Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique?

[k33ftr33z]

this is true, i see very few even coming close to what op is doing.

i would like to add that if i were growing horizontal with height limitations i'd be trying it right now. this is the most common situation most indoor growers face.

i'm not proselytizing my vert set up as superior because i know it isn't. my spirit in this venture is to show that defoliation is a valid technique almost any way you grow.

also, i strongly recommend new growers get a few successful crops in before messing with this. solve your other problems first.

I'm liking your results, too, d9. I wish I had just a tad more headroom. Indeed, defoliation can be worked into anyone's regimen and see positive results.

 

[k33ftr33z]

I'm not sure what all these photographs are supposed to demonstrate. I don't see any of the plants having an impressive amount of bud on them. Unless someone is doing a side by side comparison with non-defoliated plants, they really don't add anything at all to the discussion. It just makes a very long thread even harder to read, because we have pages of pointless photos.

Defoliation doesn't show up well in photographs, but the results sure do. Here's what you do...take a 32"x32"x32" beautifully leafy finishing specimen and defoliate it completely. Now compare it to my examples of that same size. What you will see is a dearth of budsite on the naked, previously leafy finisher and likely some very underdeveloped lower bud if it wasn't removed by lollipopping.

That is your side by side. I have seen results from both methods and I like defoliating. No one is twisting your arm. This is a discussion for those who are employing this technique. The discussion is not intended to convince anyone of it's effectiveness. Obviously your curiosity is piqued so what is to lose giving it a try on a little veg starter. The results are dramatic at that stage. There si no way anyone of us doing it can prove it to someone who insists on some kind of proof other than our own delight with the results. Several have posted of positive effect on yield and quality. You can see it in the pics. What does LifeLess or d9 have to gain by posting their results than to be proud of some beautiful plants. You can see it for yourself in the pics and in yOur own grow if you are willing to risk learning something new.

 

[DevilWeed]

Figured I should jump in and share my experiences with de-leafing thus far. I was lucky in that the thread started just after I planted a set of clones. This thread convinced me to go with 6 plants under a 4' x 4' SCROG instead of 8 or 12.

I started pulling leaves when they were about 8"...maybe a little late but that's when I really caught on to this. Through veg I yanked leaves, bent, broke and LST-abused my plants to the max of my comfort level. I couldn't bring myself to take it as far as k33ftr33z but I still reaped some rewards. I was stunned by the growth as were my growing buddies. They are now two weeks into flower...you can see some pics here: 2kw Alternating Mod-Scrogs!

I didn't take a lot of pics during veg, but I'll find what I have and post them up when I have a chance. I'll be running these Scrogs for a while on an alternating schedule so I may try a side by side in the near future.

Huge thanks to you for taking the time to build this thread k33ftr33z!!

EDIT: I know my plants are leafy as hell right now. I'm a lazy stoner, what can I say!

 

[El Toker]

Defoliation doesn't show up well in photographs, but the results sure do.

I don't accept that. The photographs I've seen don't appear to have any more bud on them than I would expect to see on any flowering cannabis plant. All the photos I've seen so far have been unremarkable.

Here's what you do...take a 32"x32"x32" beautifully leafy finishing specimen and defoliate it completely. Now compare it to my examples of that same size. What you will see is a dearth of budsite on the naked, previously leafy finisher and likely some very underdeveloped lower bud if it wasn't removed by lollipopping.

My comment was that it's just a shame that none of these people defoliating their plants are doing that.

No one is twisting your arm. This is a discussion for those who are employing this technique.

Really, I thought it was a discussion for anyone who is interested in the concept. I didn't realise that it was only for true believers. Is it OK for me to reply as you've addressed me directly?

The discussion is not intended to convince anyone of it's effectiveness.

All of your posts are.

Obviously your curiosity is piqued so what is to lose giving it a try on a little veg starter.

For two reasons, I'm not at the right stage in a grow and I'm not convinced at all by what you've got to say.

There si no way anyone of us doing it can prove it to someone who insists on some kind of proof other than our own delight with the results.

