Does a Male or Female Pass On More genetics to Their Offspring?

[frostqueen]

So ,Dubi has posted this :
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=6190548&postcount=26

"The Zamal x Hashplant (reversed) F1 produced a very uniform and early flowering (9 weeks) population, high resin production, compact structure very suitable for indoors, nice solid flowers of medium size with a skunk hashy afghani aroma.

The Hashplant x Zamal (reversed) F1 produced a not so much uniform population with longer flowering time (10-11 weeks), but the vigour, yield, quality of the aromas, potency and complexity are much better in the second case.

Zamal x Hashplant is more like a generic skunky sativa/indica type, still very interesting and enjoyable, more predictable and early flowering, but the fire was in the other one.

Hashplant x Zamal was finally better yielding, with huge voluminous sativa type flowers but hard like an indica. And what is more important, the quality of the flowers is superior: the high is outstanding powerful and complex, far to be generic, with a complex african floral bouquet mixed with the a very refined deep musky afghani aroma that reminds me the best black dominas. "

Pretty sure he's talking about the two same clones reversed.

Great info! Thanks for posting this. I can't wait to see what differences I see with my project.

 

[frostqueen]

and questioning fact fem or S1 lines lines produce more hermaphroditism no matter amount of deleted threads ..... look at franchise genetics total disaster

This is utter nonsense. You have unfortunately revealed yourself as having zero idea wtf you are talking about by jumping to a conclusion like this, friend.

People being lazy and taking shortcuts in the breeding process ≠ STS causing hermaphroditism. Hermaphroditism has nothing whatsoever to do with the reversal process. You would know this if you had any direct experience.

Seeing hermaphroditic tendencies in offspring of reversals just means that some people aren't properly screening their parent plants for herm tendencies before flipping them. Just like many still don't screen properly with traditional m/f crosses. You always want to use plants that are very resistant to stress herming for reversals. STS doesn't stress the plant to create staminate development; it just inhibits ethylene for that outcome. Big difference. Plants that won't stress herm will still be responsive to reversals via ethylene inhibition.

Inhibition of ethylene does not affect a plant genetically. Why would it? Only a virus or a mutagen would have that ability. And it certainly doesn't affect how a seedling expresses itself. By what mechanism? Rodelization as a pollination technique for femmed seeds was far more likely to cause it because that relies on stress or late-term male expression, but with STS nobody has to do that technique anymore.

I have done over 50 reversal projects and have seen no higher incidence of hermaphroditism in them. It obviously doesn't make plants immune to herms, because that tendency is deeply embedded and will occur occasionally regardless of method.

I tend to believe and listen to those who have direct experience; YMMV, of course.

As for attacking Sam... dude: seriously? GTFO. You don't even have a place at the table, friend. What have you contributed to the cannabis community again...? Don't attack those who are walking the walk while you just sit and talk. Sam has proven himself repeatedly for YEARS now. He has earned respect with his actions.

 

[brown_thumb]

None of my plants are hermaphrodites but unfortunately, they all turned gay. I support their desire to be gay if it makes them happy but... no babies.

 

[bigherb]

I did not seed the 5% Early Girl that were intersexed.

The Acapulco Gold is different then what I used in Skunk #1, these seeds in the Catalog were produced in Mexico and sold by me I did not make them.

Things do not add up if you do not understand the facts, now you do and maybe they add up?

With Cultivators Choice I was selling "Sacred Seeds" true breeding stock, "High Breed" hybrid stock and "Select Seeds" imported stock, the Select Seeds were collected by me from Imported Cannabis grown in other countries. I was trying to offer what I thought people could use.


As for me retiring I am retired now but will do a year or two of breeding work with Original Haze, not to sell the seeds, but to save what I consider the best Cannabis I have grown, I will give the finished work to others to use them commercially. I will maybe grow the clones for my own personal use if I like them as I expect. For me it is not work, it is what I love to do. I will have assistance from RCC I hope, and maybe hire a few University Agriculture Grads, as well as agricultural workers to do much of the work under my direction. I do have the 75,000+ pure Original Haze seeds already.
-SamS

I miss the days when I looked forward to a post or response from you in the heat of Haze convos in our various threads .

