Distinguished and Nurtured Kind

[moses wellfleet]

Frank when the cut was getting passed around was it getting selfed at each stop or the same cut was getting different names at each location?

 

[dank.frank]

Same cut. Different names at some locations, seeds found and kept at others. Topanga is from a seed. BTY is a very well kept original clone.

My understanding.



dank.Frank

 

[Ibechillin]

Great info Frank, thanks.

Alien Genetics Fruity Pebbles OG and Bodhi Goji OG are the special OG plants Ive encountered and never forgot, with that distinct warm eyes OG kush high. Alien Genetics did alot of great work with the Tahoe OG, from what I understand the Tahoe OG was used in the Nepali OG that parented Goji OG as well.

 

[heady blunts]

On the subject of diversity of inputs. I have been building up my soil with entomopathogenic fungi to combat root aphids etc. Beauveria bassiana, metarhizium, amongst others. I was advised to add 2ml per liter molasses when I dosed. I enquired with the manufacturer if I could use fish hydrolysate to do the same job? They said no because b. Bassiana is saprophytic, it lives off dead and decaying plant matter.

So my point is if you rely on blood meal and seabird guano for your nitrogen input and overlook alfalfa meal you may be missing out on some of the hidden benefits of the alfalfa meal beyond the nitrogen it provides. So they told me that the fresher alfalfa is an excellent addition for the saprophytic fungi, as compost is already well into the process of decay. Good to provide matter that is full spectrum!

ive been wanting to respond to that convo a few pages back re: diversity of inputs but life has been too hectic to sit down and write a thoughtful response. since moses just provided a perfect segue i’ll toss out a half baked idea:

according to ingham the mineral components of soil (sand/silt/clay not soilless mixes) hold enough nutrition to sustain all life, and the key to healthy ecosystems is a robust and diverse soil microbiome which can access those on demand and barter them for plant exudates.

since hearing her speak on this idea i’ve become increasingly convinced. it reminds me of something jayKUSH used to say, that once your soil is full of life you should be able to sustain it indefinitely by only top dressing leaf mold. it also dovetails in nicely with other regenerative farming practices like biodynamics, compost building, natural farming, etc.

i have been following the mineral balancing/albrect based work too but although i admit its proven success i don’t think it provides a satisfying explanation of the interaction with biology (or maybe i have missed it?). i have a hunch it will end up being proven that adjusting those ratios impacts microbe populations or something similar.

in any case none of this is directly applicable to soilless mediums but i think the point i’m heading towards is that imo the success of using diverse inputs may be that you are providing more readily accessible food sources for immature/underdeveloped/early succession microbial populations as well as medium and long-term ingredients that will persist as the biology develops.

who knows? i’ve been mostly in info mode lately, but i always learn the most with my hands in the dirt. looking forward to testing some of these ideas in the field soon i hope!

 

[genetic freaked]

This thread keeps getting better and better!!

 

[Ibechillin]

Ive been researching into building a living soil with Albrechts ratios and supplementing with inputs (solubles and foliars) that wont harm the bacteria/fungi. From what I understand microbes/fungi break insoluble element matter down and release it as the soluble single element ions immediatley available for uptake by the plant. "Synthetic fertilizers/salts" are pairs of single element ions that when added to water separate back into the soluble single element ions immediatley available for uptake by the plant (no microbe/fungi processing needed).

Ammonia seems to be the main input that kills both the microbe and fungi life in the rootzone and should be avoided, bacteria/fungi like nitrate from what Ive found. High concentrations of readily available phosphorus like from triple super phosphate kills the fungi life also temporarily. It creates an environment the fungi cant inhabit, but they return as available P is used up/flushed from medium. Rock Phosphate seems to be the best source of P for maintaining fungi life in the rootzone, even boosting the formation of mycorrhizal fungi (more so than bonemeal according to linked study below).

Ive been learning from Slownickel and jidoka to reduce input of magnesium as much as possible to prevent calcium uptake from being hindered. Slownickel recommends applying magnesium only by foliar on a routine or when deficiency showing, epsom salt is damaging to bacteria and fungi also. Slownickel has also mentioned phosphoric acid is the only foliar application of phosphorus hes seen a positive result from, I made a mental note of it because I want to minimize rootzone phosphorus other than the rock phosphate.

