Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique?

[delta9nxs]

Quotes by disciple.

Hi, disciple, nice to meet you! There are a few things here that you have touched on that i've been meaning to address here also.

“I found water uptake drops immediately after defoliation. By a week later it picks up again to varying degrees depending on what stages the plants are at.”

I am running a rather unusual system that I have been experimenting with for about a year. One of the features is that the reservoir levels are established and controlled by a float valve.

Before I began defoliating the drip rate at the float valve was 102-105 drips per minute. Now that I am in full defoliating mode the drip rate is around 60 per minute.


“However, my relative humidity immediately dropped leading me to believe that less transpiration was happening.”

my humidity also dropped by about 7-8%.


“In my flood and drain situation, I did notice the res level remaining higher than normal (less solution used) and right after defoliation for almost 1.5 weeks EC and pH fluctuations basically froze. At that point I would "normally" see pH level rise or lower as well as a corresponding change in EC (up or down as the case may be).

Both a static level of nute solution as well as no change in numbers leads me to believe that in the flood and drain, transpiration (and growth) temporarily hit the brakes after defoliation.”

i'm seeing a slight slowdown defoliating at end of stretch for a few days, but not much. Maximum stature has already been achieved, now you are just growing bud.


“If I follow k33ftr33z precisely and prepare the plants starting in veg, change in transpiration after each defoliation is less noticeable GROWTH RATE REMAINS CONSISTENT -

If I just defoliate an otherwise "normal" plant (ie. one not prepared from veg), the effect on transpiration of defoliation is quite dramatic. GROWTH RATE STOPS UNTIL RECOVERY -

you want to follow k33ftr33z method (obviously) “

Unless you are defoliating in flower and that simple one time stripping increases your yield by 4 zips per plant.

K33ftr33z's method is designed to control vertical growth while still maintaining the bud sites. As I have no vertical limitations it has not been that important for me to start earlier.

However, I am now facing another problem with overall plant size. A series of other yield boosting changes over the year has my plants getting not just taller but much more massive all around. Lately I have broken some large limbs just trying to move them into position. I'm also having increasing difficulty keeping them out of the lights.

With all this in mind I just lightly DF'd an 8” clone recently transplanted into the system. I will run several of them in a row in an attempt to control growth and still get this fantastic yield i've been enjoying.


“*pending on how big the plant is @ defoliation, might be an idea to back off on ec a bit then gradually work back up as plant adjusts. more relevant for extreme and sudden defoliation (exactly what K33ftr33z advised against... but there must be at least one other person out there like me who can't follow directions).”

that would be me. Before DF I was running ec 1.8-2.0 in flower so I just continued. Within a week symptoms of over ferting started displaying. Hook with tip and edge burn. All at once yet with stable ph. I backed it down to 1.2 and everything cleared up. So I have been running the flower side on this for a while with no loss of yield.


“At least one drawback i've noticed with the "extreme and sudden" approach is increases in total time. However, the alternative is overcrowding and although things went a week or so longer, the yield was substantially higher than if I hadn't done it.”

my experience using a 7-8 week veg with the one time DF at end of stretch is that my plants are finishing earlier at 8-8.5 weeks instead of 9.



“There are no delays in flower if you follow K33ftr33z advice of beginning prep in veg and in many cases users will experience a reduction in flower time, but with a higher yield.”

agreed.

d9

 

[Dave Coulier]

Thanks for the very well detailed response Disciple.

I was asking about temps and bud density because my buds this harvest are light and fluffy. Even 50% Indicas are light and fluffy.

They look nice and feel fairly dense when on the plant, but once harvested, they just deflate and are fluffy as you mentioned.

Ive had to deal with temps in 80's and into the 90's at times this summer thanks to the heatwave that doesn't end. It definitely has resulted in fluffier buds than my last winter grow.

Humidity has also been an issue as well. Typically 60% during lights on, and up to 78% at lights off with extraction fan running 24/7 venting outside. Thankfully no mold problems. *keep my fingers crossed*

I suspected both of these problems during the grow contributed to my fluffy buds. Thanks for helping me out.

 

[!!!]

Just came across this by Ed Rosenthal:
http://www.mjgrowers.com/book_lets_research.htm

 

[Panconqueso]

great info !!!

