:D Genetic Preservation :D - Breeding

[VerdantGreen]

everyone has made some very substantial points
agree totally
collective goals personal goals all mutually beneficial to the plant.
Just picked up a pdf of that book im gonna spend some time on it and try to expand my understanding past Mendels pea experiments

thx for sharing that VG



https://gtu. ge/Agro-Lib/Principles%20of%20Plant%20Genetics%20and%20Breeding.pdf

Thanks for the kind words... and great find on the PDF !


the other book i would recommend, is more about population genetics, which, as GMT says, is a relevant topic when discussing landrace preservation...

Allard - Principles of plant breeding (2nd edition. is the one that concentrates on population genetics)
Its an even more expensive book lol more like $200 (i ordered it from the UK national library and then photocopied all the pages )


VG

 

[zif]

Let's see if I can win El Timbo over.
Within any closed population, in nature, the rate of genetic drift that occurs is due not to population numbers, but due to mutation rates within the line. Let's look at sharks, alligators/crocodiles, and the like. They are almost unchanged in 10's of millions of years. They also don't suffer from cancer. Cancer is caused by a mutation in a cell. Now this change occurs during mitosis rather than meiosis, which is where most new genes are created. However the mutation rate is inheritable. Other animals with higher mutation rates, such as dogs, will change very quickly. They also have quite high levels of cancer.
Therefore genetic drift can also be referred to as evolution or mutation in the majority of cases.
If you do what Darwin did, and visit closed populations in nature, the rate of evolution depends not on population numbers, but mutation rates of the species there.
So when we move our attention to fungi, we can look at mushrooms which are older than any animal, they appear unchanged in form, however each mushroom puts out roots with differing DNA at each root tip (Paul stamets) in order to find the most useful for the next mushroom. But the mushroom doesn't change its basic form. They have mastered the concept of evolution without changing their basic form.
So let's look at plants. In any population, you have a base starting position, you get the advantageous mutation, and it spreads throughout the population. After some time passes, that advantageous mutation is passed to all offspring. Now that gene is everywhere. Is that bad? Did nature do a bad thing by failing to preserve the old gene? The point is, an advantageous gene, eventually spreads throughout the whole population. No individuals posses the older gene. So when people talk about preservation, they are assuming that different examples within the population hold different genes. But they don't. Genes pass through closed groups and every member of that group hold the same genes.
You only get different genes within any population, when you have travel between communities.
As people we see this in our own populations, and so assume it is the case with all populations. It isn't.
If you find a particular landrace there will not be any individual left over time, that doesn't share the same genes as every other member of that landrace, unless its a mitosis induced mutation, which is normally a bad thing. That individual wouldn't represent the majority anyway. The big difference in DNA content, isn't in the individual gene differences, but in the gene ratios.
As meiosis occurs, if the mother has 5 copies of one gene, then one offspring may inherit 1 copy and the next 4 copies or 2 and 3 or whatever. The same will happen from the father. So offspring will in theory have between 0 and 10 copies of that gene. This is where genetic differences are found. Not in gene differences, but in gene copy frequencies.
So preservation will be the act of generating a line with an average number of copies of all genes. This requires careful selection of parents, or large numbers of parents. Either will achieve the same goal. Only poor selection will alter the averages and generate genetic drift. Not due to losing genes, but reducing their frequency.
This is why one to one mating can both preserve a line, and create genetic drift in a line depending on selections. However, in most cases, future selections can reverse the direction of any drift occurring. If that's what is desired. Or it can exaggerate that drift. But to think that unless you start with 2000 plants, you are losing genes, I feel, misses the point of how closed populations evolve and survive.
In short, the ability to preserve, depends on the mutation rates of the line, rather than the numbers in the line. The higher the rate of mutation, the larger the base numbers would need to be. But to think they need to be in the thousands is buying into the sophestry that protects the big players in the industry.

This is a radically idiosyncratic view of genetic drift. You may be right about mutation rates being (an edge case) factor to consider, but genetic drift *as it’s usually defined* absolutely is about existing alleles, and absolutely is affected by population numbers.

Consider this textbook definition: Genetic drift is the change in the frequency of an existing gene variant in a population due to random sampling of organisms. The alleles in the offspring are a sample of those in the parents, and chance has a role in determining whether a given individual survives and reproduces.

 

[Ganja 13]

You guys are making me feel like a pollen chucker

 

[romanoweed]

I think that statement of higher mutations is a good counterargument against holding big populatios. And even i dont understand the full meaning, i write it in my Notepad.

However, we then see ourselve in a conflict incase inbreeding depro is a thing. Namely The Conflict between mutations and inbreeding depro.

