Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique?

[Scrogerman]

Just a quick note - I was thinking of trying this technique on just one or two of my plants but had a PM problem during veg so I plucked all the leaves that had issues before my Eagle 20 came in.

My (inexperienced) observations - Defoliation does indeed promote additional lower growth and keep the plants more compact, while lengthening veg. I think I removed too many leaves too often for my 4x4 scrog setup, as I'm left with a lot of lower growth that takes quite a while to reach the screen. I wish I'd left the leaves on one plant alone to be able to actually analyze rather than guess.

For those that have experience with defoliation and scrogs - what do you do? I think for my next batch of clones I will allow them to gain a lot more height under the screen before defoliating. Keep in mind I'm using only 3-4 plants to cover an area at least 4x4 under 1kw light.

Any input appreciated =)

Yeah, what i always do is wait really. let the plant fill out & most of the Screen, then remove the lower 1/3 to 1/2 of foliage & sucker branches(ones that will never make it to Canopy level)completely.(i do actually start taking leaf from the bottom around 2 weeks before the start of 12/12, slowly-like a small handfull each day!)
I mostly start removing leaves(the bulk of) after ive flipped to 12/12 & stop around 21 days into bloom. i always try to leave the upper 1/3rd of foliage alone, only taking a few problematic leaves, /ones shading other budsites out etc. & use the tucking tecnique also. heres a pic:

The bottom 1/2 of pretty much all foliage & suker branches completely removed on this Scrog! Leaving all the plants energy to concentrate where it matters. Minimising popcorn.

 

[Natagonnaworrie]

ya, here is a shot of what i am currently doing now. its not a scrog but i remove anything that doesn't get me a top cola.

 

[k33ftr33z]

I never said that, in fact what I said was close to the opposite of that. I was pointing out the lack of relevant, objective testimony or data. Photos always help, but photos of small unimpressive grows that have been defoliated without a control to compare them with are pointless and tell us nothing.


and I'd like to point out that nobody has offered anything remotely resembling hard data to back up their beliefs.

If you're as experienced as you say then I expect that you'll agree with me that none of the grows we've seen photos of far show anything special. To me they all look like medium to low yields.


Well that's what I'm talking about, give us the benefits of that data and I'll sit up and pay attention.

Nobody has complained about the multitude of posts praising the technique by people who haven't even given it a try, but every time someone raises a doubt they are jumped on by the faithful for daring to point out the obvious.

You seem to think that by challenging some of the beliefs expressed on this thread I am somehow attacking the integrity of the posters. The basic fact of the matter is that subjective human judgement has consistently throughout history been shown to be deeply flawed and it's only through an objective review of hard data that we ever learn anything.

Until people start coming up with basic data like grammes per watt for defoliated and control groups, there is nothing to back up k33fters claims.


Though I find your argument the most compelling that I've read on the thread so far, as there is still an absence of compelling data anywhere on the thread, I'm going to pass on that.

If I changed my growing style every time I read somebodies unsubstantiated theories, I would probably never have kept my plants alive to flowering.

El Toker,

I certainly appreciate your concerns and desire for hard evidence, but again, this thread was more for those who do practice the technique to share their version and results, than to convince beginners. Certainly beginners have our experience to work from but the intention was as discussion between those with that experience.

It has been posted over and over by articulate and experienced growers that they developed their own implementation of defoliation over the years without direction from others. Likewise for myself. It was just obvious when faced with crowding or shading.

Most of us have seen leafy plants and aren't impressed. Most of us have grown them and know what the limits are. My hard evidence is that I have revisited leafy plants either by accident(leaving out of town too long) or just lazy. The results are less. As I have stated before numerous times, the top buds may be larger in a leafy plant but the quality in defoliated plants is more balanced, there are more buds and the thus yield is higher. I run from 25-50% higher defoliating. Even if I posted logs you would not be satisfied nor would I expect you to. It's the internet, don't believe everything you read. Personally I keep no logs. Not wise for a long career.

Between the major players in this thread I estimate about 100 years of collective experience. I have about a third of that. But again I am not twisting anyone's arm and the goal of the thread was to discuss the technique amongst the experienced and to share with others WANTING TO GAIN THAT EXPERIENCE.

If you need hard evidence for everything in life before experiencing it, I pity your sheltered soul. No one ever had to convince me snowboarding was fun for me to try it for the experience. Surfing, skateboarding,climbing, GROWING for pete's sake. Did you demand from your friends proof that you could grow your own weed in your house before you tried it. Lighten up friend...we are not twisting anyone's arm.

Thanks to d9 GMG LL and others who have politely and articulately responded to El Toker.

El T, We welcome your own side by side and participation. Take the devils advocate role, but report those results.

 

[mrdizzle]

I wouldn’t even waste a breath on this fool( El toker), if no one replies he might stop posting, he looking for hard factual data k33, he’s a fact checker, a proof finder, he wants control group, and doubled blind study, a placebo group, a sugar pill and a drooling dog. He can’t possibly try it for himself, he would never dare trying anything new until all the above criteria are met and proven without a doubt. He truly wants and yearns to hone his skills, but only with fact based techniques. We clearly cannot help him; it’s time for him to help himself

 

[YosemiteSam]

Design of experiment would solve this once and for all Who has Mini Tab on there computer?