Yes there is, an objective side by side comparison with measurment of the amount of bud produced in a control group and a defoliated group. Without this bare minimum of data all of this is just pure speculation.

Several have posted of positive effect on yield and quality. You can see it in the pics.

I've looked at the pics and I just see regular plants, with bud significantly smaller than I've got on my own plants at the moment.

What does LifeLess or d9 have to gain by posting their results than to be proud of some beautiful plants.

You need to ask them that. I have no idea. My best guess is that they genuinely believe what they are saying. The fact is that there's little difference in the enthusiasm about results between the people who are following your suggestion and the people who are doing the whole thing completely wrong. There are at least some growers on this thread who have fooled themselves, you have acknowledged that. The only question is how many people are fooling themselves.

You can see it for yourself in the pics and in yOur own grow if you are willing to risk learning something new.

I'm always willing to learn something new, but that's not the same as, in fact it's dangerously different to, believing everything I'm told without questioning it. Frankly, you don't show much willingness to "risk learning something new" either.

I prefer to harvest my plants by initially stripping away all the foliage before I cut the stem. I'm sure I'm not the first grower to trim away all the fan leaves and to notice that it looked like there was a lot more bud after the foliage was removed. Anyone who doubts me should give it a try, there's absolutely zero risk. I've seen nothing on this thread to make me believe that there's anything more going on here than an "optical illusion" convincing some people that they're getting better results than they actually are.

 

[delta9nxs]

el toker, is the glass half full or half empty?

 

[El Toker]

el toker, is the glass half full or half empty?

I don't care, I'm more interested in the actual quantity that it contains.

 

[SmilinBob]

I don't care, I'm more interested in the actual quantity that it contains.

Do a side by side and prove the method wrong.. Until you do that, you are guilty of the same thing you are accusing of.

I believe there is a word for this..

 

[El Toker]

Do a side by side and prove the method wrong.. Until you do that, you are guilty of the same thing you are accusing of.

If I made a silly claim and then didn't produce a shred of evidence to back it up, then I would be doing the same thing.

I can think of a lot of things that I could use a controlled trial to test out, should I decide to do that on the basis of what I've seen so far K33fters technique comes a long way down that list, right at the bottom, .

 

[SmilinBob]

Claiming that something doesn't work without producing a shred of evidence is the same thing.

If it's really not that important to begin with, you must have to much time on your hands.

Defoliation in veg works to promote new growth. I've done it on many plants over many years in my outdoor gardens. Even on plants that aren't MJ. Pepper plants seem to love being plucked, they explode with new growth.

But wait.. I got no evidence. So I'm totally wrong.

 

[El Toker]

Claiming that something doesn't work without producing a shred of evidence is the same thing.

You've got this the wrong way round. I'm not claiming anything, I'm challenging the claims that k33fter has made.

If it's really not that important to begin with, you must have to much time on your hands.

I thought this was a forum were people exchanged opinions and ideas? Does everyone who posts on here have too much time on their hands? Or is it just the ones that you don't agree with?

Defoliation in veg works to promote new growth. I've done it on many plants over many years in my outdoor gardens. Even on plants that aren't MJ. Pepper plants seem to love being plucked, they explode with new growth. But wait.. I got no evidence. So I'm totally wrong.

As you've got no idea how they would have grown had you not defoliated, there's nothing to indicate that you're right. You just believe that you're right like k33fter. Perhaps this thread should be in the spirituality forum as it based so heavily on faith.

 

[dubdi3mond]

As you've got no idea how they would have grown had you not defoliated, there's nothing to indicate that you're right.

he never said he hadnt grown his pepper plants out with out a defoliation so you would be assuming. take your troll ass somewhere else or give it a try on one of your plants

no one is gonna hold your cock for you while you piss, you gotta teach yourself that so go experiment, if anyone needs to prove anything then prove to us that this doesnt work.

 

[SmilinBob]

Maybe it works so well that no one wants to provide evidence because then everyone will want a piece.