Further: if i understand it there is no real existent/ or unexistent genes in a Plant, but they are uniquely displayed in an unique arrangement in each Geographical Locations Landrace (say Thailand is different to Afghanistan).
That would still mean the same to an extent, meaning that by keeping a high numbers of a Landrace i keep higher amount of unique arrangements of Genes. Is that right? (i mean based on that a Landrace is as variable as a Landrace normally is )

Further I dont wanna claim how big Landrace Populations are, or how much influence comes from close by Locations with a different Genetic, but the Info i found told that they do so. It told that most Landraces expressed in a Way, like a Race would, when coming from slightly different Regions.
But they are also not compleetly wide Genetics, the explonation therefore was that especially the most loved Landraces are often selfpollinating ones (males and females on one Plant). Therefore its to assume Landraces dont contain to much Genetics from surroundings Regions.

Thats acording this book i already told. So it sounds like Landraces are somewhere in a Balance between far related Genes and close related Genes. Hence my Bellcurve illustration.

I also heard often the from someone travelling Thai in the 70s villages that whole village grew it , literally like a Wineregions today, no difference. I also heard couple times that often the Tribes grew that killer weed.

So whether it are different Genes influencing each gardens genetics, or it is somethign other, in the end i think its possible, that a certain size of population were the reciept for a Landrace. And landrace are the strongest weed I ever smoked. Absolutely insane it was. Like mastered nearly to perfection (that smoke i got)
And Thaiweed or any other good Landrace is breed, not a wild plant taken from Nature, then left in a Garden, no, it is breed.(incase some dont know)

 

[GMT]

This is a radically idiosyncratic view of genetic drift. You may be right about mutation rates being (an edge case) factor to consider, but genetic drift *as it’s usually defined* absolutely is about existing alleles, and absolutely is affected by population numbers.

Consider this textbook definition: Genetic drift is the change in the frequency of an existing gene variant in a population due to random sampling of organisms. The alleles in the offspring are a sample of those in the parents, and chance has a role in determining whether a given individual survives and reproduces.

Gene variants are the results of mutations. Whether they were created in the current generation or a previous generation is irrelevant, their origin of existence is identical. Its not just future mutations. Over time, any mutation that creates an advantage, will be passed to the whole population. Any causing a disadvantage will be lost in nature. Therefore, please don't assume that large numbers will prevent genetic drift. It occurs in nature just as it does in a closet. Only lower numbers reduces genetic drift due to fewer mutations occurring within the population.

Galileo was also idiosyncratic when he pointed out the sun does not revolve around the world. It may make a view point out of step with the current understanding, but it doesn't mean someone is wrong.

 

[zif]

Gene variants are the results of mutations. Whether they were created in the current generation or a previous generation is irrelevant, their origin of existence is identical. Its not just future mutations. Over time, any mutation that creates an advantage, will be passed to the whole population. Any causing a disadvantage will be lost in nature. Therefore, please don't assume that large numbers will prevent genetic drift. It occurs in nature just as it does in a closet. Only lower numbers reduces genetic drift due to fewer mutations occurring within the population.

Galileo was also idiosyncratic when he pointed out the sun does not revolve around the world. It may make a view point out of step with the current understanding, but it doesn't mean someone is wrong.

I fear your misunderstanding of genetic drift has led you to an erroneous conclusion.

Across roughly 40,000 genes composed of roughly 800million base pairs, Cannabis plants average 23 SNVs and 18 indels per generation of sexual reproduction. Every single gene is subject to genetic drift in a population, but a vanishingly tiny fraction of a percent of those genes will be affected by spontaneous mutation during reproduction.

By ignoring the actual mechanics of drift, you’re emphasizing a quantitatively less important process.

It’s true, you’ll see fewer mutations with fewer plants. It’s not true that you’ll see less genetic drift. Drift results from the random loss of extant alleles under no selection that small populations unavoidably suffer.

 

[TheDarkStorm]

Wen you go into a field ov ganga full of thousands of plants and see this for yourself....you will see that although they are all related within that plantation there are many many unique types....im sure if you look hard enough you can find ones that are singularly unique......so back to what this thread is about "genetic preservation"....can you by taking 10 females from that field and 10 males preserve all those unique traits be they good or bad with in that field....or is 1000 females and 1000 males completely open polinated going to give you a better chance at doing that.
I dont think cannabis landraces are like the majority of food croops we have today.

 

[romanoweed]

further Thoughts in Depth

Ok, i probably wasnt saying the Truth mentioning a Thai has some Genes absolutely nonpresent, but others present. Those are my Thoughts from what i gathered , nothing else.

But what i said in last Post with my Graphs can easily make Sense.
Just when i say there are some Genes not Present in Thai, you can exchane it to some Genotypes are not present in Thai. And the more different a Climate is to Thailand, the more different will a Genotype be (like droughtresistent Genotype only exist in Deserts)

So, yeah, the message stays the same and there will be a more northern Genotype coming from the Hill nearby, and there will be a more tropical Genotype coming from the southern Scape nearby. All influencing that very seed you collect in Thailand.