Cheers

 

[philmb]

So 2 things are apperant so far:

ONE: It's a seriously borin n tedious thing to be trimming all that bloody leaf... aaaaaaagh!!!!

TWO: Its pretty impressive how fast the leaf grows back, its been less than a week since i trimmed last n there allready full of leaf.

So here is some photo's.. heres a before and after..

So just in the process of harvesting now. Not got weights yet, but i can definatly see that the side i didnt defoly has a much bigger yeild. So dont look like it worked for me n my grapefruit. But hey, each to there own!! If it works for ya, do it!!

Didnt for me though....

 

[Guest 107167]

Well k33ftr33z I wasn't negative about defoliation thing at all, actually I like this technique, I just wanted to know how much more does it give dry weight compared to natural grow.

 

[darrmann]

Dave,

Don't judge a book by it's cover...he's been growing and knows more than an average 26 post poster...he's new here perhaps...but not new to the game. I gave him some rep for that answer to you.

No no no...don't let it go to wilt...THAT is the problem people get into who are afraid to over water. They let it get TOO dry and the root hairs die, only to get stuck sitting in some water logged soil for too long. You MUST find that balance..."dry" but not dried out.

The roots search because they're growing...just like it's growing above...not to specifically "search" for water. I think you understand that? Don't let it get too dry...but don't let it stay too wet. A lot of people kill or stunt their plants with too severe a wet/dry cycle.

Ability to uptake water/nutrients is the limiting factor to a plants size. You "could" grow a huge plant in a cup IF you could get the roots packed in there perfectly and kept them bathed with the perfect nute/oxygen mixture. The roots are the mouth of the plant...they take in food and water...if the mouth is too small, the plant can't get as big...it can't get any more food/water to support a bigger plant...it get's pot bound and stops growing. That's how pot size determines plant size. If you want 8ft trees...you need 100-200 gallon pots. Otherwise, you'd have to keep a nutrient solution going constantly and you'd now be growing hydroponically...so you CAN get a bigger yield from a smaller pot IF you change your growing technique.

But yes...bottom line, I agree with deciple, a new grower has no business trying defoliation on a first or the first few grows. Get your chops first...then you can get fancy. Get a yield before you go for yield...does that make sense?

I'm not accusing you of being a new grower...I'm not saying this isn't for you...I'm just reiterating what deciple said and agreeing with it. And, I wanted to be sure you were straight about when to water.

Good luck!

I totally disagree about who should do this. You guys who know everything dont think a newbie can handle this. If they read this whole thing and pick out the bullshit and go for the consistent comments or better just listen to k33 you shouldnt have much of a problem. Barring one thing i beleive. You need to maintain at least a couple grows with no problems healthy plants all the way threw. I beleive if you can do this then you can go forward and defoliate. If you cant then dont try till you can. Ive got just a few good grows with no problems and went forward with this on over seventy plants and there looking beautiful. just by looking can expect double if not trippling my yeild. I had the quality and problem free grow but couldnt wait to try this and am amazed.Let people decide for thereselves. maybe suggest they try a plant first but dont discourage people not to just because of there knowledge. How can you learn if you dont try. everything I have done in my life ive dived into with little thought that i could do it. If i ran into a problem went to someone who did know.

 

[Bob-Hope]

just a quick update, plants have had 6 days of 12/12 and are just starting to settle down,ive reduced the e.c by 50% to 1.2,and let the ph rise to around 5.9/6, plants are ruffly stretching 1" a day,ive placed some 6" pea netting over the plants, hopefully by day 14 of 12/12 they will of made it to the outer edges,meaning i can lower my light.plants have had a total of 8 days in the wilma,and have not had any leaf removed for 12 days,im tempted to remove a few,but think i will resist as i need the stretch.

Bob

 

[ibjamming]

So Bob, the top picture is defoliated and the bottom isn't? Otherwise everything's the same? Or, is the top defoliated and this is the same plants later? How much later?

darrmann,

We actually agree...I don't think a first timer should try this...after a successful grow, try anything you want. Hopefully, you'll be able to salvage it if you go too far.

