Dud Identification Collective Knowledge.

[Sam_Skunkman]

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Those fan leaves with the overlapping blades - thats the "webbed" look that screams "I'M A DUDD!!!!"

btw thats high life 45's pic

I do not see it.
I have varieties that have overlapping blades, they do not have BM. I know Cannabis pests better then anyone I have ever met, I fought them for decades using IPM, and am very sucessful. I did write a book about Cannabis and pests.
If this plant has a virus or other pathogen spread by broad mites, I don't see it. I do not see any BM damage, but I would need to use a scope and check out the leaves undersides. Yes, viruses and other pathogens can be spread by seed, but remember many Cannabis viruses are symtom free in Cannabis. If it is a disease then maybe farmers in Colorado can go to the Colorado State Department of Agriculture Biochemistry Laboratory and ask for help, they can ID BM and/or maybe find if the plant has a virus, from here I am just guessing.
Maybe in Calif you can use state Agri labs like the State Plant Health & Pest Prevention Service that will help with Cannabis grown by legal medical users? I do not know, but it can't be hard to check, give them a call.
I use the state agri labs here in the Netherlands, they have helped quite a bit in the past. I also worked closely with Kopert here, they tested several new controls with Cannabis in my greenhouse before introducing the controls to everyone.
Good luck, and do not presume you know the problem or the solutions, find the problem then find solutions, if there are any.
-SamS

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

virus can be cleared in a lab setting

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

OTHER POTENTIAL CAUSES OF DUDS BESIDES BROAD MITES, CYCLEMEN MITES, RUSSET MITES:

virus can be cleared in a lab setting

Which viruses, which lab? How do they confirm the plant had a virus and confirm it is now gone? I know it can be done in theory.
Cannabis can get a lot of viruses....
Most info from the book "Hemp Diseases and Pests"

VIRUSES:
TRSV, Tobacco Ringspot Virus ELISA, nematode spreads and a little by insects
TSV, Tobacco Streak Virus Thrips
TomRSV, Tomato RingSpot Virus PCR, Yellow Vein — Tomato ringspot virus — ToRSV
 causes yellow vein disease. A similar disease is caused by tobacco ringspot virus. These viruses are transmitted by several species of nematodes including X. americanum, X. californicum,
and X. rivesi.
CMV, Cucumber Mosaic Virus ELISA, PCR, aphids, nematodes? seeds can transmit
ERSV, Eunoymous Ring Spot Virus
AMV, Alfalfa Mosaic Virus ELISA, aphids, seeds can transmit, Envirologix kit maybe? http://www.envirologix.com/artman/publish/indexplantpath.shtml
http://www.envirologix.com/artman/publish/article_370.shtml
EMV, Elm Mosaic Virus
TMV, Tobacco Mosaic Virus PCR,
FMV, Foxtail Mosaic Virus
BBWV, Broad Bean Wilt fabaVirus ELISA,
ArMV, Arabis Mosaic Virus ELISA, PCR, Several nematode species can transmit
ArMV the most common being Xiphinema diversicaudatum. seeds can transmit
HSV, Hemp Streak Virus, seeds can transmit
RRV, Rasberry RingSpot nepoVirus “nepovirus” “ne” for nematode, “po” for polyhedral.
PVX, Potato Virus X ELISA,
PVY, Potato Virus Y ELISA,
HMV, Hemp Mosaic Virus, seeds can transmit

Spread by plant sap, pollen, seeds, insects even bees, nematodes, soil borne zoosporic protozoatools, tools, people...
HSV, AMV, CMV, ArMV, HMV are all spread by seeds.



BACTERIA:

Most info from Hemp Diseases and Pests pg 144-147
Bacterial Blight, aka, Bacterial Leaf Spot

Pseudomonas syringae pv. cannabina


Striatura Ulcerosa

Pseudomonas syringae pv. mori


Xanthomonas Blight

Xanthomonas campestris pv. cannabis


Wildfire Leaf Spot

Pseudomonas syringae pv. tabaci


Wisconsin Leaf Spot

Pseudomonas syringae pv. mellea


Crown Gall

Agrobacterium tumefaciens


Bacterial Wilt

Erwinia tracheiphila


Phytoplasmas

Pseudomonas
A tumefaciens

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Molecular characterization of Aster yellows (16SrI) group
phytoplasma infecting Cannabis sativa in eastern Uttar Pradesh

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...ob3Hf8Is_wFo2XtdFB5TGSQ&bvm=bv.66917471,d.b2k