Now you can say, i most likely only got Seeds from only ONE Plant, so therefore yes, my Genotype is only one.

But that doesent mean that i have to keep it one Genotype. We all know that Landscape shapes Genotypes. And even what we have is just one Genotype, those ex-genotypes will all express in our Phenotypes.


selecting thowards those Phenotypes we can divide the northern from the southern Phenotypes by selecting thowards it, each on its own untill we did it for multiple Generations. By then could call each different selection a genotype again.

Actually i have thought a long Time, if i should pollinate each of my Phenotypes all in one single pollination , or not.

I try to illustrate how strong this crosspollination probably was by looking at Thailand again.

This is a Picture of Thailand, lets imagine how frequent a Pollen would travel from Location 1 (green) toNorthern Location 2 (bright green), and southern Location (yellow).
Well, just imagine the People in the good old times (this pic is from 2020 by the way). Back then many People were Farmers, growing food in your Garden was more or less the Norm.
Like mentioned, someone visiting Thailand in 70s saw it growing literally like Wineyards, but it was also in Gardens, Cannabis everywhere. He also said that he only found such Ganjaloving Villages little bit offtrack.

Ok , now that we have a vague Mausrement how often there were Cannabisplants were grown (like said its all vague this Pic doesent represent actual Distances, but it helps imagination), i would just make this simple Calculation:
The northern Locations Male will fertilize 1/5 of a Female standing 100 meter away (meters equals yards). It will fertilize 1/10 of a Female 200 Meters away. The resting Part will all be dusted by the more close by males of each Female, sure.

But we concentrate on how much a Genetic will travel each Year.

You already see the Pattern: the further away a Plant to your Plant , the fewer Pollen of this slightly different Genotype will arise. That simple.

Same goes for Seedechange in the Community.
I think, exchanging seeds was the norm. I mean, when you visit your Relatives, what you bring? You bring wine, even today. Its imaginable Thai People echanged Seeds, it provided security of crop, its nearly like a obligation to bring Wine.. hahah. Tradition.

So we calculate each Year a handfull of Seeds will be brought 1 Km/mile to the next village.

Thats it. Shure there are occasional further travels, but i try to imagine a representative Amount.

What i wanna say with it, is just that yes, each Location will get not much pollen from 100 meter away, but a bit, even less pollen from 200 meters away, but a bit, even fewer Pollen from a Km away, but a bit.

And that bit might be what is just enough to battle the amount of possibly inbreeding depression lingering each generation.

Also that could mean, that if we now perform my Methology to keep a wide range of phenotypes, that we probably shouldnt fully crosspolinate them phenos,
no, we isolate them from each other, but pollinate a fraction of each of those separated Phenos under themselve.

The most often we do that with similar Phenos, the less often with less similar phenos, the least often with the least similar phenos.

yeah and we even we introduced the phenos from other phenos, each selection is always performed thowards what we selected for from the Start.

namely, southern Pheno gets a preese pollen from northern pheno, but we keep selecting the Offspring sprinkled by a breeze ofnorthern Pheno thowards southern pheno.

We simply try to mimicking that Thai Landrace scenario. Peace all ,

might been the last chapter i wrote, now i think you got what i mean. (i mean, i just need a cigarette for now)

 

[romanoweed]

Here a final Illustration what Amount of Pollen goes out from a Location to another (wich Amont of Pollen to apply from One of your Phenos onto another)

 

[romanoweed]

I think i have to explain anothe Thing.
I once was searching on google for Snail defence.

Could not find one that sounded like the winner method. Anyway, then someone asked, why are Snails actually so hot on out ALL our Vegetables but nothing else

Someone anwsered with a guess, he said: "its probably cause our Vegetables are breed, and not wild"

And it was literally an Eye Opener. Even i dont know if thats the Truth, i realised how strong Nature can change things.

With strong i mean, how strict nature decides what has to live and what not

For us Humans we thik there is no difference if that vegetable has to live or not, but for Nature, for the Snails its like Day and Night. Our breed Salades taste like Hamburger and Pizza to them, its their Food.

I want to say with it, that even close by Locations could have so much influence on a Plant you never thought. Therefore shaping different Genotype.

Same goes for Soil, for us soil is uneatable, we have no interess, for a Plant the Type of soil is like Hamburger versus boring Soup.
An individual having to eat boring Soup will not look happy, will be culled. There comes the Genotype.

 

[Ganja 13]

Here a final Illustration what Amount of Pollen goes out from a Location to another (wich Amont of Pollen to apply from One of your Phenos onto another)

View Image

What about insects carrying the pollen ?

 

[romanoweed]

haha, i dont know if you wanna provoke me geeking out on it.

All i tried is to make a Calculation, wich roundabout demonstates what we could try to imitate .