 

[superbolan]

Those of us who tried it have already solved it, it works and i am definitely not going to run an experiment just to convince a naysayer. Even if someone has doubts what does it hurt to defoliate one plant and see for yourself. Thats what most did who were following this thread.
El toker is not a fool some are just more skeptical than others. Till recently i thought this was a ridiculous thing to do myself,, live an learn

 

[Think Green]

I cant believe they made this thread a sticky! Way to go k33ftr33z!


TG

 

[Knipple]

I cant believe they made this thread a sticky! Way to go k33ftr33z!


TG

Sticky! I din't know.. I think it deserves thwat position.. almost a thousand posts in 2 months!

Good work K33...

 

[LifeLess]

Theres always gonna be people that wanna agrue there point. I know it works and will always defoliate from now on.

Think Green i can believe they made this a sticky. Theres alot of great info here.

I switched the light on my next round of bloom on wednesday. 2-Apollolicious, 2- old school c99 that i cant wait to see after a good run of defoliation, and 3 chemd. Normally theres no way to fit more than 4-5 plants max in the room and thats pushing it. This run has 7 plants but there gonna be defoliated ill do another weekly pic thingy.

k33ftr33z again great thread.

 

[Natagonnaworrie]

yo - K33.

u came through and didn't missed my Q.

Can i get some info on the two top-most leaves in the pics i threw up?

My appreciated.

 

[buddin_904]

El Toker,

I certainly appreciate your concerns and desire for hard evidence, but again, this thread was more for those who do practice the technique to share their version and results, than to convince beginners. Certainly beginners have our experience to work from but the intention was as discussion between those with that experience.

It has been posted over and over by articulate and experienced growers that they developed their own implementation of defoliation over the years without direction from others. Likewise for myself. It was just obvious when faced with crowding or shading.

Most of us have seen leafy plants and aren't impressed. Most of us have grown them and know what the limits are. My hard evidence is that I have revisited leafy plants either by accident(leaving out of town too long) or just lazy. The results are less. As I have stated before numerous times, the top buds may be larger in a leafy plant but the quality in defoliated plants is more balanced, there are more buds and the thus yield is higher. I run from 25-50% higher defoliating. Even if I posted logs you would not be satisfied nor would I expect you to. It's the internet, don't believe everything you read. Personally I keep no logs. Not wise for a long career.

Between the major players in this thread I estimate about 100 years of collective experience. I have about a third of that. But again I am not twisting anyone's arm and the goal of the thread was to discuss the technique amongst the experienced and to share with others WANTING TO GAIN THAT EXPERIENCE.

If you need hard evidence for everything in life before experiencing it, I pity your sheltered soul. No one ever had to convince me snowboarding was fun for me to try it for the experience. Surfing, skateboarding,climbing, GROWING for pete's sake. Did you demand from your friends proof that you could grow your own weed in your house before you tried it. Lighten up friend...we are not twisting anyone's arm.

Thanks to d9 GMG LL and others who have politely and articulately responded to El Toker.

El T, We welcome your own side by side and participation. Take the devils advocate role, but report those results.

lol THANK YOU....can this be posted at the top of every page on this thread!?!!?!

 

[pearlemae]

It's been five days since the last pic's, and five days since the last leaf pinch.Day 20

 

[k33ftr33z]

ya, here is a shot of what i am currently doing now. its not a scrog but i remove anything that doesn't get me a top cola.

What you have going is lollipopping. You seem to be getting good results but this is not the technique described here. You can remove any leaves that are causing crowding to the remaining bud. My technique would preserve all the branches and budsites of these plants and maximaize the production of each and every plant. Lollipopping seeks to maximize production out of only the very top cluster. This is fine and I have seen impressive results and yield from other practitioners. I prefer to use fewer plants and not waste any productive growth. Each budsite takes time to develop in veg so my point is why remove them. Nevertheless, carry on and if you are transitioning techniques and layout keep posting result.

 

[k33ftr33z]

I wouldn’t even waste a breath on this fool( El toker), if no one replies he might stop posting, he looking for hard factual data k33, he’s a fact checker, a proof finder, he wants control group, and doubled blind study, a placebo group, a sugar pill and a drooling dog. He can’t possibly try it for himself, he would never dare trying anything new until all the above criteria are met and proven without a doubt. He truly wants and yearns to hone his skills, but only with fact based techniques. We clearly cannot help him; it’s time for him to help himself

I'll give El Toker just enough attention as his queries are basically polite and articulate, though riddled with internet/skeptic/passive-agressive/subtle-rage. I was amused that he finds the pics less than impressive yet has not posted any pic or statistic to blow us away.

Those who demand the 50ish blind studies should remind themselves how this kind of science has supplanted human experience and been co-opted by pharmaceutical and other industries to bring us all the drugs and poisons with safe labeling.

Universities live and breath by corporate money funding studies with intent for predetermined results designed to support deadly products and their marketing.

