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Dennis Peron Arraigned For Child Porn & Drugs
- Thread starter vta
- Start date
It used to be ILLEGAL in Texas and else where for consenting adults to commit sodomy (fun anal and oral sex type of stuff).
In Lawrence v. Texas the US Supreme Court struck down Texas's criminal sodomy laws (effecting other states as well).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas
Since these NOW NULLIFIED UNCONSTITUTIONAL LAWS were struck down TX and other states had NO legal right to retain prisoners for these offenses.
If the states didn't free these UNCONSTITUTIONALLY incarcerated individuals (but I bet they did) then it is time to end this version of the experiment in government.
You act act as though you are shooting down every point I make with your high school brain buster comment at the end, yet your responses show otherwise.
I know your frustrated that 19 didn't pass, and clearly your frustration of its failure combined with your inability to see anyone else's view point on the subject make this whole dialogue pointless so I'll end it after a few points.
-Needless to say, by you admitting that you "don't see the price drop happening" you are essentially proving my point. Your assuming it won't happen. Yet if it did, many many people would be fucked. Then what? Say "oops" and beg for them to repeal it? No.
-Grouping together and forming LLC's won't work for a combination of reasons. For one every partner you ad, you lose more income. Add one partner you lose 50%.
-Never heard a response to the fact that almost no small to medium sized growers who have hidden grows would suddenly start sending the government checks. This is essentially the "under the table" agenda. If you go into a job and an employer says "hey I'll pay you under the table" your not going to say "no, I WANT to pay 30% tax." Having a hidden garden which nobody knows about will only make this even more easy. All the assumed tax revenue to California is estimated on the assumption that everyone growing will pay taxes, and that just isn't going to happen.
-regarding the craft beer companies. Do some research on how many have tried and failed vs. the number who are actually financially successful.
To me it really comes down to this. You are a medium sized grower and everything is going well now. You don't pay taxes, you do have competition but it is healthy and you get to pay your bills and get compensated.
Now you are told that it might be legal so that anyone with money and desire can grow and sell bud. In addition you have to start paying a large chunk of your profit to taxes. Large companies will form who can and will open large production factories. Market becomes flooded, price plumets. To assume that 'tourists' would make up for this fact is just absurd (most tourists would go up to Humboldt anyway, and all would be interested in the larger companies, not some guy advertising out of his home with his one cool strain). In this situation what would you choose?
My claim from the getgo has simply been that your assertion that Prop 9 was a "win win, nobody loses" is blatantly false. To prove it is false all I had to do is show a group of people who would ultimately suffer from it passing and I have done so.
*Insert high school level condescending and seemingly witty comment here*
statusquo
Member
Haha well said man. K+ Good points and I definitely agree with you in regards to big herb too...
i really want to stay out of these prop 19 discussions, but i just wanted to say, this is one of the best posts ive read throughout this entire debate.....
where were you during all this heated debating?
you can commence the beating now.......
wow
Well.....L.L.C.'s only have Managers and/or Members so your assertion is wrong, what are the other reasons? That it is its own entity that legally protects the interested parties? Or the fact that your registered and have to pay taxes? ( Costs involved are a couple hundred bucks to start)
Nobody would have suffered from the passage of 19. It is a blanket for self interest. Might as well said it will hurt the children!
The fear of Corporations coming in is just that, fear. The warehouse grows that are going in are small business. The corporations that people mention are global and would not make the effort until the entire country was legal and Federal law has changed.
Stifling progress in the guise of prohibition will always be negative.
Cheers
StellarP
that's a billy madison refrence since you missed it....
So long story short people should goto jail for mj so growers don't have to pay taxes?
....that's pathetic bro.
statusquo
Member
No. Nobody ever said that people should go to jail so that we can avoid taxes, in fact nobody said anything about anybody going to jail for mj at all. Again, another inaccurate assumption/inference...I, and many other people that were against 19, when I was still opposed to 19, chose this position because I didn't want to act too quickly and settle on a sub-par piece of legislation just because the immediate short term benefits were enticing. There needs to be some part of the populous, however small, looking out for the long term interests too! haha The movement has momentum on its side so its fair that some don't want to settle/voluntarily support Richard Lee's grandiose attempt at establishing quasi-oligarchy over the CA MJ market. All that being said I did end up voting yes on 19, but for other reasons.