Even with plenty calcium available its mostly immobile to the plant, with balanced nutrition regular routine (weekly) foliar application of an amino chelated calcium (Glycine amino added makes highly plant available form) and ammonium nitrogen should be used to keep up with rapid above ground growth.

Here is a good explanation on nitrogen by Harley Smith and Slownickel afterward:

Nitrate-N is a “luxury” element. In other words, if you give your plants extra nitrate, the plant will take it up, whether the plant needs it or not! Over 30% of the energy of photosynthesis is burned just to take up nitrates. So if you add too much nitrate nitrogen, the plant burns up its energy reserves for more top growth, but root growth is inhibited. The plants may look lush and dark green, but the plant will be weakened. Plants supplied with excess nitrates will produce large cells with thin cell walls, making them more susceptible to stress and disease, and excessive nitrates can delay or even prevent flowering! Stored nitrates in plant tissues can also give rise to off-flavors, and they are generally considered unhealthy. In fact, in Europe if nitrate levels are too high in the plant tissue, the produce will lose its organic certification, even if all-natural fertilizers are used.

A little ammonium-nitrogen is a quick fix. Plants will take up the ammonium ions immediately, without accumulating excess nitrates in the process. Ammonium - nitrogen can also be used as a light foliar feed to quickly green up the plant. Professional growers manipulate the ammonium:nitrate ratios of the nutrient solution to maximize quality and yield. For example, a “hard water” nutrient formula will have a higher ammonium to nitrate ratio to help stabilize pH. The ammonium ion is positively charged. So as the plant takes up ammonium ions, it exchanges positively-charged H+ ions from the roots. This tends to neutralize excess bicarbonate ions in well water and help drive the pH down. On the other hand, the nitrate ion is negatively charged. So as the plant takes up nitrates, it exudes negatively-charged bicarbonate or OH- ions from the roots, tending to drive the pH up. Therefore, increasing the ammonium to nitrate ratio can help stabilize pH problems in well water.

Unlike nitrate nitrogen, ammonium nitrogen is assimilated directly by the roots for immediate use by the plant, without burning up excess carbohydrates in the process. Under high light and CO2 conditions, extra ammonium ions can be very beneficial. If carbon dioxide is supplemented to levels above 750 ppm, plants will preferentially take up carbon molecules over nitrate-N, limiting protein production. If more of the nitrogen is provided in the ammonium form, however, the plant can utilize it directly for increased protein production under high CO2 and light conditions. Just don’t overdo it! Ammonium nitrogen can become toxic to plants at even modest levels, producing soft, “rank” growth, especially in cool, low-light conditions."

Nitrate pushes veg. Why? Because nitrates allow the plant to pick up 4 Ca for ever 2 K. Ammonia or organic nitrogen for that matter, is the signal for the plant to flower, as the plant can only pick up 2 Ca for every 2 K. A definite signal for the plant to "mature" and flower.

Been practicing that concept for years on melons to set two good harvests! Works great!

Info on Phosphorus use in plants and maximizing its benefits by Harley Smith:

Phosphorus is the energy element, essential to the chemistry of life. It is part of a molecule called ATP (adenosine tri-phosphate) that serves as the energy currency of plants. Energy from photosynthesis and respiration is temporarily stored in the high-energy phosphate bonds. When the phosphate bonds are broken, energy is released to activate a series of chemical reactions in plants.

If a plant doesn’t receive adequate phosphorus, its energy needs can’t be fully met. The plant’s new growth will be stunted, both at the roots and at the shoots, and as phosphorus deficiency worsens, the plant will eventually shut down and die. An adequate amount of phosphorus is required throughout the entire life cycle of a plant, and lack of available phosphorus is often the limiting factor for plant growth.

Phosphorus is not very mobile in soil. It is easily adsorbed or locked up with other minerals, making it unavailable to plants. Very little plant-available phosphorus is actually dissolved in the soil solution. In fact, adsorbed phosphates on soil particles are often hundreds to thousands of times greater than phosphates in the soil solution. As a plant takes up the phosphates from the soil solution, the adsorbed phosphates slowly take their place, but they are sometimes not fast enough to meet the energy needs of the plants. Plants must have a steady supply of phosphorus from seed to harvest.