I have to say this post is one I’ve long awaited, definitely one of my favorite post from you . It Shows true Love never dies

You mentioned this awhile back like 2 and a half years ago a in-depth post , in regards to OHaze reproduction. I’m extremely happy this will be done . As you have said you may be the only one with pure viable OHaze


I’m curious if you have any experience with Cbg Punto Rojo from Charlie Garcia , I recall you mentioned maybe finding pure old Colombians for a repro , laws have changed and I’m sure gates opened

Much Respect

1luvbigherb

 

[Natural high]

In regards to selfing, it can increase the chance of hermaphroditism in some instances, but it is not caused by the reversal but rather the actual process of inbreeding.[FONT=&quot] This is because[/FONT][FONT=&quot] otherwise hidden (recessive) genes controlling intersex can be paired up (made homozygous) and allowed to express.

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[VerdantGreen]

In regards to selfing, it can increase the chance of hermaphroditism in some instances, but it is not caused by the reversal but rather the actual process of inbreeding.[FONT=&quot] This is because[/FONT][FONT=&quot] otherwise hidden (recessive) genes controlling intersex can be paired up (made homozygous) and allowed to express.

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but only in the same way as making a regular male/female F2 can cause intersex or other undesirable recessive alleles to pair up and express. as always it's down to the proper selection of parent or parents for inbreeding, not the process of reversal and S1'ing in itself.

VG

 

[Natural high]

but only in the same way as making a regular male/female F2 can cause intersex or other undesirable recessive alleles to pair up and express. as always it's down to the proper selection of parent or parents for inbreeding, not the process of reversal and S1'ing in itself.

VG

Yes I agree, but selfing is the most extreme form of inbreeding and carry's the greatest risk of recessive gene expression. F2 is sibling breeding, a much less risky propostition.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

We found that any female clones that can not be stressed to express intersex flowers are unlikely to produce progeny that express intersex flowers. I am not referring to STS as a stress, it alters sex expression temporarily, it does not alter the genes.

We also found that using a Thai female clone that does express intersex flowers even without stress, when we used the pollen from the intersex flowers, they also produced all females and almost all were expressing intersex flowers, not surprising as like begets like.

We also found that a selfed single plant will lose vigor as it is inbred, each generation is worse and by S3 or S4 the plant will have serious problems like being functionally sterile, the pollen does not dehiscence it is just to sticky and while viable it must be collected with a Q-tip or another way to be used for pollination.

You can easily avoid the inbreeding by using two different varieties, one as the transformed pollen source and one the clone to be pollinated.
-SamS

 

[Natural high]

We found that any female clones that can not be stressed to express intersex flowers are unlikely to produce progeny that express intersex flowers.

Hi Sam. Are you talking about regular/feminised breeding here or selfing? Selfing can expose recessive genes which would otherwise stay hidden even under stress..

 

[VerdantGreen]

Yes I agree, but selfing is the most extreme form of inbreeding and carry's the greatest risk of recessive gene expression. F2 is sibling breeding, a much less risky propostition.

but by the same token, selfing is more likely to carry the desirable traits you are trying to fix into the progeny. In addition to that, the desirable traits that you are hoping to fix are not usually observable in a male plant, and in many cases a male plant may not even exist if the subject is an 'elite' clone.

VG

 

[Natural high]

but by the same token, selfing is more likely to carry the desirable traits you are trying to fix into the progeny. In addition to that, the desirable traits that you are hoping to fix are not usually observable in a male plant, and in many cases a male plant may not even exist if the subject is an 'elite' clone.

VG

I don't have a problem with selfing. It is a useful breeding technique for many reasons as you understand. I was just pointing out that it can increase the chance of intersex via recessive gene expression.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Hi Sam. Are you talking about regular/feminised breeding here or selfing? Selfing can expose recessive genes which would otherwise stay hidden even under stress..

