Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique?

[knna]

This one bit is the only bit that does make sense.

"It is not advisable to defoliate and train one and allow the neighboring plant to leaf out and get tall. The leafy one will shade out direct and reflective light and the comparison would be invalid."

Well no it wont be invalid rather completely valid.

The more leaves the more photosynthesis the bigget and stronger the plant gets. How can less photosynthesis incrase yeild?

Pretty much everything i have read here defies logic. How you all convinced yourself that this is a good idea frys my mind.

Seriously will someone just stick 2 clones OUTSIDE in the sun and do defoliation on one. That will take reflected light out of the equation and the results will be %100 valid.

Seriously who made this thread a sticky??? Any why??? What nonsense

If anyone wants a Hi-Yield Technique see the "A Complete Guide to Topping, Training and Pruning" thread and try your best to forget everything you have read here.

It sickens me to see this thread as a sticky on ICMAG! The best growers and breeders in the world are here.

I feel this thread detracts from ICMAGs prestige and brings us down. I feel we are all more stupid for reading it. How this got to be a 100 page thread and a sticky blows my mind!

Having common sense is always good. But plants dont use common sense to grow, do it through very complex procceses that nobody understand fully.

Sometimes things that your intuition says will work, dont do it, while things that seem against general rules works perfect.

Many people is using this technique sucessfully with excelent results. So dont blame it if you have not tried it. If you dont like it, dont use it, but dont write about what do you not know, it is very stupid.

 

[JWP]

Bad Idea

"I leave NO fans, even in veg. Fans are the culprits."

You cant be serious?

The plant on the right is too leafy. It's ready for a good pluck

Good Idea

Hi folks i'm new here and this is my first post.
Here's one of the last scrogs i did, thought you might like to see.
The strain was chronic from serious seeds, vegged for 5 weeks and flowered for 8 (used GH Ripen @ the end).
It was grown in a big storage tub; the medium consisted of 2-3'' of pure hydroton in the bottom with airstone, then the majority of the tub filled with pure diced rockwool/cellmax & a layer of pebbles again on the top to keep algae at bay. I used a 400W sylvannia growlux HPS and canna substra nutes with canna pk as a boost. GH Ripen was used for the final week and the harvest total was 16oz! For ages i've been getting 12oz per 400W grow and this chronic/scrog combo has smashed my record completely
Any questions, just fire away

 

[JWP]

Having common sense is always good. But plants dont use common sense to grow, do it through very complex procceses that nobody understand fully.

Sometimes things that your intuition says will work, dont do it, while things that seem against general rules works perfect.

Many people is using this technique sucessfully with excelent results. So dont blame it if you have not tried it. If you dont like it, dont use it, but dont write about what do you not know, it is very stupid.

Show us 2 plants side by side and prove that Defoliation increases yeild!

You cant and you never will!

 

[High Country]

I thought most Aussies were allergic to bullshit High Country..

Ask Kodiak if it should be added to the guide and he will laugh his ass off.

Doing this to a plant and cutting the leaves off are not even close to being related. One will increase the yeild and one will decrease the yeild..

I'm prepared to let people experiment, try new ways, I do it a lot when cloning. So if people want to try something different, why not. That's how we learn.

 

[JWP]

I'm prepared to let people experiment, try new ways, I do it a lot when cloning. So if people want to try something different, why not. That's how we learn.

Believe me bro i agree 100%

But i see no experiments here?
Just a bunch of talk and misinformation

Words lie! Experiments dont. Show us the side by sides...

 

[High Country]

Believe me bro i agree 100%

But i see no experiments here?
Just a bunch of talk and misinformation

Words lie! Experiments dont. Show us the side by sides...

Shalom.

 

[JWP]

In most cases I have seen where defoliation has occurred, it is the result of an impatient grower who cannot help himself from fiddling with his plants. To me, intentional defoliation is a sign of an immature grower.

I think this whole episode has started as an experienced saying to a new grower when looking at his plant "if you trim this leaf here and allow light to this bud it will grow". Then the experienced grower leaves and the new grower thinks cutting off leaves is a good idea and goes overboard

 

[150wclub]

I have my own theory on why Defoliation works. I think theres more to it then extra light hitting the bud sites.