In nature, mycorrhizal fungi help plants take up phosphorus. The fungi penetrate root cells and send out hyphae (thread-like structures), seeking out water and precious phosphorus in the surrounding soil and organic matter. The fungi exude enzymes and organic acids to make the phosphorus soluble, then feed it to the roots of the plant.

In exchange, the plant exudes sugars to feed the mycorrhizal fungal. Usually, it’s a good trade. In fact, if there is a phosphorus deficiency in the soil, plants will exude signal molecules to attract mycorrhizal fungi. On the other hand, if there is plenty of water-soluble phosphorus, plants will exude enzymes to repel mycorrhizal fungi, treating them as a pathogen.

Organic gardeners using relatively insoluble forms of phosphorus such as bone meal and rock phosphate should consider inoculating roots with mycorrhizal fungi. But for even better results, adding phosphorus-solubilizing bacteria along with the mycorrhizae is a powerful combination.

The beneficial bacteria hitch a ride on the fungal strands and swim to places in the soil solution the fungi can’t reach. The bacteria then exude enzymes to release phosphorus from the surrounding soil and organic matter and make it more available to the mycorrhizae. Phosphorus-solubilizing bacteria feed the fungi, and the fungi feed the plants.

One of the benefits of hydroponics is the availability of water-soluble phosphorus. Even so, the phosphates must be kept separate from calcium ions in concentrated form. That’s why hydroponic nutrients often come in two-part and three-part formulas. All of the calcium is in one bottle, and all of the phosphates are in the other bottle.

If the two were combined in concentrated form, the calcium would react with the phosphates to form calcium phosphate, which is 95% insoluble. Both the calcium and the phosphates would lock up, precipitate out of solution and become unavailable to the plants. But once diluted in enough water, the calcium and phosphates remain soluble in solution to be easily absorbed.

Mono-ammonium phosphate (MAP), a highly water-soluble form of phosphorus, is often included in starter fertilizers used by commercial growers. The additional phosphorus energizes the rooting process, and the ammonium is quickly assimilated through the developing roots to produce growth hormones and enzymes.

Adding a little extra phosphorus during the first 2-3 weeks of vegetative growth can have a dramatic effect on root strike and the establishment of plants. Lab tests have shown up to a 20% increase in root mass with nutrient formulas supplemented with a moderate increase of MAP during the early vegetative growth stage.

Another key stage for phosphorus application is during the fruiting and flowering stage. Most hydroponic bloom formulas provide phosphorus in the form of mono-potassium phosphate, providing adequate phosphorus throughout this phase. But sometimes plants need a boost. For example, during the transition from grow to bloom, a great deal of energy is diverted to flower production, and the plant may not be able to keep up with the extra energy demand. A little supplemental phosphorus during the early flowering stage can give a plant the energy boost it needs, promoting earlier flowering and more flowering sites.

During heavy fruit and flower production, plants continue to require higher levels of phosphorus to help provide energy for the developing fruit, but higher levels of potassium are also important for increased carbohydrate metabolism. That’s why there are many P-K boost formulas on the market.

Generally speaking, phosphorus and potassium are both important during the fruiting and flowering stage, but increased phosphorus is particularly beneficial during the early flowering stage, while increased potassium is particularly beneficial during heavy fruiting and flowering. If you want to fine-tune the nutritional needs of your plants, it’s best to spoon-feed phosphorus and potassium separately whenever possible.

Many hydroponic growers use phosphoric acid to lower the pH of their nutrient solution, but since phosphoric acid is actually a phosphorus fertilizer, it can quickly build up to toxic levels if too much is used. Moderation is the key. Phosphorus additives are beneficial when they are used in the correct amounts at the correct times. Learn to spoon-feed your crops to give them exactly what they need when they need it. A little extra phosphorus can energize the rooting process and stimulate the flowering process, but too much at the wrong time can have adverse effects. Manage your phosphorus fertilizers wisely and your plants will reward you with heavy yields of vibrant flowers and tasty fruits.