New Disease Reports (2008) 17, 16.
'Candidatus Phytoplasma asteris' (group 16SrI) associated with a witches'-broom disease of Cannabis sativa in India
S.K. Raj*, S. K. Snehi, M.S. Khan and S. Kumar

Plant Virology, National Botanical Research Institute, Lucknow-2260 01, U.P., India

http://www.ndrs.org.uk/article.php?id=017016

Indian Journal of Scientific Research
Year : 2011, Volume : 2, Issue : 4
First page : ( 121) Last page : ( 124)

Witche's Broom and Phyllody Like Symptoms of Diseases in Acalypha indica L. and Cannabis sativa L.- A New Report from Champaran, North Bihar

Singh R.B.a,1, Gupta P.K.b
Cytogenetics Lab., P.G. Deptt. of Botany, M.S. College, Motihari, Bihar
Research Plantica, Near S.N.S. College, Motihari, Bihar,

http://iijfmt.indianjournals.com/ijor.aspx?target=ijor:ijsr1&volume=2&issue=4&article=024

If you only focus on viruses or insects, you miss bacterial disease, nematodes....
-SamS

Also found similar problems in China and Iran.

Title: First report of witches’-broom disease in a Cannabis species and its association with a phytoplasma of elm yellows group (16SrV)
Authors
Zhao, Yan
Sun, Qingrong - TAIAN PEOPLES REP CHINA
Davis, Robert
Lee, Ing Ming
Liu, Qingzhong - TAIAN PEOPLES REP CHINA
Submitted to: Plant Disease
Publication Type: Peer Reviewed Journal
Publication Acceptance Date: October 15, 2006
Publication Date: February 1, 2007
Citation: Zhao, Y., Sun, Q., Davis, R.E., Lee, I., Liu, Q. 2007. First report of witches’-broom disease in a Cannabis species and its association with a phytoplasma of elm yellows group (16SrV). Plant Disease. 91:227.

http://apsjournals.apsnet.org/doi/abs/10.1094/PDIS-91-2-0227C


Characterization of Stolbur (16SrXII) Group Phytoplasmas Associated with Cannabis sativa Witches'-broom Disease in Iran
AUTHOR(S)Sichani, Fereshteh Vali; Bahar, Masoud; Zirak, Leila
PUB. DATEDecember 2011
Plant Pathology Journal;Dec2011, Vol. 10 Issue 4, p161

http://docsdrive.com/pdfs/ansinet/ppj/2011/161-167.pdf
http://www.oalib.com/paper/2284171


NEMATODES
You still need to ID the nematodes you found. As well as any other pathogens or pests you may have, take it to the lab OK?
There are some 500 species of nematodes that are plant parasites, but only a few effect Cannabis, Not all nematodes are bad news some are beneficial and prey on pests.

Root Knot Nematodes
Meloidogyne species include
Meloidogyne incognita, Southern Root Knot Nematode
Meloidogyne hapla, Northern Root Knot Nematode
Meloidogyne javanica, Java Root Knot Nematode

Cyst Nematodes
Heterodera schachtii, Sugar Beet Cyst Nematode
Heterodera humuli, Hops Cyst Nematode

Stem Nematode (this is the Alfalfa Stem Nematode) also called the Long Stem Nematode
Ditylenchus dipsaci

Root Lesion Nematode
Pratylenchus penetrans

Needle Nematode
Paralongidorus maximus

Spiral Nematodes
Heliocotylenchus & Scutellonema species

Reniform Nematodes
Rotylenchuls species

Cannabis was used in rotation with sugar beet crops in the Netherlands, to suppress the nematodes that caused problems for the sugar beets, worked great. There are bacterial and fungal bio-controls like bacterium Burkholderia (Pseudomonas) cepacia, against lesion, sting, lance, sprial nematodes.

Fungus, Myrothecium Verrucaria, for Meloidogyne, Heterodera, Pratylenchus, Xiphinema species.
Arthrobotrys robusta & Dactylaria superba species, for Ditylenchus & Meloidogyne species.

Bacterium, Pasturia (Bacillus) penetrans, for Meloidogyne, Heterodera, Ditylenchus, Paralongidorus, Pratylenchus species.

Fungus, Verticillium chlamydosporium kill many nematode species.

Fungus, Hirsutella rhossiliensis for Heterodera, Meloidogyne, Ditylenchus, Pratylenchus, Xiphinema species as well as killing beneficial nematode species Steinernema and Heterorhabditis.