People need to be realistic and its going to take steps to get to full legalization, and yeah so what if richard lee had a big stake in it? did you put up 2million dollars to get this on the ballot? i know i cant come up with that kind of money. and if we are ever going to get to legalization someone is going to have to put that money up and guess what, they are going to do so knowing that there is going to be returns in it for them. nobody is going to just come to the table and put that kind of money down without wanting to see returns on their investment.
so a few things that are inevitable that people will need to compromise with so that we can get marijuana legalized:
1) someone somewhere is going to make big profits off it. and really i couldnt give a shit just as long as i can do what i want without worrying about feds kicking in my door. just because coors or budweiser makes massive profits, doesnt mean that grolsch or newcastle or red stripe cant. if you can make a good product than people will choose you.
2) mj prisoners are not going to be released. as much as id like to see this happend, it will simply kill any legalization before it even gets to the ballot. once legalized it will be easier to petition for early release, but dont expect a prop/bill that is going to come in raining absoulte freedom. again mj is still a social stigma and will take time to completly ratify all the injustice it's illegality has caused.
3) it has to be 21+. as much as i disagree with 18-20 not being able to smoke, this is another item that will leave it dead in the water before it hits election. people still see mj as bad and evil and the whole "think of the children" will still be brought to surface. 18-20 can still find mj through a street dealer or though 215. is it really such a big deal that they cant wait 2-3 years to be able to smoke completely legal? we dont see people calling for alcohol to be repealed because the 18-20 crowd cant consume.
>>>
and to all you small-to-medium growers. start saving that money. quit buying big screens and pit bulls and save all your profits so that when the next one does roll around, you will be able to lease warehouse space or buy land to cultivate. if you want to make this a legitimate business and base your whole income off it, start thinking like businessmen. work on a logo. work on your growing. perfect your methods, so when the time comes you can jump right into it and i gaurantee you your profits are going to jump. the supply will rise, but so will the demand. coped with the liscense fees, taxes, and all the overhead, id imagine prices staying at current level, maybe a bit cheaper. but top shelf is never going to fall under 200/oz. and if it does get as cheap as some people have made claims of (35-60/oz) then guess what. people will quit growing or start moving it out of state. big business growers will throw in the hat. supply will go down and demand will stay at same level causing prices to go back up. its all about supply and demand and people arent going to stick around if there is no profit in it.
id also suggest that some of you start looking into other marijuana ventures outside of growing and selling. there is alot to this plant, you just need to think outside of the box a little.
legalization is a good thing. and this is coming from someone who probably has grown more in the last 5 years then most people will in their lifetime.... just saying.
People need to be realistic and its going to take steps to get to full legalization, and yeah so what if richard lee had a big stake in it? did you put up 2million dollars to get this on the ballot? i know i cant come up with that kind of money. and if we are ever going to get to legalization someone is going to have to put that money up and guess what, they are going to do so knowing that there is going to be returns in it for them. nobody is going to just come to the table and put that kind of money down without wanting to see returns on their investment.
so a few things that are inevitable that people will need to compromise with so that we can get marijuana legalized:
1) someone somewhere is going to make big profits off it. and really i couldnt give a shit just as long as i can do what i want without worrying about feds kicking in my door. just because coors or budweiser makes massive profits, doesnt mean that grolsch or newcastle or red stripe cant. if you can make a good product than people will choose you.
2) mj prisoners are not going to be released. as much as id like to see this happend, it will simply kill any legalization before it even gets to the ballot. once legalized it will be easier to petition for early release, but dont expect a prop/bill that is going to come in raining absoulte freedom. again mj is still a social stigma and will take time to completly ratify all the injustice it has caused.
3) it has to be 21+. as much as i disagree with 18-20 not being able to smoke, this is another item that will leave it dead in the water before it hits election. people still see mj as bad and evil and the whole "think of the children" will still be brought to surface. 18-20 can still find mj through a street dealer or though 215. is it really such a big deal that they cant wait 2-3 years to be able to smoke completely legal? we dont see people calling for alcohol to be repealed because the 18-20 crowd cant consume.