Info on Potassium use in plants and maximizing its benefits by Harley Smith and Slownickel afterwards:

During heavy fruiting and flowering, plants can deplete the potassium in the root zone very quickly, sometimes in as little as three or four days! Potassium is a catalyst for carbohydrate metabolism. So if your plants don’t get the potassium that they need, sugar production slows down and your plants have a hard time storing up the energy that they need for fruit and flower development. Plant growth stalls, and the quality of fruits and flowers declines. So to keep the quality of your fruits and flowers high, potassium supplements can make a big difference.

Phosphorus is especially beneficial at the beginning of the flowering stage since phosphorus provides energy for earlier flowering and the production of more flowering sites. Potassium, on the other hand, is best during heavy fruiting and flowering. For example, if tomato plants begin to develop a potassium deficiency, the fruit will become watery with low sugar content and poor shelf life. That’s why commercial hydroponic tomato growers often use potassium sulfate as a boost to their nutrient formula during the fruiting and flowering stage. Maintaining high potassium to nitrate ratios promote fruit and flower quality, with higher sugar content, better shelf life and improved flavors.

If you use an organic bloom stimulant, the need for potassium supplements is even more important. In 2007, I had the privilege of visiting a prestigious research greenhouse in Belgium where they were performing scientific trials on organic bloom stimulants. They were growing sweet peppers in the trial, with and without bio-stimulants. Even the control plants were impressive. The untreated sweet pepper plants were 12-feet tall and loaded with peppers! The treated plants in the next row were even more productive. Half way through the trial the plants treated with organic bloom stimulants had already achieved a 10% increase in yield, and the numbers were continuing to rise. Not only were there more fruit and flowers, but the fruit was heavier and more fully developed.

There was a catch, however. As the pepper plants were putting on more weight with fruits and flowers, the potassium was being pulled out of the nutrient solution very quickly. Every week the scientists took a nutrient solution sample for testing and charted the amount of every mineral in the nutrient solution. As production increased, potassium levels decreased, while most of the other minerals remained relatively unchanged. Unfortunately, the scientists weren’t allowed to add extra potassium to the experiment. A controlled experiment can only have one variable. If they had added more potassium to the nutrient solution, it would have been impossible to know for sure if the increased yield was a result of the bio-stimulants or the extra potassium. So to keep the results clear, only the bio-stimulants were added in the experiment, even though potassium was sure to become the limiting factor. A 10% increase in yield is significant, but I’ve often wondered how much more the plants could have produced if the researchers would have been allowed to combine bloom stimulants with just the right amount of supplemental potassium.

Without question, if you want to push your plants to reach their true genetic potential, always add potassium supplements to your feeding schedule during heavy fruiting and flowering. But how do you know which potassium supplements work the best? A targeted potassium supplement may be a better choice to help your plants reach their peak of fruit and flower production. Near the end of flowering, plants don’t need additional nitrogen or phosphorus in the feeding schedule. So instead of continuing to give your plants supplements derived from potassium nitrate or mono-potassium phosphate, try a potassium supplement derived from potassium sulfate, instead. Potassium sulfate provides the potassium boost that plants need, without any additional nitrates or phosphates. The sulfur in potassium sulfate is an added bonus, since sulfur compounds help “turn on” flowering genes in the plant and contributes to flavors and aromas.

In plant nutrition, it’s all about balance. Ideally, we should give the plant only what it needs, when it needs it. If you overdo it and give your plants more potassium than they need, it could cause a deficiency in other nutrients, especially calcium and magnesium. So how do you know how much is too much? Your plants will tell you. For example, potassium toxicity commonly shows up as a magnesium deficiency. Potassium and magnesium ions can compete with one another for uptake by the plant. So if you use too much potassium, magnesium deficiency symptoms may start to appear. Magnesium deficiency shows up in the older growth near the bottom of the plant as interveinal chlorosis. In other words, the veins of the lower leaves stay green, but the tissue between the veins will start to turn yellow. So if you start to see symptoms of magnesium deficiency, back off on your potassium supplements a little. And don’t worry; correcting a magnesium deficiency is easy. Simply add a little cal/mag to your nutrient solution or spray a mild solution of Epsom salts (magnesium sulfate) on the bottom leaves of your plants. The leaves will green up in a matter of days. So don’t be afraid of using a generous dose of potassium supplements during flowering; just use them as directed for best results.