Nematophthora gynophila, is an obligate parasite of nematodes in the Genus Heterodera.

Beneficial Nematodes
Heterorhabditis bacteriophora
Heterorhabditis indica
Heterorhabditis marelatus
Steinernema carpocapse
Steinernema kraussei
Steinernema feltiae is used against Root Knot Nematodes

Nematodes usually are introduced into new areas with infested soil or plants. (seeds can harbor nematodes on the outside) Prevent nematodes from entering your garden by using only nematode-free plants purchased from reliable suppliers. To prevent the spread of nematodes, avoid moving plants and soil from infested parts of the garden. Don’t allow irrigation water from around infested plants to run off, as this also spreads nematodes. Nematodes can be present in soil attached to tools and equipment used elsewhere, so clean tools thoroughly before using them in your garden.

-SamS

Stem Nematode:
http://utahpests.usu.edu/IPM/htm/field-crops/insects-and-diseases/alfalfa-stem-nematode


Nasty little beast!
Photos below at bottom of post:
The first photo (Fig. 4) Note the needle-like stylets in the heads of these alfalfa stem nematodes.
Next photo (Fig. 5) Dried, but still living nematodes on the surface of leaf debris in a sample of “brown bag” alfalfa seed.
Next photo (Fig. 6) Hair-like, dried nematodes (still living) on the surface of this alfalfa seed from a “brown bag” source of seed.
Next drawing is damage in Cannabis from stem nematodes.
Last is a drawing of a Nematode.

The truth is seeds can give you nematodes, but I have never seen these on Cannabis seeds. (maybe I need to look closer?)
-SamS




http://www.cabi.org/isc/datasheet/19287

All about how to ID, control, and find and remove from on seeds. Great Data!
They list Cannabis as a host plant along with a whole lot more plants.


Ditylenchus dipsaci
Stem Nematode (this is the Alfalfa Stem Nematode) also called the Long Stem Nematode

Natural enemies..................Type
Dactylella lysipaga................Predad or
Drechmeria coniospora.........Pathogen
Hirsutella rhossiliensis..........Pathoge n
Rhizoglyphus echinopus.........Predator

Witches Broom damage found in India, and stem nematode photos & drawings:

 

[bbing]

Hey Grey, do you think this is what Sour Dub was susceptible to early on?
And could tissue culturing (like APE was doing) be helpful in isolating non affected areas?

Oh yeah SamS, I wanted to mention that I came across some really cool video and film of QSMS on you tube..Epic. Not sure if you already been there done that but I recall you dug em.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

Tissue culture yes. But not the run of the mill macrotip culture you can do at home with a kit.

You need to do microtip apical meristem culture using the freshly emerging undifferentiated cells that are less than a few days old at most. This is an advanced technique within tissue culture. It requires a very nice stereo microscope and skill doing this cut as you must only collect the primordial apical stem cell cluster and no ther cells. This must be done under extreme sterile conditions as the risk of contamination is far higher due to the extremely long incubation period.
Yes it does work and is the standard protocol in strawberries.
I am currently working on obtaining a dudded sour dub cut so as to try to diagnose potentially clear it. So far it's been difficult to find anyone who has it in a dudded form.

 

[Hammerhead]

I have also had over laping leaves on some plants. it was never an issue for me. I thought it was from over feeding (toxic levels of NPK) I backed off on the nutrients. It always grew out of the condition.

 

[Greyskull]

I do not see it.
I have varieties that have overlapping blades, they do not have BM. I know Cannabis pests better then anyone I have ever met, I fought them for decades using IPM, and am very sucessful. I did write a book about Cannabis and pests.
If this plant has a virus or other pathogen spread by broad mites, I don't see it. I do not see any BM damage, but I would need to use a scope and check out the leaves undersides. Yes, viruses and other pathogens can be spread by seed, but remember many Cannabis viruses are symtom free in Cannabis. If it is a disease then maybe farmers in Colorado can go to the Colorado State Department of Agriculture Biochemistry Laboratory and ask for help, they can ID BM and/or maybe find if the plant has a virus, from here I am just guessing.
Maybe in Calif you can use state Agri labs like the State Plant Health & Pest Prevention Service that will help with Cannabis grown by legal medical users? I do not know, but it can't be hard to check, give them a call.
I use the state agri labs here in the Netherlands, they have helped quite a bit in the past. I also worked closely with Kopert here, they tested several new controls with Cannabis in my greenhouse before introducing the controls to everyone.
Good luck, and do not presume you know the problem or the solutions, find the problem then find solutions, if there are any.
-SamS