>>>
and to all you small-to-medium growers. start saving that money. quit buying big screens and pit bulls and save all your profits so that when the next one does roll around, you will be able to lease warehouse space or buy land to cultivate. if you want to make this a legitimate business and base your whole income off it, start thinking like businessman. work on a logo. work on your growing. perfect your methods, so when the time comes you can jump right into it and i gaurantee you your profits are going to jump. the supply will rise, but so will the demand. coped with the liscense fees, taxes, and all the overhead, id imagine prices staying at current level, maybe a bit cheaper. but top shelf is never going to fall under 200/oz. and if it does get as cheap as some people have made claims of (35-60/oz) then guess what. people will quit growing or start moving it out of state. big business growers will throw in the hat. supply will go down and demand will stay at same level causing prices to go back up. its all about supply and demand and people arent going to stick around if there is no profit in it.
id also suggest that some of you start looking into other marijuana ventures outside of growing and selling. there is alot to this plant, you just need to think outside of the box a little.
legalization is a good thing. and this is coming from someone who probably has grown more in the last 5 years then most people will in their lifetime.... just saying.
good post......
statusquo
Member
Fair enough points, however we must be extremely careful in our analysis of what we think is worth giving up in exchange for legalization. The first time is the most important so we need to approach it right and make sure we are getting a fair deal.
In regards to nobody putting up the money unless they profit from it - this doesn't necessarily mean legally trying to establish control over the industry. I certainly don't have 2 million to put up but I think motives are pretty important when we look at political funding/campaign finance reports. And the fact that Bud/Anheuser make massive profits DOES mean that small brewers can't make massive profits...
As for there being as much money in it once it goes legal, look at any other agricultural field that's similar. It certainly doesn't appear the route to take if one's all about the money. Demand will increase, as you said, but the huge increase in supply will hurt the price so much the increase in demand won't come close to compensating for most growers. I do agree, however, that if you want growing to be your sole source of income, you should be good enough to cope with this change and be able to compete in an open market.
All that being said, I do think that legalization is a good thing in general, just as I said earlier we need to approach it carefully.
In regards to nobody putting up the money unless they profit from it - this doesn't necessarily mean legally trying to establish control over the industry. I certainly don't have 2 million to put up but I think motives are pretty important when we look at political funding/campaign finance reports. And the fact that Bud/Anheuser make massive profits DOES mean that small brewers can't make massive profits...
As for there being as much money in it once it goes legal, look at any other agricultural field that's similar. It certainly doesn't appear the route to take if one's all about the money. Demand will increase, as you said, but the huge increase in supply will hurt the price so much the increase in demand won't come close to compensating for most growers. I do agree, however, that if you want growing to be your sole source of income, you should be good enough to cope with this change and be able to compete in an open market.
All that being said, I do think that legalization is a good thing in general, just as I said earlier we need to approach it carefully.
stone brewing / karl strauss. if your from SD then you know full well that these are two breweries that started from very small things. hell i used to pick up kegs of stone years ago for $60 and they were happy as shit for the sale!! now i think they want almost twice that. theyve opened up a larger brewery and shut out their old brewery. theyve opened up a large beautiful restaurant. they are getting the wares known and more widely distributed.
i dont understand why you say there is no profit in it. if you look around town there are lots of breweries that have been opening and doing pretty damn well for themselfs. they have retained the coinneseur market. the demographic that wouldnt drink a coors or budweiser if it was the last beer on earth. they can charge more for their brews and people are happy to pay.
big business is just that. its all about big profits and highest profit-to-cost returns. why would they grow long flowering low yielding strains to make a few more dollars per purchase as compared to high yielding strain with a shorter flowering time that would produce 2x-3x the product in a shorter time?
i mean you really have to take into consideration what its all about. and these people just want the most return for their investment. plain and simple. are people going to buy the cheaper shit? of course. does that mean that no one anywhere will be able to make any money because of this? definatly not.
the market in CA is huuge. and coming from first hand experience, yeah there are peopel who just want some cheap shit to get them stoned. but ALOT of people come looking for the best they can find. there is a market for every demographic.
just look at the music business. i engineer and produce music in my spare time. and ive worked with artists who have done big things with very little. ive also worked with artists who i never imagined would do ANYTHING with their music (if you can even call it music), who have sent me pictures and videos of their tours from europe/uk where they have a massive following.
so its all in perspective. but we need to forward this movement. to continue to arrest people for something as elementary as weed is absurd and archaic and it is time to end this. ive lost so many friends to the corrupt justice and prison system. ive seen too many families broken up. ive seen so much wrong because of its illegality. its time to take mj into the 21st century and legalize it. coffeeshops, mj venues, mj festivals, mj expos, hemp plantations, mj grow tours, the whole 9 yards. there is so such a huge industryfor this, especially for the reputation CA has (best weed in the world). \
we are already one of the top tourist destinations, can you imagine how significant it would be if we legalized weed too? hell hopefully then i can goto the beach in the summer time and not have 5-10 tourists asking me if I know where they can get some smoke....