It’s always best to use the purest, most water-soluble forms of potassium you can find. Generally speaking, try to stay away from “agricultural grade” potassium supplements if you can. They often use a chemical extraction process and may have unacceptable levels of impurities. The best natural forms of potassium sulfate supplements are “soluble fines”, and some even qualify for OMRI certification for organic gardening. The bottom line is, “Potassium is the health element”. If you want healthier plants with higher-quality flowers and sweeter fruit, potassium is the key. As the summer progresses and your plants begin to fill in with fruits and flowers, spoon-feeding your garden with potassium supplements will keep your garden growing strong!

If one understands the cycles, pushes the cycles, it is pretty amazing how far we go and still get amazing quality and at the same time increasing yields. Important to have both.

High K at the end of the cycle(s) matures up everything. Which at the end of flower means moving everything up to the flower.

I insist that folks stay a week ahead of what they plan on doing, one week early. So if the program is to mature up and I have enough Ca to cover my bet, I will push 13 gr of K sulfate per gallon on ONE PLANT, one week ahead of time. If I see positive response, the plant has spoken. We're good to go.

This can be confirmed with a refractometer.

This is all about nutrient density. Knowing when to push and knowing when to pull.

Slow...so k2so4 definitely increases terpene levels compared to mkp when used this way, yea?

Most definitely terp increase with the KS.

Most definitely! On lots of crops you can push maturity, but you better have everything right if you push!

Biogenic Silica Info From Harley Smith:
(pretty sure diatomaceous earth is the same thing)

Biogenic silica from volcanic sources does not have sharp edges. In fact, the biogenic silica particles are very smooth and porous, with a fine matrix of tiny holes that can actually filter water as it passes through them. As the water flows through the particles, mineral ions adhere to silica surfaces, allowing them to be released to plant roots on demand. So biogenic silica is not just a great source of plant-available silica, it is a reservoir for other important nutrients, actually making trace elements more available to the plant instead of locking them up!

Since biogenic silica comes from a natural source, it is not 100% water soluble. It is usually provided as a dry powder with the consistency of talcum powder. When added to water, about 25-30% of the silica dissolves into various forms of silicic acid and becomes immediately available to the plant. The rest of the silica is “flowable”, becoming trapped in the root zone to provide a slow-release form of silica and other beneficial minerals. The flowable particles are small enough that they won’t clog emitters, but they must be stirred up to keep them suspended in water. If they are not stirred, some of the fine particles will settle out of solution in a few hours.

Silica is great for plants, but the greatest benefit of biogenic silica is its effect on plant-growth-promoting bacteria in the root zone. Beneficial bacteria thrive at neutral pH, so biogenic silica makes a perfect home for bacteria that colonize the root zone. In fact, biogenic silica is actually one of the best “carriers” for microbial blends used to inoculate plant roots. As the fine particles of silica embed themselves in the root zone, the microbes use the particles as launching stations to the developing roots. In addition, the trace elements that adsorb to the surfaces of the silica particles are readily available to microbes, speeding up their metabolism and providing a biological bridge to the roots. Along with the microbial-enhanced silicon and trace elements, microorganisms provide vitamins, enzymes and growth hormones that stimulate root development and provide a nutritious soup of natural plant protection agents. Therefore, plant-growth-promoting bacteria in the root zone, in conjunction with the biogenic silica, greatly enhance the plant’s natural resistance to stress and disease.

Effect Of Chemical Fertilizers On The Beneficial Soil Microorganisms:

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ashwin_Revanna2/publication/309010603_Effect_of_chemical_fertilizers_on_the_beneficial_soil_microorganisms/links/57fdca1e08ae406ad1f3d814/Effect-of-chemical-fertilizers-on-the-beneficial-soil-microorganisms.pdf?origin=publication_detail

Effects Of Phosphorus On Soil Microorganisms:

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmicb.2017.01266/full

 

[dank.frank]

@Heady - that's what I've been preaching for many years. Precisely that exact thing.

@genetic_freaked - I'm glad you think so. Ill put down some Snow Monkey and some Abusive OG x Digi Bx1 that will get germinated with the first batch of OG seeds.

Pretty sure this next round I'll need 32.