There was a video on someones signature on here, cant remember whos it was, (if you guys know or have seen the video please post a link, i saw it on youtube, but anyway.

When reading my reason on why defoliation works, its important to remember the plant only cares about one thing and that is to propagate the next generation.


The video basicly says that the plants produced THC as a defense mechanism from Animals , insects , etc. One of the ways it did this is by making the animal that was feeding on it forgetful , so it can forget that plant and its location.

Now when we defoliate the plant thinks "ohh no , A animal is eating all my leaves" so it kicks the making of THC and the buds into high gear, to help defend it self.

With the constant striping of the fan leaves , the plant puts priority to BUD development and Trichome development instead of fan leaf production, Even though the fan leaf are its "solar panels" so is the rest of the plant , The buds , stems , etc. (except the roots obv)
So the plant wants to increase its surface area of the BUD for more light absorption, More surface area for seeds to develop , more THC to help defend it from predators , and higher chance to get pollinated to propagate the next generation , and less apeal to predators if it has no tasty leaves to munch on.

I have no way of proving this, just speculation.

Let me know what you guys think , and if you want to explain any thing ambiguous in my post le me know.

Thanks.

 

[High Country]

This works too, no defoliation, clones in at 4 per sq/ft straight on to 12/12, 1000W HPS, 3x3 ebb/flow tray, 36 clones......

AND SINGLE COLAS 3' LONG AT THE END

TRIMMED AND A BUNCH OF CLONES

That's just the way I do it, but I'm prepared to listen to both sides of the argument.

 

[JWP]

Defoliation: Low-Yield Technique

Defoliation: Low-Yield Technique

I have my own theory on why Defoliation works. I think theres more to it then extra light hitting the bud sites.

There was a video on someones signature on here, cant remember whos it was, (if you guys know or have seen the video please post a link, i saw it on youtube, but anyway.

When reading my reason on why defoliation works, its important to remember the plant only cares about one thing and that is to propagate the next generation.


The video basicly says that the plants produced THC as a defense mechanism from Animals , insects , etc. One of the ways it did this is by making the animal that was feeding on it forgetful , so it can forget that plant and its location.

Now when we defoliate the plant thinks "ohh no , A animal is eating all my leaves" so it kicks the making of THC and the buds into high gear, to help defend it self.

With the constant striping of the fan leaves , the plant puts priority to BUD development and Trichome development instead of fan leaf production, Even though the fan leaf are its "solar panels" so is the rest of the plant , The buds , stems , etc. (except the roots obv)
So the plant wants to increase its surface area of the BUD for more light absorption, More surface area for seeds to develop , more THC to help defend it from predators , and higher chance to get pollinated to propagate the next generation , and less apeal to predators if it has no tasty leaves to munch on.

I have no way of proving this, just speculation.

Let me know what you guys think , and if you want to explain any thing ambiguous in my post le me know.

Thanks.

I understand your train of thought, but it is wrong.

A lesson in logic;

The plant uses photosynthesis for its energy.

It uses this energy to make BIG buds for reproduction.

If you take away the leaves you take away the plants ability to produce energy the plant will use what energy it has to produce more leaves for more energy making.

The energy used to create the new leaves takes away from energy that could have gone into making bigger buds..

You have to ask yourself why does the plant put out leaves in the first place?

And you want to cut them off? lol

 

[High Country]

I have my own theory on why Defoliation works. I think theres more to it then extra light hitting the bud sites.

There was a video on someones signature on here, cant remember whos it was, (if you guys know or have seen the video please post a link, i saw it on youtube, but anyway.

When reading my reason on why defoliation works, its important to remember the plant only cares about one thing and that is to propagate the next generation.


The video basicly says that the plants produced THC as a defense mechanism from Animals , insects , etc. One of the ways it did this is by making the animal that was feeding on it forgetful , so it can forget that plant and its location.

Now when we defoliate the plant thinks "ohh no , A animal is eating all my leaves" so it kicks the making of THC and the buds into high gear, to help defend it self.

