Does a Male or Female Pass On More genetics to Their Offspring?

[Kankakee]

herm's are a stress event. let a plant go past harvest without being pollinated it will go hermaphrodite....

cut the root zone, stress event, plant goes herm....

stress = herm. now everyone doing the S1 / fem game can carry on and will but introducing stress into the genetics is laughable regarding quality. and everyone can go on and on about selection regarding fem's and S1's but the very fact these genetics produce more herm's i don't care who disputes this. the deleted threads from herm breeders speak volumes across many forums when the villagers come home to roost in parent threads seeking answers after well spent money wasted as rooms destroyed from this cascading stress thats now built into the genetic code of those seeds until corrected from proper selection in further generations....

and these indoor breeding experiments are a speck in time up against centuries of natural selection and growth outdoors.

but once removing a plant from its native ecosystem and introducing it into different humidity levels, latitudes, day light times are also a stress event that the plant will adapt to over many generations. but taking a sativa from near equator thats triggered not by night time length but by length of vegetative state is laughable if someone's expecting anything but stress or substandard results.

look at charas hashish plants once taken from india or other plants near equator that have massive performance cascading downwards and effects are dramatically different.

 

[Kankakee]

once someone reads the 12 or so books from luther burbank one of the greatest breeders / testers they will understand many more things than they assume about current breeding regarding plants. he ran circles around most regarding testing and results ....

but, in some cases mass selection is needed for advancement before making assumptions. hundreds of thousands of plants must be grown. is this happening in this industry ? no .... and if it is being done its done by corporations or universities that will spend 20-30 years working towards one goal. like a super male. and believe you me they are using a zero point every step of the way because results are void without it.

 

[Mustafunk]

and how come if these haze seeds are pure you or anybody today can't produce results of nevil's F1 lines..... as i stated before n.l. 5 / haze F1 the greatest single cross of all time regarding results.

Maybe because most people aren't breeding at the scale he did at his castle or are too stuck with commecial genetics to explore brand new lines? Who's popping a thousand F1s in order to find a keeper like the A5 or C5? Nevil's F1s were nice but I've grown loads of Haze hybrids from many friends that are as good if not better and more original than the old NL/Hazes. Its the way he mixed a Haze with a nice selected hasplant clone what produced a unique vigorous offspring with loads of potential.

Great and commercial haze hybrids suitable for indoors for sure, that's how Nev changed the scene... but the rest is just a matter of personal preferences. Anyone breeding at the scale Nevil did could obtain similar results by combining either Hazes or any other NLD/BLD combination. Is just a matter of popping enough seeds to find the outstanding traits, make the most of the F1 hybrid vigour and have a good and experienced eye for top plants.

 

[Kankakee]

You do understand how many new seed lines sprouted from NL5 / Haze ? elite lines no ? not including the guys who never admitted so like dunn's sage, or herer, or the chem lines.....

And it was not dumb luck that the guy selling it in illinois from 1990-1995 was getting $500 per oz at the time ... from nevil's original F1's. A doctor and wife tandem in barrington had a mansion filled with just n.l.5 / haze before getting busted. I personally watched two different people puke from bong hits at a party ( young bucks but still ) and after smoking up michigan wrestling team after national 4 people could not even leave room after blunt and once outside people feel on ground from laughing and tapped out before hitting bars that night. So maybe, you never had the original.

And my original point was this. If anyone still had the pure haze today, they could create the original effects from the original release. ( in a new hybrid combo like n.l.5 / haze ) And ace's offering is clearly not doing this and neither is anybody else. Ive smoked all the chem lines over last few years, the high does not even last an hour..... before you want another hit or you wanna hit the couch with a good bed-time read...

 

[Dropped Cat]

Nevil's F1s were nice but I've grown loads of Haze hybrids from many friends that are as good if not better and more original than the old NL/Hazes. Its the way he mixed a Haze with a nice selected hasplant clone what produced a unique vigorous offspring with loads of potential.