@Ibechillin - Without going down the rabbit hole, I'll just say, if you need to apply anything via foliar, then the soil wasn't right to begin with.



dank.Frank

 

[Ibechillin]

@Ibechillin - Without going down the rabbit hole, I'll just say, if you need to apply anything via foliar, then the soil wasn't right to begin with.



dank.Frank

Rabbit Holes are my hobby Frank!

The idea of a super soil is just that, an idea. I would argue, not a good one.

This crop goes through cycles. The cycle needs to start with high Ca and adequate (not high) K. As you go further in to veg, you raise K to mature the roots and bulk up. Going into flower, Ca needs to be raised quickly again and K at the same time ramping up.

No way to run cycles in a super soil. Every one that I have taken an analysis from had terribly high K and Mg, no where near enough Ca.

Subcool even said his super soil isn't a great idea recently on GrowTube. He is now amending soil based on soil tests.

Folks evolve! Thank God! No substitute for well applied good science. Otherwise it is called GUESSING!

 

[dank.frank]

Not to be pompous, but to quote myself on this topic from years past:

What plants need may differ, but how that is taken from the soil, as long as it is present, is completely controlled by the individual plant.

Roots exudates control the bacteria and in turn control what populations exist and what is being converted from raw form to ionic form. If it is present in the soil, then the plant will be able to sequester what it needs, when it needs it, and in what quantities.

A mix shouldn't have to be different at all for different strains or for that matter different species of plants as long as they prefer the same general pH ranges.



dank.Frank

and

Every soil has living micro-biology in it...even the stuff you go dig out of your front yard. While it may be common practice to supplement these bacteria with specific species for the purpose of taking advantage of scientific data and research, it does not negate or diminish the fact that ALL soils, to some extent, contain living elements.

Cannabis growers are honestly some of the most advanced organic gardeners on the planet. Truly - we are more passionate and extreme in our methodologies than any other type of general agriculture. I think this is a great thing because it is a clear example of how much effort we have exerted in order to learn and produce the best.

I would call any structured soil...one that is custom designed and specifically amended and contains so many various individual components, a bit of an anomaly to what MOST people would consider "organic". Do realize, I'm not talking about the various amendments themselves, but rather the various components that make our basic planting media. It's not the same as "soil" as it is spoken of in the classical sense.

Diversity of amendments is for the purpose of supporting diversity within the bacterial and fungal communities...not necessarily for providing short term/long term N-P-K. It goes back to that old adage of feeding the soil and not the plant.

I like organics because it forces me to remove myself from the equation and to simply allow nature to take over and do what it does.

Just stop and consider how many places do trees or grass or flowers grow that are never specifically "cultivated"...lol...that is the result of a living, self-fluctuating, self-controlled, independent ecosystem.

Never forget to realize that science is merely trying to explain the observations we see within the natural world. There are millions of things we observe that we are trying to still understand and there is much to be learned...or rather, interpreted from observation into a functional, conversational knowledge.

Don't get stuck on branding and fail to realize that simply because you aren't marching to the beat of the same drum, that your soil or "mix" is not living, to some extent or various degree.

BUT - STILL - it does not take multiple mixes to properly grow different cultivars. In hydro, people talk of dialing in the plant. In organic soil, we talk of properly amending the soil so the plant can be in control and dial itself. If the plant isn't performing to expectations, it's because it isn't being pumped full of chemical steroids to make it look or behave a specific way...and when a plant under performs in organic soil, we don't try to find a new magic bottle to fix the problem, we simply cull the garbage and sprout more seed.

dank.Frank

That is in part what this thread is about. To try and find something new. The thrill of the hunt. However, in doing so, I have to get this new room dialed and on point so when I'm looking at the plants, it's the genetics I'm seeing and not some varied response to a condition within the environment, which includes how I'm interacting with the plants as well. Trim too much one day and stunt the plant? Always rubbing against a set of leaves and browning them off due to abrasion...

It's an astute awareness of how the smallest detail impacts the big picture. It takes years to really grasp that to the fullest degree, regardless of how big or small your room is. It's attention to details that results in dank.

Find out what analytical method they are using. Different methods use different chemicals / different strengths of acids to break down the different components of the soil in order get accurate read outs from the lab equipment.

Ask the lab if their saturated media extract method includes readings for CEC and % Humic Mater. Weight/Volume ratio and also exchangeable acidity. You want to know base saturation % as well, because it tells you what percentage of the CEC is actually bound to various cations.