 

[Bob-Hope]

@ ibj the top picture is of the plants ive posted over the last 5 wks.all are between 2/3/4/5/7 weeks vege none are over 17" tall and all are full off bud sites,all the plants in the picture had there leaf removed from being 10 days old.
The bottom picture is of the same plants.they have not had a single leaf removed for the 4 days prier to going into 12/12.
and they are now on day 6 ov 12/12 so a total of 10 days so far,i intend to not remove any leaf during the first 16/21 days of flower,as i need the stretch that the fan leaves give me,at this point im going to pull nearly every single leaf of the plant ,bend and twist it back under the pea netting,lower my light,up my feed ,sit back and watch massive buds form before my very eyes. hope this helps.

Bob

 

[disciple]

 

[Mr Celsius]

i've done something like this before... : /

I didn't train the plants from the beginning, so I can't really comment with confidence... but I didn't notice vast, if any improvement. I also didn't notice any harm, so knock yourself out.

All I know is how plant biology works... and photosynthesis is very important

 

[headstone]

I like the idea in theory, but I've always been off the belief a plant starts with 100% potential and cutting anything off only lowers that. I haven't gone through this entire thread yet, but I will over the next few days to see if there is a side by side comparison grow or some other proof that it works.

If there is nothing proving it works I'll be taking some cuttings in a few weeks so I'll take a couple extra cuts and do a side by side test grow in my tent

 

[Bob-Hope]

@ disciple. another great post.

 

[darrmann]

I'd prefer not being included in the category of "guys who know everything"

what is your definition of newbie?

mine is someone sitting over his first rooted clone and about to pull off all the leaves after (6) or (7) nodes have formed once he's figured out what a node is. How much experience do you think is necessary before a new grower will have the confidence to attempt LST in the manner described? (Bend branches over while crushing the stem and twisting?) It looks really bad and damaged when first done.... but of course it's the results we are after.


my comment @Jürarrac was a sarcastic reference to a fictitious "cannabis institute" in Holland that does not exist. I felt he posted a "follow-on" question to find a shortcut to his answer and that is disrespectful to posters such as K33f and Delta who have patiently carried this thread through (80) pages.

I feel that if growers aren't prepared to read through the thread to gain understanding, they shouldn't attempt the technique.

If they do read through the thread, in addition to the skill they pickup from K33f, they get the added bonus of other super-valuable information.



ok... so you're metric is (2) or (3) grows? that will take between (4) and (9) months to complete depending on several factors. I feel that if the gardener is carefully observant during that (4) to (9) month period, he will learn a substantial amount and I'm not sure how we can call him a newbie....

maybe we are saying the same things... we might have the same definition of a newbie and possibly your ideas do not disagree with mine as much as you thought.



why are you ambiguous about your plant count? Do your plants move around and hide? Do some migrate? A statement of "over seventy plants" appears to have been included to validate your experience and add credibility to your opinions. What are your garden parameters? Are you growing all those plants exactly as K33f suggests; each has about a 3'x3'x3' area and has been heavily trained.

K33f advocates this method, in part, because it allowed him to achieve his yield objectives while dramatically lowering his plant count. I have archived copies (from Agent-Smith waaaaayyy back) of his original SOG grow tunnels using 400W lights. He demonstrated how to build an almost free parabolic reflector while adjust-a-wings cost almost $200 each. In addition to plant count, he states in this thread that he appreciates a little less maintenance and also more consistency plant to plant.

So are you doing the same as he is? Only with 70-ish plants?? That is a huge fucking amount of work!!! I commend you. How are you lighting it?

In my last post with (4) pictures, the first (2) show an example of one of my (72) plant vertical gardens. It is called "The Cage" and is available at aristabc.com. I do not do as heavy training or shaping as K33f but the principles apply exactly the same. The systems are each lit with 1400W (1.4K). It goes 1200W till week 4 then 1600W till week 8. The goal is to get each plant up over an ounce and this can be achieved depending on your skillz. Some plants approach (2) oz (a tribute to k33f's comments on inconsistency in high-density SOG situations).



My original commentary with Dave Coulier originated over photos of a small plant in a dixie cup that was not happy. Nothing discouraging was said in that exchange other than it would be a good idea for any grower attempting defoliation to first have a handle on irrigation as if that was screwed up, the increased yield from defoliation would not overcome the loss of yield from under/overwatering.

My comment @Jürarrac was that if you can't be bothered to read a few pages, don't bother asking stupid questions.