Is just a matter of popping enough seeds to find the outstanding traits, make the most of the F1 hybrid vigour and have a good and experienced eye for top plants.

Recently started a cross program with Sam's thunk x Ed Borg's
nycd x sensi star.

Have a lime pheno and a root beer pheno, so far.
Both great smoke that finishes less than 100 days.

Should have started this cross years ago.

Very good plants, have many F1 seeds to go through,
I maintain both P1's in veg.

The thunk is the female..

 

[led05]

I have had the same 1 acre greenhouse for some 30 years, and I plant in the ground for flowering, and for clone maintenance, as well as maintenance in 10 liter pots, and back ups that are invitro and/or in 1 liter pots in cold storage at 4-5C under lights.
I have been working at Cannabis a very long time concentrating on R&D.

-SamS

Sam - appreciate all you've added on this site, your knowledge has undoubtedly helped nearly every single person in one way or another on this site, whether direct or as a derivative, thanks for all you've shared.

One thing that amazes me...?

Where does one have the right to grow in Greenhouse(s) on an entire acre for 30 straight years? I can see this today, but back in the 80's / 90's / 2000's straight through, same place?

Where did this Utopia exist without getting thrown in the clink?

Thanks!

 

[oldbootz]

people take risks for the things they love

 

[Montuno]

In humans at least, the only genetic code that is reproduced with complete accuracy in offspring, is the in the male which is why you can blood test living males and connect them to ancient ancestors with certainty. Researchers found Mongolians who carry the exact code of Genghis Khan. No females alive today have the exact genetic code of any ancestors - very, very similar but not identical as in the male genetic code. Its because of the Y chromosome - thats our memory stick apparently.

The fact that Neville/Sams/Haze bros Haze A and C were males, says a lot

Not. Youre completly wrong. In fact is the mitocondrial ADN (an heritage of our mothers) the used to seek the origins of Homo Sapiens.

 

[Montuno]

You can blood test females just as easy and confirm parents, or offspring as well as sisters or brothers it is done daily. Also females have mitochondria which can also be used.

https://www.rootsforreal.com/dna_en.php

Shortly after the process of fertilization, the sperms' mitochondria die away, and the embryo is only left with maternal mitochondria. As such, we share the same mtDNA as our brothers and sisters, but not our fathers.

MtDNA is also passed down nearly unchanged from generation to generation. So we share the same mtDNA-type as our mother, our maternal grandmother, our maternal great-grandmother and so on. In fact the exact same mtDNA code will track our direct genetic line back until the point at which a natural mutation in the mtDNA code occurred - on average about every 20,000 years.


-SamS

Right.

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

Oof, what a read. First, I'm sure Verdant Green and the other OG's on ICMag would agree we all owe a big THANK YOU to Sam Skunkman for all your contributions to cannabis genetics and culture over the decades.

On the issue of what and how much is passed on by each side. I think most breeders have noticed that individual variations are greater than any 'sex linked' traits, under most conditions. I think we agree that the individual plant, either staminate or pistilate, plays a heavier role than what sex it is. That said, it seems like backcrossing often results in plants that start to diverge into two types with the males looking one way and the females another.

I've also noticed that a male flower from a female plant seems to influence somewhat differently (when used in a cross), than her seeds. By that, I mean a male of my 'strain X' crossed into select clone will give different results than taking pollin from select clone and going into a female of my 'strain X'. And, it seems like the difference is greater than one would expect from differences between the male and female of my 'strain X'.

 

[mack 10]

You do understand how many new seed lines sprouted from NL5 / Haze ? elite lines no ? not including the guys who never admitted so like dunn's sage, or herer, or the chem lines.....

And it was not dumb luck that the guy selling it in illinois from 1990-1995 was getting $500 per oz at the time ... from nevil's original F1's. A doctor and wife tandem in barrington had a mansion filled with just n.l.5 / haze before getting busted. I personally watched two different people puke from bong hits at a party ( young bucks but still ) and after smoking up michigan wrestling team after national 4 people could not even leave room after blunt and once outside people feel on ground from laughing and tapped out before hitting bars that night. So maybe, you never had the original.