thanks for sharing
you've forgotten more about cannabis than i will ever know

back in 2007/early 2008, before I started having problems with the Sour Dubble, it fan leaf blades would be very wide spread without overlapping. Once i noticed the infection, I began to notice the overlapping leaf thing. My theory was the tightening of the blades' throw was due to the infection... I guess I can let go of that one hahaha

bbing - thats what it was doing. i know you said you put the one you got into miracle grow and it started to "come out of it"... did it ever have problems on you after that? Hope all is well

I'm curious to xxxstr8edgexxx's theory & application... someone send this man a dudd hahaha

 

[Bill Bellamy]

The plant on the top of this thread is not a DUD, overlapping leaves has nothing to do with DUDs..

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

I may be the only person in the entire world crossing my fingers hoping for a dud. Haha.

 

[Coconutz]

Is it possible that its just an infection from LST or moisture related rot?
You gotta trim those plants either way

 

[scuba80]

It did not start as either a phenotypic or genotypic expression.
It might have been started from broad mites... maybe root aphids... maybe something else - spores? I don't know... but it started as a transmittable issue, much like a virus. It seems that thru breeding (selfing) its reportedly carrying over thru to progeny as well.

so does the mean that a infected mum that has been seeded will carry the duding virus ??

 

[high life 45]

I do not see it.
I have varieties that have overlapping blades, they do not have BM. I know Cannabis pests better then anyone I have ever met, I fought them for decades using IPM, and am very sucessful. I did write a book about Cannabis and pests.
If this plant has a virus or other pathogen spread by broad mites, I don't see it. I do not see any BM damage, but I would need to use a scope and check out the leaves undersides. Yes, viruses and other pathogens can be spread by seed, but remember many Cannabis viruses are symtom free in Cannabis. If it is a disease then maybe farmers in Colorado can go to the Colorado State Department of Agriculture Biochemistry Laboratory and ask for help, they can ID BM and/or maybe find if the plant has a virus, from here I am just guessing.
Maybe in Calif you can use state Agri labs like the State Plant Health & Pest Prevention Service that will help with Cannabis grown by legal medical users? I do not know, but it can't be hard to check, give them a call.
I use the state agri labs here in the Netherlands, they have helped quite a bit in the past. I also worked closely with Kopert here, they tested several new controls with Cannabis in my greenhouse before introducing the controls to everyone.
Good luck, and do not presume you know the problem or the solutions, find the problem then find solutions, if there are any.
-SamS

I would hope that perhaps someone at University Washington might have access to test equipment that could help distinguish whats going on. I dont know if the toxin(s) in bms have been identified, does you have any idea Sam. Perhaps you could give Koppert a Jingle?

Thats awesome that you have worked with Koppert. I am using swirskii mites as part of my IPM. BMs are getting more an more prevalent in my area, and I want to prevent a reinfection at all costs. I figure if I have a healthy population of predators, it will be much more of a challenge for the bms to establish themselves. I have been researching plants that they (bms) can live on. The castor oil plant provides enough pollen for them to breed and survive. So I might be planting a bunch of those outside.

 

[high life 45]

Ya Gotta address the Scourge of Broad Mites. Assume Ya got 'em, in fact. Act preventatively. Watch out for Grow shops, they have 'em many times. People are unaware, and think it is deficiencies, Tobacco Mosaic Virus, or some other disease.. It's BM's, Dudes.

Denial means a failed crop, and maybe best to start in a new space. It's THAT bad, get educated on them, before it's too late. I barely got through them. There are still vestiges of their passing, and I assume I will always have 'em. Even with the clone-dunks in FORBID, sprays of AVID in veg only, and occasional heat treatments, etc. Been infested 2x in my career. Both within the last 3 years, watch out.

Makes Spideys look like a walk in the park.

well said stasis, heat treatment and predator mites are now part of my regimen.

 

[high life 45]

The plant on the top of this thread is not a DUD, overlapping leaves has nothing to do with DUDs..

Bill would you say this fits the description of a dud?

Im trying to get some pics of identified duds here.
If anyone has any please POST THEM UP. Save people and the planet a bunch of wasted energy.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

The microtip method works because the newly emerged cells exist for a short time as they emerge without the virus and become infected like the rest of the plant in short time. The process is how strawberry clones are offered guaranteed free of pathogens virus's etc. it's pretty cool science. There are folks I'm in touch with who have dedicated their entire careers to this field.