Human experience may be anecdotal but when there is trust, respect and familiarity between parties this kind of science is absolutely reliable and is what brought humans all of the collective knowledge before it was monopolized by today's hyper-factual bend-it-to-fit-your-needs science.

I'm a real fan of facts but not as a crutch. Experience rules.

 

[InducedSerenity]

Yeah, what i always do is wait really. let the plant fill out & most of the Screen, then remove the lower 1/3 to 1/2 of foliage & sucker branches(ones that will never make it to Canopy level)completely.(i do actually start taking leaf from the bottom around 2 weeks before the start of 12/12, slowly-like a small handfull each day!)
I mostly start removing leaves(the bulk of) after ive flipped to 12/12 & stop around 21 days into bloom. i always try to leave the upper 1/3rd of foliage alone, only taking a few problematic leaves, /ones shading other budsites out etc. & use the tucking tecnique also. heres a pic:

The bottom 1/2 of pretty much all foliage & suker branches completely removed on this Scrog! Leaving all the plants energy to concentrate where it matters. Minimising popcorn.

Scrogerman,

I appreciate the response! Yeah I think with my setup it'd be best to not do much defoliation until late veg or early flower. Thanks for the pic as well, as a new grower I always appreciate pics of good scrogs to see the training methods. Looks like you got some really good twisting in there!

Thanks to all for keeping this thread going and positive. It's been a great resource.

 

[pine boy]

I have two un-topped sativa's about 20" tall.I cut the fans off one today so I will be able to see a differance between the two shortly.They were very similar, cut from the same mom and flowered together.I will get some pics when there is something worth looking at.

I have some really bushy,leafy girls going now and I cut a ton of fans.I dont normally trim,just tuck em back.I'm happy with whats going on here.

 

[growingforfun]

im going to be trying this out with my sour bubble. im hoping that it will really help this strain out since its leafs are so large they would normaly block out nearly all light to the lower 3/4 of the plant. may even make this a normal yeilding strain this way =)

 

[Natagonnaworrie]

What you have going is lollipopping. You seem to be getting good results but this is not the technique described here. You can remove any leaves that are causing crowding to the remaining bud. My technique would preserve all the branches and budsites of these plants and maximaize the production of each and every plant. Lollipopping seeks to maximize production out of only the very top cluster. This is fine and I have seen impressive results and yield from other practitioners. I prefer to use fewer plants and not waste any productive growth. Each budsite takes time to develop in veg so my point is why remove them. Nevertheless, carry on and if you are transitioning techniques and layout keep posting result.

I think there is a misunderstanding. I am referring to my pics on page 64. I understand that it must be hard being the OP and responding to so many questions all the time. Seriously, you should get paid.... hence my book/writer comment earlier.

let me go quote them so you don't have to go hunting...

I was serious about going to try it out now.

Madness 2 clones, same mom. Even showed roots on the same day.


Madness 'Defol'

Madness 'Reg'



BananaGum


BananaGum 'Defol'

BananaGum 'Reg'


I guess you can call today day 1. In about 90 days i will know for sure. Will you?

One last thing... the condensation on the leaves from where they rested on each other definitely can be the beginning of some problems. I am happy to avoid it if possible.


If i'm doing the defol wrong someone let me know.

the pic on the last page if just how i work now... not the defol. I understand that my current method is not your method of defoliation. what i am trying to do is test ur theory from start to finish with the pics of the little ones.

this is how my plants are today. not the defol.

ya, here is a shot of what i am currently doing now. its not a scrog but i remove anything that doesn't get me a top cola.

if you could just answer for me, In the defoliation pics of the Madness and BananaGum, the little babies in the cups... What would you do with the top most leaves?

thanks !

 

[TanzanianMagic]

The way I think it works, is that when shade leaves shade buds below it, the lower buds produce more leaves to compensate the lack of light.

Most of the THC containing glands are on the calyxes, not the leaves, and what you are encouraging is more calyx growth, not leaf growth. The small leaves on the buds have more than enough photosynthesis capacity to power bud growth.

Also, you very quickly reduce the need for nitrogen (N) and can dedicate more energy and time in the plant taking up P and K, growing calyxes.

And, the bud only structure reduces the time you need to flush nitrogen, reduces need for trimming.

If you are shy about using this technique, just trim the big leaves from the top bud, and watch the difference.

 

[delta9nxs]

hey, everybody! here's a few shot's of an "unimpressive" plant. this was grown in the "i don't know why anyone growing vertical would even try this" style.

defoliated totally at 21 days flower.

the plants been whacked and is in a 5 gal bucket of water for the night.

wet trimmed bud

dry bud in container. notice the container has a 2.5 gal capacity.

it has been dried to the point where large bud stems snap.

it weighs 418 grams or 14.74 oz's

now i realize that this is not proof of anything. i could be lying.

this is really complicating my life, now i have to get help carrying all this extra weight around.

the last 3 plants were 11.96, 12.45, and now 14.74 oz's totalling 39.15 oz's or averaging 13.05 each. all defoliated. the three largest plants i've ever grown.

ya'll have a good 'un,