Tell me how a grower with even a small amount of experience can't think for a minute and go: "Well, bud-sites with more light on them produce bigger, fuller, more well-developed bud. This technique allows more bud-sites to be in full light. The photos posted show more bud. Hhhmmmm.... I conclude this technique will produce more bud per unit of space and unit of light" ??

I'd have a hard time recommending defoliation to a grower who can't arrive at the aforementioned conclusion on his own.

The most important question that K33f (and others) answer, in my opinion, is: "I think I'll get more yield, however, If I do this to my plants, will they be ok??". The answer is yes IF YOU PREP IN VEG.



What are we doing here? Why are you here? I'm here to optimize.

30%-40% of the work we do produces 60%-70% of the potential yield we get. We build and equip our grow space. We plant, water and feed.

The remaining 30-ish% of potential yield we can achieve comes from fine-tuning/optimizing (or just actually doing) the other 60%-70% of work.

Some examples are:

- not training your plants vs. doing it once or constantly
- defoliating then doing it again, again, again and again
- treating pests infestations
- realizing better control over temperatures (and then specifically at key times)
- carefully engineering the composition of your nutrient solution
- determining how to optimally light your grow space under the constraints of whatever limiting factors are present
- improving the quality of your water
- managing the spectrum of light falling on your garden

The point is that all that extra work only achieves at most a 5% - 10% improvement in each specific area but we do it because, in aggregate, the results of each individual improvement can give us that 30% boost in yield.

Clearly the defoliation method alone can add a significant boost to yield and it can be certainly more than 30% if pre-defoliation conditions were really bad. My guesstimate of 30% assumes pre-existing conditions were well under control (ie. not overcrowded etc.). An example would be a few home depot buckets under a 1K light but run properly. That does not take much work. Then switching to no medium (water only), a different reflector and some heavy interaction with the plant starting in veg.

I'm glad you have found your approach rewarding. Just "diving in with little thought" is the antithesis of optimization which requires careful consideration, measurement and adjustment. I'm a fan of optimization because it makes my yields larger.

peace

alls i can say is I agree with most of what you say. I dont see this technique as hard a lst certainly because of the bending and crushing. Didnt see this to that extent. Yes 70 girls looking awesome in soil and another 24 just put in an ebb and flow. first go round with ebb and flow. Plenty of room, 4 car garage totally sealed. 10 thowys are my lights. Its alot of work but so enjoyable seeing how much more im going to get. I didnt give little thought untill I read this whole thread and yes all 1000 + of them. I thought with all i just learned why not go all out. If i did just half and got twice the amount id be bummed i didnt do them all so yea dove right in. But i felt I had a couple trouble free grows and was confident in my ability to get them threw healthy . That would have been my only stopper, because if you dont have leavees its hard to diagnose illness. So yea that was my only thought on this. my bad on not reading all the post associated with your comment

 

[mohan]

Just wanted to let you guys in here know that this technique is the sh@t. Been lurkin for a while gaining information and ended up trying this. So far so good. When I get my hands on a camara, Im gonna post the pics.

FYI:Im doing outdoor Big Bang (ghs) and they take to it well.

 

[darrmann]

Just came across this by Ed Rosenthal:
http://www.mjgrowers.com/book_lets_research.htm

And thats why eds an oldtimer who will never change. I have found many things ed has said that ive proven wrong as well as have others i talk among. In the end he still doesnt advocate this in any way. And if you read this whole thread you will see theres many people who have tried this for the first time and are amased by the results. Do you really think k33 would go threw all this negatism and try to mislead people. I really dont think so.,but to those doubters just try one plant and if you follow k33 to the tee i dont see you going back.

 

[blancorasta]

check it out guys i did this on my outdoor and even started once it had been in flower for a few weeks. there was no noticable shock what so ever, and there is way more light to way more bud sites. there are still leaves around the buds themselves and those could be used to diagnose illness but if your ontop of things in the first place you shouldnt have to many issues.



Some White Widow before and after defoliation

Before


After



Cola Before


And After



And some Chemdog Double D before and after defoliation

Before


After



Cola Before


And After



peace

 

[BorkBorkBork]

Nice bushes, love the outdoor plot!

 

[mohan]

Few quick pics...

I started these I think in June sometime

Big Bangs About 3 weeks in flower

2nd

Sorry for pic quality in advance