 

[Gram Paw smurf]

I'm interested in knowing how wide spread this problem is.
I've asked around a bit n not heard of it being in the UK, Europe, or up here in Canada yet.
How wide spread are the bm's themselves for that matter?
Dunno myself but the more info ppl can get together the more a chance of an answer to be right there staring ppl in the face n just unknown until all the variables of the issue have been found and accounted for.

Good thread n something ppl everywhere should be on the look out for n aware of until there's more answers than questions.
Thnks for the thread post HL45.

cheers all,.........................................................gps

 

[RetroGrow]

yo retro!

what do you think the pics I posted, is that dud'n?

Yes, its best to identify in the first place.

I have a scope in my car most of the time, but not with me at the cup. I flew there.

Your pictures do show what COULD be BM damage. Only the scope knows for sure. What I can tell you about "dudding" from my experience:
For two years, I had cyclamen mites (basically the same as BMs) without knowing it. My seedlings would begin to wilt and show spots @ the two week mark every time. Thought it was a virus. At my girlfriend's suggestion, I tried using aspirin on the plants. Did a little "Googling", and found out that aspirin is an old "folk" remedy for plants. I put one tablet of aspirin in a gallon of water, and drenched the plants. I couldn't believe how quickly the seedlings recovered. Within 12 hours, they were praying, not wilting. Previous batches of seedlings had died without the treatment. I kept giving them aspirin throughout the grow, with every watering. The plants, although infested with cyclamen mites, turned out fine. Not duds!
I never grow without aspirin now. It's always in my rez. It has numerous beneficial effects, including boosting the plants natural immune system, stimulating growth, and stimulating the SAR response. Plants put out signals to nearby plants that danger is near, and they need to boost their immune response. If I am experiencing "dudding" of unknown origin, I am going to use aspirin, as it will mitigate any attack on the plant.
Here is a brief summary of what aspirin does:
"Salicylic acid (SA) is a phenolic phytohormone and is found in plants with roles in plant growth and development, photosynthesis, transpiration, ion uptake and transport. SA also induces specific changes in leaf anatomy and chloroplast structure. SA is involved in endogenous signaling, mediating in plant defense against pathogens. It plays a role in the resistance to pathogens by inducing the production of pathogenesis-related proteins. It is involved in the systemic acquired resistance (SAR) in which a pathogenic attack on one part of the plant induces resistance in other parts. The signal can also move to nearby plants by salicylic acid being converted to the volatile ester, methyl salicylate."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salicylic_acid

 

[RetroGrow]

I'm interested in knowing how wide spread this problem is.
I've asked around a bit n not heard of it being in the UK, Europe, or up here in Canada yet.
How wide spread are the bm's themselves for that matter?
Dunno myself but the more info ppl can get together the more a chance of an answer to be right there staring ppl in the face n just unknown until all the variables of the issue have been found and accounted for.


Good thread n something ppl everywhere should be on the look out for n aware of until there's more answers than questions.
Thnks for the thread post HL45.

cheers all,.........................................................gps

BMs & Cyclamen mites are found all over the world, however their favorite food is fruit trees, especially tropical fruits, so any tropical area with lots of citrus or mangoes or papayas will have high populations of BMs.
They have been spread all over California and Colorado through infected cuts, and they are all over Europe too.
Can only be seen with a microscope, so people pass them around without knowing, and dispensaries have been very careless in controlling this problem.

 

[stasis]

Sam, with all due respect.. Viruses are very rare. Broad Mites are not. Especially with the proliferation of clones across this country, and thus all countries that desire cuttings from the USA.

I work in a Grow Shop, and the Denial is almost pathological.. One of our more obtuse Clients, claims that a bottle of GRAVITY killed his whole crop. A Bloom booster. That was His theory. I saw his pics, it was BM;s. Just an illustration of unproductive, prideful behavior getting in the way of success. His cuts were shipped from CA, originally bought from Harborside.. Umm, Duh.....

We all need to get to know these pests intimately, or else find a new pursuit.

I hoist a very rare shot of Jager to all of You and against this scourge. Worst ever. I had never been thwarted so.

As George W. Bush so eloquently said, "Fool Me Once, shame on You, fool me twice, not gonna happen again."

 

[mojave green]

we could discontinue passing around cuts...