And my original point was this. If anyone still had the pure haze today, they could create the original effects from the original release. ( in a new hybrid combo like n.l.5 / haze ) And ace's offering is clearly not doing this and neither is anybody else. Ive smoked all the chem lines over last few years, the high does not even last an hour..... before you want another hit or you wanna hit the couch with a good bed-time read...

It has been said only top 5% of Original Haze is worthwhile.
Plus anything over 16 weeks is not going to happen.

I love the Chems.

 

[therevverend]

stresses are stored in the seeds

I'm assuming here that by 'stress' they mean environment. It's a much better term then stress. But isn't what he's saying Lamarckian? Environment doesn't effect the offspring.

The classic example is of a giraffe evolving because it was stretching it's neck for higher leaves. It doesn't work like that. A population of giraffes are all competing for food. The ones with longer necks get more leaves and have more offspring.

A group of plants aren't going to become hermaphrodites because they were subjected to a stressful environment and produced male flowers. They were hermaphrodites to begin with. The seeds produced from them will be male, female or hermaphrodite according to their genetics not whether or not they were subjected to environmental stresses that caused them to reverse sex.

An example. I grew a seed a breeder friend gave me. He assured me they were from male on female sex. The plant did great outdoors, healthy plant, not a male flower anywhere.

When the plant was vegetating outdoors I took cuttings. Brought them inside and grew them into a crop indoors. They reversed sex in a horrible way 4 weeks into flowering and had to be culled.

Normally I would take seeds from the female and use her for breeding. Now I know better but it's a mistake many of us make. Unless you subject your females to stressful environments you can't say for certain they aren't hermaphrodites.

And it wouldn't have made a difference if I had made seeds from the outdoor mother or the clones indoors. The chances of passing on the hermaphrodite gene would be the same. I believe hermaphrodites are more common then people think. Just not subjected to the right pressures to express.

 

[Azaghal]

Hi Burro Johnson and everybody else,

found this info in a book called "Enzyklopädie der Cannabiszucht" by Mike/MoD, breeder of Alpine Seeds where on page 278 , chapter 8.

There it says that Male cannabis plants do have a Genome size in the diploid state (2n) of 1683 Mbp
whereas female plants in diploid state (2n) only have a
genome size of 1636 Mbp.

That is a difference of 47 Mbp for only the size of the male Y- Chromosome in Cannabis !
( Mb =Mbp= mega base pairs = 1,000,000 bp )

For reference , the size of the Arabidopsis thaliana genome, a model organism, is ~ 135 Mbp large.

Source:https://www.arabidopsis.org/portals/genAnnotation/gene_structural_annotation/agicomplete.jsp

Tried to translate the original text by Mike/Mod, sticking close to the original:

" With humans and different animal species, the X- Chromosome is larger than the male Y-Chromosome. With Hemp and different species of Cloves it is exactly the opposite. In this case, the male heterosome is distinctly larger than the female one, even larger than all the other existing autosomes. This also explains the difference in genome-size of both genders. Male plants have, in the diploid state, a size of 1683 mega base pairs, whereas female Hemp plants only have genome of 1636 mega base pairs . This size difference can also be observed on the male pollen. The Cellcore of a Y-pollengrain is a little bit larger than that of a
X-pollen. "
Imho that is quite interesting

These two dissertations, altough in german, might be linked to this:

https://sundoc.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/diss-online/03/03H174/prom.pdf

https://sundoc.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/diss-online/05/06H036/prom.pdf

On the other hand and, as many users previously have already said, in general, the femal passes her cell organelles ( chloroplasts and Mitochondria ) down to the next generation.
But there are also exceptions, and both of these organelles do contain their own, altough limited, amount of DNA.

https://www.nature.com/articles/hdy199419
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4305268/
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4020-3166-3_4