It all depends on the lab and what information they include with the various analytical methods. Some labs include more than others, even for the same process.

Here is something important to KNOW about soil testing though. Cannabis, unlike other agricultural commodities does not have a set nutritional value for the lab to say whether your data is above or below an established threshold. In part, you have to know exactly what is in your base soil, and after a grow cycle, need to have it analyzed again to create a data set for yourself that tells you how much of each element is being removed from the soil in a single crop cycle. With that information, you can begin to establish a set of parameters you feel should be met within your soil.



dank.Frank

That last bit in bold blue, I had to laugh about. As you can tell, I've been researching and working on the conceptual aspect of this thread for years. That post was made in April of 2016. Here we are, 3 years later, making it a reality and giving away all the information and data in the process.

I'm not opposed to a single thing you posted. I spoke with slow on the phone for about 3 hours a few years back and we discussed the nuances of Lazy Lightning and that of the chem line plants in general, and their variegation issue. Tried addressing it from a nutritional issue and we looked over soil tests, etc, etc, etc.

I'm not ignorant to that approach. When the soil test come back, you'll see.



dank.Frank

 

[dank.frank]

@Ibechillin - I guess I should have some fun here. To give you an example of what I mean.

If you go back and you look at my amendment list - you'll see that it says "Rock Phosphate".

The product I use is made by a company called Fertoz. They are fairly new to the market, but their product is awesome compared to say a regular Calcium Phosphate or Tenn Brown Rock Phosphate.

It's 20% total Phosphorus. 7% available. 31% CaO...and wait...here's the real kicker you'll love...26% SiO2.

Want to know something even more interesting? You can take the product, mix it with citric acid and water, which will dissolve it, and then you can use it as a foliar spray.

Folks evolve! Thank God! No substitute for well applied good science. Otherwise it is called GUESSING!

I think when I re-read your post, this is what sticks out to me as an intentional last statement. I'm not sure if you're just sharing what you're currently reading or if that was implied to have an underlying meaning...that being "super soils" as they are called, are a thing of the past and should be.

Suffice to say, I 100% completely disagree with that sentiment. This thread proves exactly why. The terminology is a bit absurd and I've never used it - I've always just said a fully amended organic soil - nothing more to it than that.

If that is how you want to grow, telling the plant each stage of the way what it is supposed to do and be, in a sense micromanaging it's every development, with these phases and triggers, etc. In my humble opinion, that is going backwards and exactly what I wanted to get away from.

That's just not my style or how I choose to approach growing cannabis. Science and knowledge can be applied and implemented in different methodologies with the same end goal in mind.



dank.Frank

 

[White Beard]

I can’t even READ the words “rock phosphate” without hearing the B52s in my head....


From being around the forum, I see SlowNickel is into parts per million, and I get that’s not your way, Frank. Not really my way, although I can see the appeal of the precision, the efficiency, of a by-the-numbers approach. I simply don’t want a meter running on everything; the older I get, the more I value the relationship over the numbers (in all areas)

 

[Ibechillin]

No intention of starting an argument, not a right or wrong way to do things. Were all working towards the same goal from different sides of the question is all the way I see it. Just sharing where Im at currently in my understanding, utilize what you agree with and shitcan what you disagree with lol. I make things really complicated because im trying to hybridize the best parts of every growing method in soil.

@whitebeard Frank does break everything down just in a different way using lb per sq ft derived from acre application, similar end result different path.

 

[White Beard]

No intention of starting an argument, not a right or wrong way to do things. Were all working towards the same goal from different sides of the question is all the way I see it. Just sharing where Im at currently in my understanding, utilize what you agree with and shitcan what you disagree with idgaf lol.

We all go the way we go for reasons, not here to judge a method, I’ve been reading hydro threads because I want to understand them better.

 

[dank.frank]

I'm actually doing the same thing you're talking about - just not the way you're talking about it. (which you seem to understand)

Philosophically, I see our need for interaction / intervention in the plants growing processes, differently than you.

The plant ALREADY does ALL of those things, 100% on it's own, without any interference from us. All the biochemical and hormonal changes it goes through, changes the exudates secreted from the roots, which stimulates a different type of fungi or bacteria and they begin the task of doing what the plant has asked, or rather, chemically commanded.