I was talking about both, selfing and using transformed females to male for pollen to use on a completely different female variety. I did not see intersex problems with selfing a single plant or making S4 from a single plant line, the S4 were all screwed up from inbreeding and loss of vigor and resistance but we did not see intersex problems. As long as the females used were not found to express intersex if tested with all kinds of stress.
-SamS

 

[WaterFarmFan]

A question that I would love answered is selfing with P stock. Is P1 x P1 (reversed) still P1? Thanks.

 

[VerdantGreen]

P1 x P1(reversed) = S1

if that's what you mean?

 

[WaterFarmFan]

P1 x P1(reversed) = S1

if that's what you mean?

I might not be using the right terms, but I thought P1 meant a true breeding variety for certain trait(s). My question was not really about a S1 with P1 material but more in general, if you reverse a female P1, is the pollen and offspring still P1? Hope that makes sense.

 

[VerdantGreen]

You are right that Mendel defined the P generation as true breeding for the traits he was testing for. he also called both parents 'P' and defined the trait rather than using P1 and P2.
The P will only be the parent generation though, after that it will be S1 or F1, although again an F1, strictly speaking is the progeny of two true breeding parents.

it may be more correct to call the S1 parent stock S0, especially if it is not known that it is true breeding, but i am not certain of that, maybe someone can confirm?

VG

 

[CaptainDankness]

do you have any sources for this?

I see this mentioned again and again on weedforums, but I know no science to support it.

if there's a trait(in this case hermaphroditism), there must be one or multiple genes behind it. genes don't appear out of nowhere, they must be inherited.
making fem seeds is just playing with hormones. the only thing it does is change a mother into a father. it doesn't do anything to the genes.
so a plant that contains no genes supporting hermaphoroditism, should not be able to become hermi simply trough feminised seeds.
the only mechanism I can think of how such a thing could occur, is if hermaphroditism in cannabis is/can be a result of inbreeding depression(in which case I would think it's something like multiple recessive genes that decrease ethylene production, or decrease sensitivity to ethylene of the receptor, but that's just speculating), but in that case it would only show in selfed fems, not fem seeds made from 2 unrelated mothers(assuming both mothers are not known for hermaphroditism).


@spaventa: there's also the mitochondrial dna, which inherits in the female line, and in plants chloroplasts too.
the y-chromosome does not really have the function of a 'memory stick'(well, sort of it has, but just like all other genes are), it's just an effect of how chromosomes pair together. usually you get crossing over, but since the x and y chromosome are so different from eachother, they don't crossover when paired together, and a male always has just one of both.

A little hard to prove selfing can cause more hermaphrodites when majority of breeders make money selfing.

I don't know for sure but I'm happy with regular seeds and using males and females to breed.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

A little hard to prove selfing can cause more hermaphrodites when majority of breeders make money selfing.

I don't know for sure but I'm happy with regular seeds and using males and females to breed.

How do you think the intersex can be "caused" are the genes in a plant altered in some way?
I thought it was inherited either an intersex X/Y gene or variation.
Or a gene or genes that require stress of one sort or another to force the plant to express intersex flowers.

The way you suggest it implies STS is altering the genes and changing the sex for good? While STS and the like only alter a female clone sex expression not the genome, the transformation is temporary, not permanent, the transformed female to male plant if put under 24 hours of light can easily return to a veg female. Or most do.
-SamS

 

[CaptainDankness]

How do you think the intersex can be "caused" are the genes in a plant altered in some way?
I thought it was inherited either an intersex X/Y gene or variation.
Or a gene or genes that require stress of one sort or another to force the plant to express intersex flowers.

The way you suggest it implies STS is altering the genes and changing the sex for good? While STS and the like only alter a female clone sex expression not the genome, the transformation is temporary, not permanent, the transformed female to male plant if put under 24 hours of light can easily return to a veg female. Or most do.
-SamS

I already said I don't know for sure. Do you have a link to scientific research to prove what breeders claim? I just have seen none and I like males anyways.

 

[ahortator]

Hi. Perhaps this is not the correct place. But about intersexed females. I spent several years growing an Indonesian heirloom.

The strain only had intersexed females. I have never seen a male in that line. So I guess if that specific intersex trait is recessive.