Cheers

 

[Burro Johnson]

that is beautiful information azaghal

do you know if using pollen from a reversed female carries the same genome size as a traditional male?

because if that were true then the difference between a female used for seed production
in contrast to a female used for pollen production would be different

leading me to question what do the traits that make the difference control?

giving us the answer as to what traits are male related and which ones are female related

 

[Emperortaima]

that is beautiful information azaghal

do you know if using pollen from a reversed female carries the same genome size as a traditional male?

because if that were true then the difference between a female used for seed production
in contrast to a female used for pollen production would be different

leading me to question what do the traits that make the difference control?

giving us the answer as to what traits are male related and which ones are female related

^^ that's a question I'm interested in knowing, hopefully someone with experience can come chime in some knowledge, was planning to do a s-1 outcross when I reverse a blue Cookieberry Crunch

 

[Burro Johnson]

it would also be interesting to see the interrelationships of genetics when using female pollen vs traditional male pollen.

i hypothesize that the same number of genetics are passed on when using femenized pollen as male pollen.

 

[Elmer Bud]

I can’t remember who made the comment, maybe Nevil or Sam, but it was said that so far (or as far as they know at this point) they believe there are no sex linked traits in cannabis.

G `day BH

I can tell you it was not Nevil .
He thinks just the opposite . That the Sire of the line is where it all comes from .

Maybe if he had more than 1 Haze female and 2 males he might of gotten a better insight ?

Thanks for sharin

EB .

 

[Elmer Bud]

Ut Oh —- clean up in aisle two stat.....


As the sacred seed catalogue list “ Haze “ as selfed offering. So who am I speaking with again ????

G `day K

You`re quite the inquisitor aren`t you .
Selfed in this case means inbred not femmed .

Thanks for sharin

EB .

 

[led05]

G `day BH

I can tell you it was not Nevil .
He thinks just the opposite . That the Sire of the line is where it all comes from .

Maybe if he had more than 1 Haze female and 2 males he might of gotten a better insight ?

Thanks for sharin

EB .

haha

I wonder too if the desire for the Stud is from his learning from more traditional breeding (I'm sure he read dog and horse breeding books for his koi etc), Sure easier and much more profitable to find a stud male horse and truck him along to plenty of ladies than having a preggers female and caring for her, or 100's of them....

with that said, I think stud Haze males are.... well, studly

 

[Raho]

Not quite true, you can cross two female or cross two males by transforming one to the opposite sex, a transformed female clone to male will express pollen but it is still genetically a female, the same with males they can be transformed to female to make seeds.

Transforming males to a female will also allowing smoking of the male transformed to female expression or lab testing of the cannabinoids and terpenes they can contribute to progeny.

Regardless if the female is Haze or Skunk the f1 hybrids express the same general terpene and Cannabinoids, I have made hundreds and tested them.

There may be sex linked traits but this has not been proven in Cannabis.

Intersexed plants can be male or female. Males that are intersex can make seeds on themselves or on nearby plants.

One last point is plants do not just turn intersex because they have not been pollinated, they are born with the intersex traits, be they XY intersex or intersex traits that require stress of some sort to express the intersex. Both are inherited from intersex parents.

People confuse dominate and recessive genes with what a plant recieves from the parents, but do a prunett square with two palnts that have dominate and recessive genes for the same gene and you will see progeny have a crap shoot on what they receive. Depending on what the parents have Ww X Rr for example in the case of White and Red.

Plant genetics like Cannabis can be confusing as Cannabis is a dioecious obligate outcrosser and is a bit special. (90% of all flowering plants on earth have both sex, the remaining 10 percent have unisexual male and female flowers on the same plant (monoecious species) or male and female flowers on separate plants (dioecious species) they are the minority. Cannabis is one of the minority it is dioecious.
-SamS

Hi Sam,
How/why did you edit this post created by another user?
Do you have mod privileges in this forum ?

Thanks