Who cares really.. You grow the way you want, he does it the way he wants.

What would be his motive to lie to everyone? Shits and giggles?

I don't know, or really care, if defoliated buds are fatter, or whatever this thread says, but I know, in veg, if you pluck leaf the plant responds more rapid growth.

I haven't done a side by side comparison, but when I first started I didn't do this. I got a tip from a friend on mine. Next season I done what he said, and the result was bigger, faster plants, that produced more, simply because it had more sites to produce from.

--Edit

Just read your post.. Yes.. It's faith. I obviously can't tell when my plants are doing better than before..

 

[Scrogerman]

defoliation has its place for sure, but the idea that completely stripping a plant of its leaves will yield more Bud is missleading imo. in ScrOG its an essential part of the process, especially the lower 1/3rd to 1/2 of the plant. Upper leaves i remove if they become problematic & shade out other budsites. I employ defoliation & tucking to bring light to my Budsites, not just defoliation. Take a Fan Leaf away from a branch before its reached the length/height you want & watch what happens, it will stop growing in length completely, this puts me off the Op's tec completely. Im not saying it doesnt work, its interesting for sure. I remove leaves from around weeks 2-4 of Veg right up untill week 3+ of Bloom, clearing the bottom 1/3rd+ completely. for me defoliating has its place like i said, but untill i see proof that yield increases are observed im gonna stay skepticle of the Tec, mainly because i always defoliate in ScrOG but see nothing but impeded Budgrowth from doing so, timing is criticle.(never done it from day 1 till the end)
Interesting thread & ill wait till i see a side by side before i do anything like the OP sugests! Its gotta be strain specific too. Good luck leaf Pluckers!

 

[Knipple]

Hello toker.. just a thought...

Everyone has the ability to read this whole thread if they wish.
They should, if they want to attempt this, the author is very clear.

This thread has been going for 2 months...
many have said they see improvement in lower bud production/maturation.
I do not think they are BSing us.

Why not wait until some one crys 'foul;! before all the negativity?
Because it isn't 'mainstream' thinkng doesn't automatically make it wrong.

I'm thinking you're looking for the 'chicken and the road' answer,
black or white, you're wasting time there, IMO.

I, like many here, grow in smaller places and if this is going to help:
reduce humidity and mold, while also reducing imature (popcorn) buddage... I'm going to give it a go..

I will admit though, that the 2 Hawiian Snow clones I been beating up on look horrible!
That is, they do not look like what I'm used to seeing. On the other hand, they are grwoing at a similar rate the mom grew at.

If this is total BS (I do not feel it is) I'll be back to 'rant'..

 

[delta9nxs]

El toker,

so far in this thread we have heard from quite a few experienced growers with years of trial and error under their belts. And, I might add, quite a bit of credibility.

I personally have ten years plus of continuous growing. I don't mean a grow here and a grow there type of experience. Mine is ten years around the clock 24/7. no breaks. The last seven years my main plant from a single cutting using no mothers. Plant after plant. Carbon copies.

I was very ill during this time and trapped at home. When I wasn't tending plants I was reading about plants. Also around the clock. Growing and learning about growing I considered to be my main occupation..

I keep careful records of changes and yields.

I know when i'm doing better or worse. As i'm running a perpetual harvest scheme, one in and one out every week, I see changes in my plants very fast. Within weeks.

I'm not an unusual case here.

There are many reporting here that have a lot more experience than me. These are intelligent folks who know what they are doing.

What you are suggesting is that all of the people defoliating are delusional. Although that doesn't really bother me so much I would like to point out, again, that the people reporting success are the ones actually doing it.

The only way for you to be personally satisfied as to the efficacy of this technique is to try it yourself. You're right, no amount of testimony or photos can be regarded as proof here. So you must experience it.

How many Californians does it take to screw in a light bulb? Seven, one to hold the bulb and six to experience it.