With the constant striping of the fan leaves , the plant puts priority to BUD development and Trichome development instead of fan leaf production, Even though the fan leaf are its "solar panels" so is the rest of the plant , The buds , stems , etc. (except the roots obv)
So the plant wants to increase its surface area of the BUD for more light absorption, More surface area for seeds to develop , more THC to help defend it from predators , and higher chance to get pollinated to propagate the next generation , and less apeal to predators if it has no tasty leaves to munch on.

I have no way of proving this, just speculation.

Let me know what you guys think , and if you want to explain any thing ambiguous in my post le me know.

Thanks.

Interesting, might look into that one. Many resins produced in plants are a protection against the environment, the sun, wind and rain. Maybe if they get more of that they will produce more resin.

 

[Pompey_Monkey]

This guy is "de-limbed" -

Sure as heck he can run, but to run fast he needs rebuilding...

I have my own opinion about defoliation, but I'm still reading this thread with interest!

 

[prowler]

I understand your train of thought, but it is wrong.
...
If you take away the leaves you take away the plants ability to produce energy the plant will use what energy it has to produce more leaves for more energy making.

So is yours. I am not 600+ poster and i do not consider myself as a professional but still i have proved this theory to be wrong in my own garden. You can produce leafy buds when you constantly move your plants around in different lighting position - not when you plug leaves.

There is a lot more to it than anyone knows. Mother nature is still a complete mystery. And you have to remember that no one has proven your theories right and still you demand proof from defoliators. You radiate an evil form of pure hating in your posts to this topic that is hard to find here in ICMag and to be honest your comments are something i do not want to see in here - not this topic as a sticky and 90+ pages of replies.

 

[Guest 26753]

A little word to the wise from a wise old cannabis warrior...some of the most drastic mistakes in growing cannabis come from over-intellectualising simplicity

 

[joe4444]

JWP, you said it yourself: "I didn't read the whole thread."

If you didn't read everything, how can you say there is no proof and no side by side comparison? Don't call bullshit and then take the time to post 8 replies if you're not going to take the time to read people's reports of their own experience. Read every page, search the forums and read multiple threads on the subject, and then you can bitch about it. I'm sure you'll still be able to pick out a few individuals, or maybe a lot of newbs, who pluck everything in sight every other day and stress the fuck out of their plants. That's not what this technique is about. Take some time to find the people who are practicing this in a reasonable manner and you will see the results.

Actually, why don't YOU run a side by side and prove ALL the pro-defoliation growers wrong.

If you don't want to reasonable and do either of those things (both of which you seem to think you have a right to demand from everyone), then just fuck off.

By the way, I've never practiced this technique but plan to do so in my next grow based on what I've seen after reading this whole thread.

 

[JWP]

If you guys want to do this its up to you to decide.
What i'm against is a mod spreading this misinformation by making the thread a sticky. Someone who should definitely know better. It makes all of us here at ICMAG look like gullible idiots.

joe4444, if i claim the world is flat the burden of proof is on me. You guys are claiming defoliation increases yeild, the burden of proof is on YOU.

I dont need to read 95 pages to know its bullshit, the title says it all..

100 pages and still no proof.. Why do you think that is?

JWP, you said it yourself: "I didn't read the whole thread."

If you didn't read everything, how can you say there is no proof and no side by side comparison? Don't call bullshit and then take the time to post 8 replies if you're not going to take the time to read people's reports of their own experience. Read every page, search the forums and read multiple threads on the subject, and then you can bitch about it. I'm sure you'll still be able to pick out a few individuals, or maybe a lot of newbs, who pluck everything in sight every other day and stress the fuck out of their plants. That's not what this technique is about. Take some time to find the people who are practicing this in a reasonable manner and you will see the results.

Actually, why don't YOU run a side by side and prove ALL the pro-defoliation growers wrong.

If you don't want to reasonable and do either of those things (both of which you seem to think you have a right to demand from everyone), then just fuck off.

By the way, I've never practiced this technique but plan to do so in my next grow based on what I've seen after reading this whole thread.