So, while I'm hands off in that regard, I fully believe, there is a smarter approach to how we feed cannabis, even in organic soil systems. When everyone started crying soil tests, it solved some issues but it created others.

It's EXACTLY what this thread is addressing. It's why we started with a base NPK profile established by Israeli scientists. Compared it, mathematically, to other successful mixes I have made in the past as a control for parameter thresholds. Compiled it using a really diverse range of very specific inputs. This current mix, everything about it, has been put together using scientific formulas and methods.

I have soil I took out of the bed, before I put the very first transplants in it. It's still in the ziplock bag it was supposed to be sent off in. I'll make that a priority, for the purpose of furthering this conversation.

Good vibes.



dank.Frank

 

[dank.frank]

Day 5 of the current flowering cycle. Growing tops are sitting 6-8" above the screen already. I've had to thin the lower growth twice since putting the screen in place 6 days ago. I'm getting 1"+ of growth per day, even before stretch really hits full force, so I know the plants are healthy and loving their environment.

Pics or it didn't happen. I know. I know.

When humidity in the room drops below 30% I know I need to water.



dank.Frank

 

[moses wellfleet]

Shaved legs always makes the garden look so neat and well tended!

 

[dank.frank]

I don't know. It feels a bit odd to me. I've not been a fan of whatever that is called...defoliation...as a practice. I've promoted the opposite for many years - the notion that the plants leaves are the bioreactors for absorbing light and creating energy for the plant to grow. If you remove those, you effectively reduce the plants potential.

Typically, a standard plant under 1k would look like this:

NuggetShiner Golden Cindy - (Hindu Kush x Skunk #1) x C99

MeltingPot ECSD x Bubba

So this, heavily stripped down thing - is only something I'm doing because of the limitations of the light. To say that sounds like a discredit, but if the light isn't effectively getting to the growth and it's starting to yellow off anyway due to not getting any light, or if the branch is weak and spindly struggling to make it through the upper fan leaves blocking the light...you might as well go ahead and only allow growth within the sweet spot.

I'll still not be "defoliating" the growth that will remain the full length of flower. I still think that in concept is a bit unnecessary. That's not to say I don't pull a few fan leaves where they are over lapping and creating condensation build up or something along those lines, but otherwise.

All that aside, yeah, the mushroom canopy bit does look pretty cool to look under. It's like there should be smurfs running around on the "forest floor" or something.

I really do think we are pushing close to 90% or better of a completely filled screen. That means...90 out of 100 holes have at least a single vertical growth stem coming upwards with the potential to form a decent sized bud. Can't wait for this to fill in.


dank.Frank

 

[nickman]

Wow, screens looking “FULL” ...!!!...

There’s gonna be so many nice buds so all the same size... I bet there’s no bud-rot this time around.




Also, great talk with ibchillen ... I always learn so much when I come to this thread. Probably why it’s one of my favorites...!!!...

 

[dank.frank]

I'm hoping, spreading out the energy among more flower set and the increase in air flower paired with the reduction in temperatures, will indeed, mean no bud rot this time.

Thanks for the positive energy and good vibes!

I'm slacking on getting the soil test - and the thc/cbd test, actually. Once I get those things done, I can talk a bit more about CBD and then I can carry the conversation forward with Ibechillin.

The only way to make my point to him is to show him some data and some numbers. Which needs to happen for the progression of this thread anyway. I said that a few dozen pages back I'm sure. Probably more than once.

I had to go to his wall and make sure he knew it wasn't hostile territory here. I don't have to agree with everything about the way someone does something to be able to step back and say they do a great job and grow some great flowers. There are limitations to that of course, which is why most of us grow our own, I'm sure.

I've met quite a few people in the CBD hemp industry who are full of it up to their eye balls but at some point along the way they started to truly believe their own lies. Now, they produce trash and you couldn't tell them it wasn't gold. I think there are some THC growers that way too. Pride is a mutha f'er.

I sincerely try not to be "that guy", especially since I tend to be opinionated as it is.



dank.Frank

 

[chuckyoufarley]

looking awesome DF very healthy looking .its def a full net.digging the watering hole lol