“Have you ever been experienced? Well, I have!” James Marshall Hendrix, 1942-1970

there is no substitute for the real thing, take the pepsi challenge.

d9

 

[Avid Fan]

in haste while waiting for money for seeds for a vertical grow,i popped some bagseed.
now ive got moolah,i was at a loss as what to do with germinated seeds,till i read this.

i think i'll do a side by side defoliation to truly judge the benefits,with either a 250 or 400 hps.
my friends dont believe this will work,so it would be good to prove them wrong.
many thanks for this

 

[El Toker]

You're right, no amount of testimony or photos can be regarded as proof here. So you must experience it.

I never said that, in fact what I said was close to the opposite of that. I was pointing out the lack of relevant, objective testimony or data. Photos always help, but photos of small unimpressive grows that have been defoliated without a control to compare them with are pointless and tell us nothing.

I would like to point out, again, that the people reporting success are the ones actually doing it.

and I'd like to point out that nobody has offered anything remotely resembling hard data to back up their beliefs.

If you're as experienced as you say then I expect that you'll agree with me that none of the grows we've seen photos of far show anything special. To me they all look like medium to low yields.

I keep careful records of changes and yields.

Well that's what I'm talking about, give us the benefits of that data and I'll sit up and pay attention.

Nobody has complained about the multitude of posts praising the technique by people who haven't even given it a try, but every time someone raises a doubt they are jumped on by the faithful for daring to point out the obvious.

You seem to think that by challenging some of the beliefs expressed on this thread I am somehow attacking the integrity of the posters. The basic fact of the matter is that subjective human judgement has consistently throughout history been shown to be deeply flawed and it's only through an objective review of hard data that we ever learn anything.

Until people start coming up with basic data like grammes per watt for defoliated and control groups, there is nothing to back up k33fters claims.

there is no substitute for the real thing, take the pepsi challenge.

Though I find your argument the most compelling that I've read on the thread so far, as there is still an absence of compelling data anywhere on the thread, I'm going to pass on that.

If I changed my growing style every time I read somebodies unsubstantiated theories, I would probably never have kept my plants alive to flowering.

 

[*mistress*]

basic/advanced techs....teehee

basic/advanced techs....teehee

also, i strongly recommend new growers get a few successful crops in before messing with this. solve your other problems first.

thinning, pruning & training are not new techniques....
used extensively in every field of crop producsion...

w/ tomatoes, sucker shoots culled.

some cultivars grow extensive leaves, some dont. in earlier posts, this technique is mainly for gardners that have gr0en same cultivar over/over/over & familiar w/ growth/flowering traits.... from that point, can take blades of leaves, take only 2-3 leaves per branch, etc...

or....
just use 1 branch of a pl@nt as an experiment to see if works in your garden....

simple to 'de-foliate' 1 branch, or even 1 shoot from a branch to compare to other branches....

making trees, thinning/supporting/training/pruning - for trees - makes for over-all healthier, more-final-fruit plants.... non-pruned plants seem just require more trimming @ end & >developed lower fruit....

on every pl@nt, is apical dominance & terminal flowers.... the tech generally desires to maximize use of plant matter & discard un-needed plant mater - for efficiency... while fan leaves transport water out of plant, they maybe re-develop after being culled.
or..., just take 1-2 blades off ea leaf...

or.....
just dont do it!



https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=147197

 

[Scrogerman]

I think thats Fantastic Advice *M* & i use a similar tecnique somtimes myself!

 

[El Toker]

very simple procedure to 'de-foliate' 1 branch, or even 1 shoot from a branch to compare to other branches....

The problem with that is that if there's a reaction by the plant to the pruning (beneficial or harmful) that effect could be felt on the un-pruned leaves as well. A couple of possible mechanisms for this would include auxins and different rates of transpiration and water uptake from the roots. It makes more sense to use small clones grown side by side.

However, that said I do agree 100% that an advanced grow forum with people's experiments being subjected to rigorous review would be a great idea.

In many ways this thread is the exact opposite of that. We have had theory, praise of theory, and dismissal of anyone questioning the theory. A perfect formula for producing shit science and useless conclusions.