You radiate an evil form of pure hating in your posts to this topic that is hard to find here in ICMag and to be honest your comments are something i do not want to see in here - not this topic as a sticky and 90+ pages of replies.

prowler, im sory you see me in that light. Im just trying to save all you new guys a bunch of time and heartache. i will try my best to post in a more positive manner. its not evil hate that drives me. its good love for this plant that motivates me and i dont like to see you guys being led in the wrong direction

 

[joe4444]

I dont need to read 95 pages to know its bullshit, the title says it all..

100 pages and still no proof.. Why do you think that is?

So which is it, you read every page or you read only the title? Again, if you haven't READ the whole thing how do you KNOW there is no proof?

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Defoliation does not increase yield.
Large fan leaves should only be removed from a plant if the leaf becomes diseased/infested or yellows.
Undergrowth that is not well lit and is destined to become larfy and worthless should be removed before moving into flowering.

The leaves are "the solar panels" which provide energy for "the factory"

Fewer leaves, less photosynthesis, lower production.


If you imagine a leaf is blocking something important, tuck it under.

 

[JWP]

So which is it, you read every page or you read only the title? Again, if you haven't READ the whole thing how do you KNOW there is no proof?

joe4444, im not here to argue with you or anyone about this. But i have some time to spare so i will give you a little more of my time. But i have to warn you if someone doesnt say something logical and resonable in this thread soon i will give up and "just fuck off" as you put it.

Your question is; how do you KNOW there is no proof?

I KNOW there is no proof because you know that i made "8 replies" and you also know i didnt read every page because i said so in post #1413 which means you have read post #1413

In post #1413 not once but three times i ask for someone to point me in the direction of proof.

I KNOW you are just dying to have some proof so you can say "JWP here is your proof, now fuck off".

If proof existed you would have done exactly that. But you have not.

This is my proof that no proof exists

 

[staff11]

I just did this in Veg for 4 weeks. I can tell you that you are wrong for sure. I have been doing both of these strains for a long time now, so I know how they grow normally. If I did not defoliate, I could not veg for 2 weeks without having to flip or I would outgrow my tent. The plants I defoliated in Veg are by far the shortest plants I have ever had at this stage. They also have the most potential bud sites at this stage. I topped once, that is it and have been plucking like mad.

By plucking the fan leaves, you are giving light to areas that barely get light. If you are an experienced grower you know what happens to lower growth once it gets blocked by light. Those branches do not grow much, they stretch, get lanky and the leaves fade and fall off. This will not even come close to happening to me.

I am doing this in veg on all of my future plants. If you defoliate in veg you can keep them a better size. With my Blumats the plants grow so fast, I need to slow them down!!

First of all to tell me I am wrong that's fine, however you can accomplish the same exact thing by topping an tying the plant down ALL WITHOUT SLOWING GROWTH IN VEG. If you have height restrictions then use LST. Why slow growth down by removing fan leaves in veg?

To keep a plant shorter AND have vigorous growth I would MUCH rather use a form of LOW STRESS training, then strip the very leaves of that fuel strong vegetative growth/root development. I also just top once, then tie down the shoots that want to grow straight to the light. I just accomplished the same thing, all without removing fan leaves......

Again this technique is just another form of suppercropping by bending the plant down to force secondary shoots to grow taller due to influencing the plants hormones. Slowing down growth in ANY period is not a goal of mine.

Getting a plant bushier can be done in more then one way, and I will take the vigorous growth in veg by not removing leaves and tying down over stripping a plant and stunting it veg. Have you ever bothered to train the plant through low stress techniques?

Again I can see how it might help add bulk to lower bud sites that would obviously be shaded, but in veg there are better ways to accomplish growing bushes.

And easy with the "experienced grower knows crap", how in the hell do you know how long I have been growing? And just so all you believers know, I am trying it out on a clone, in veg right now. I will try to post up a few picks of the plant in a few hours after work. Also have the exact strain that I didn't touch except for my normal top above the fourth node and tie those bitches down. We shall see.....

And it isn't the blumats that make your plant grow "so fast" LOL