vectors.html

"A new and potentially powerful/effective tool is being studied, for controlling transmission of phytoplasmas by insect vectors through the manipulation of symbiotic bacteria in the insects. This approach exploits the fact that many arthropods carry symbiotic microorganisms that are required for life functions of the arthropod host. The hypothesis being tested is that an insect's symbiotic bacteria can be genetically modified to prevent the transmission of pathogens (including phytoplasmas) by the insect. Another possibility relates to the fact that phytoplasma vectors obtain nutrients through feeding on phloem tissue; thus, it may be possible to utilize the carbohydrate-binding properties of compounds such as plant lectins to interfere with the insect's nutrition, hindering the vector's capabilities.
http://plantpathology.ba.ars.usda.gov/pclass/pclass_vectors.html

Problem is, none of the known insect vectors of phytoplasmas are pests of cannabis, and there has been no laboratory results confirming such an infection in anyone's cannabis sample. Fungus gnats, thrips, spider mites, etc., are not carriers.
Anyone have leaf hoppers in their outdoor gardens?
 

Sam_Skunkman

"RESIN BREEDER"
Moderator
Veteran
I have had small amounts of glasshouse leaf hoppers, Hauptidia maroccana in my greenhouse many years, they fly into the windows like thrips do. I use lacewings, ladybugs, and other predators for control.
-SamS
 
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gaiusmarius

me
Veteran
When people talk shit on the boards, they lose credibility. It's immature.

I appreciate Storms sharing, he's got a ton of experience and might have an answer, a treatment AND the academic research to back it up. That is worth so much and rare on the boards. AND he's sharing some really awesome cannabis literature that might just have more information than this whole forum. At minimum, the bullshit arguing to useful information ratio is infinitely better than ICmag. But c'mon Storm, you know the insults don't help at all... it just riles people up. And it detracts from the professionalism of your message.

Retro, you're talking just as much shit and saying just as many names. What's the point? State your opinion, share your experience, answer peoples questions and contribute to the discussion in a RESPECTFUL professional way. Don't discredit Storm Shadow, he's got more experience, knowledge and great photos than you and I... 99.9% of us. He puts in a lot of work that a lot of people appreciate.

I also like some of Storm Shadow's references but wish they were all Cannabis specific.
As for fighting online, it does not help anyone, and often makes the poster look petty.
Few are innocent....it does take two to tango...
-SamS

quoted for truth! :yeahthats

please Storm and Retro, just don't post about each other, your personal issues with each other are not really very interesting for the rest of us. also not helpful for the threads general vibe. thanks.
 
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