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It used to be ILLEGAL in Texas and else where for consenting adults to commit sodomy (fun anal and oral sex type of stuff).
In Lawrence v. Texas the US Supreme Court struck down Texas's criminal sodomy laws (effecting other states as well).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas
Since these NOW NULLIFIED UNCONSTITUTIONAL LAWS were struck down TX and other states had NO legal right to retain prisoners for these offenses.
If the states didn't free these UNCONSTITUTIONALLY incarcerated individuals (but I bet they did) then it is time to end this version of the experiment in government.
so we just have to get the us supreme court to strike down the states stance on cannabis? im not being a smart ass..but that seems like a tougher first step then say...i dunno....prop 19....ok...maybe im being a lil smartass...but cmon...
statusquo
Member
In regards to stone, IIRC they are not technically a 'microbrew' anymore (not 100% sure on this but point is they are not an average microbrew; they are must larger than average and one of the few that gained national recognition). However for most microbrews, they aren't doing that well. All of the microbrews combined have only 10% of the beer market share and many of them fail. Yes there are some that do alright and even some that do well, but many/most don't and eventually close.
I definitely agree with what you said about big business but I never said there are no profits to be made in the niche/connoisseur market. I said there aren't any kind of massive or significant profits. This doesn't mean that the small guys can't 'make it', though. I also agree that the giants will obviously focus on w.e phenotypes that generate the most profit (yield, pest resistance etc etc).
Lastly, I also agree with CA being a huge market and there being plenty of room for niche cannabis markets. That being said however, I think most people wouldn't end up making it and only a small % of the micro-weed-corps would make any significant monies. I think the majority of people would buy the cheap mainstream stuff, however, just like beer. I mean a bunch of people in SD who are surrounded by great micro-brews still drink Coors/Natty/Bud etc all the time =/
I love you idea but it seams unfair to keep pepol away from growing legal on a 5by5 area just because we cant have it all.
Separate but equal (Plessy v. Ferguson), Slavery is perfectly fine (Dred Scott), Ban on Inter-racial marriage UNCONSTITUTIONAL (Loving v. Virginia), Ban on sodomy UNCONSTITUTIONAL (Lawrence v. Texas).
It is not the states stance on cannabis, it is the fucking federal governments stance on cannabis which is UNCONSTITUTIONAL, no where in our founding document does the federal government have the power to outlaw a plant.
We don't have to wait for shit and I smoke daily. Did the unfortunate blacks have to wait for a supreme court decision? Or did they just have to live through a period of injustice?
Prop 19 sucks donkey dick when compared to the Alaska supreme court decision that FOUND a sate constitutional right to privacy, and that penumbra of privacy extended to growing and consuming cannabis on your own property.
If Alaska can find privacy in its state constitution, it seems like a fucking easy piece of cake that the CA supreme court could find a similar privacy right in the CA constitution.
Remember GAY MARRIAGE was CA CONSTITUTIONALLY legal as determined by the CA Supreme Court. Then the FUCK HEAD MORMONS and others in the Golden State amended their constitution to include hate and discrimination (Way to go church of loser day saints).
A CA Supreme Court challenge should be way cheaper than Prop 19, and you only have to convince a small number of already liberal judges. Doesn't that seem easier than a VERY BADLY written prop?
You shouldn't wait for ANYTHING or ANYONE you should live free today and refuse to obey immoral laws.
**sigh** yal need to lose this whole all-or-nothing attitude. its not going to get us anywhere.
when i was 16 i wanted a car. but not just any car. i wanted a 1969 camaro 7.0 liter v8. since i couldnt afford the car. i bought a schwinn bicycle. that bike got me to work to make a paycheck. once i saved up i was able to buy a car. not the car i wanted, but the one i could afford. years later after working and working i was able to get the car i wanted and the hard work had paid off and made me appreciate the vehicle even more then had i just been given it...
the moral of the story here is just because you want something and think you deserve it, doesnt mean your going to get it. sometimes you have to put in alot of hard work, effort and compromise to get to your final destination. otherwise your going to be riding that schwinn around for the rest of your life...