 

[GMT]

I fear your misunderstanding of genetic drift has led you to an erroneous conclusion.

Across roughly 40,000 genes composed of roughly 800million base pairs, Cannabis plants average 23 SNVs and 18 indels per generation of sexual reproduction. Every single gene is subject to genetic drift in a population, but a vanishingly tiny fraction of a percent of those genes will be affected by spontaneous mutation during reproduction.

By ignoring the actual mechanics of drift, you’re emphasizing a quantitatively less important process.

It’s true, you’ll see fewer mutations with fewer plants. It’s not true that you’ll see less genetic drift. Drift results from the random loss of extant alleles under no selection that small populations unavoidably suffer.

Fear not, there is no misunderstanding here. You may have missed something in my posts.
I specifically said that any one offspring will contain more or less of a particular gene. Its unlikely that you will completely lose genes.
You say that all genes are at equal risk, that is not accurate. I'm not trying to do anything with this question, other than perhaps jog your memory here, but are you aware of the difference between newer and older genes? Specifically their location in the genome? Or the frequency of mutations compared with their location? Are you aware of how everything is related? How evolution actually works?
In cannabis, the vast majority of new genes are located in the male sex chromosome. If these are successful, they slowly get moved into the small region of the sex chromosome that does get mixed with the female sex chromosome. If they are still successful, they not only get passed throughout the whole population, but over time, they slowly move down into other chromosomes. The oldest genes, can be found in all plants. Not just cannabis, and not a single location geographically, and do not vary from one plant to the next. Most genes are fixed. They are stable and will always be passed on. These genes are not involved in any form of drift. In fact the genes that are susceptible to drift, are very few. These are all, evolutionarily very new genes. As they are passed through the chromosome, the location of these genes will vary from one plant to the next. Sometimes, as the locations are different, at the point of meiosis, both copies are passed onto the offspring. If this gives those plants an advantage, the plants with two copies reproduce more than others. Over time, the whole population gains two copies and so on. The addition of new genes is evolution. The frequency of those genes is drift.

 

[acespicoli]

Fear not, there is no misunderstanding here. You may have missed something in my posts.
I specifically said that any one offspring will contain more or less of a particular gene. Its unlikely that you will completely lose genes.
You say that all genes are at equal risk, that is not accurate. I'm not trying to do anything with this question, other than perhaps jog your memory here, but are you aware of the difference between newer and older genes? Specifically their location in the genome? Or the frequency of mutations compared with their location? Are you aware of how everything is related? How evolution actually works?
In cannabis, the vast majority of new genes are located in the male sex chromosome. If these are successful, they slowly get moved into the small region of the sex chromosome that does get mixed with the female sex chromosome. If they are still successful, they not only get passed throughout the whole population, but over time, they slowly move down into other chromosomes. The oldest genes, can be found in all plants. Not just cannabis, and not a single location geographically, and do not vary from one plant to the next. Most genes are fixed. They are stable and will always be passed on. These genes are not involved in any form of drift. In fact the genes that are susceptible to drift, are very few. These are all, evolutionarily very new genes. As they are passed through the chromosome, the location of these genes will vary from one plant to the next. Sometimes, as the locations are different, at the point of meiosis, both copies are passed onto the offspring. If this gives those plants an advantage, the plants with two copies reproduce more than others. Over time, the whole population gains two copies and so on. The addition of new genes is evolution. The frequency of those genes is drift.

The Genetic Structure of Marijuana and Hemp
https://journals.plos. org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0133292


In genetics, a locus (plural loci) is a specific, fixed position on a chromosome where a particular gene or genetic marker is located.Each chromosome carries many genes, with each gene occupying a different position or locus; in humans, the total number of protein-coding genes in a complete haploid set of 23 chromosomes is estimated at 19,000–20,000. Genes may possess multiple variants known as alleles, and an allele may also be said to reside at a particular locus. Diploid and polyploid cells whose chromosomes have the same allele at a given locus are called homozygous with respect to that locus, while those that have different alleles at a given locus are called heterozygous . The ordered list of loci known for a particular genome is called a gene map. Gene mapping is the process of determining the specific locus or loci responsible for producing a particular phenotype or biological trait.

Statistical genetic considerations for maintaining germ plasm collections
J Crossa 1 , C M Hernandez, P Bretting, S A Eberhart, S Taba
Affiliations

Abstract

One objective of the regeneration of genetic populations is to maintain at least one copy of each allele present in the original population. Genetic diversity within populations depends on the number and frequency of alleles across all loci. The objectives of this study on outbreeding crops are: (1) to use probability models to determine optimal sample sizes for the regeneration for a number of alleles at independent loci; and (2) to examine theoretical considerations in choosing core subsets of a collection. If we assume that k-1 alleles occur at an identical low frequency of p0 and that the k(th) allele occurs at a frequency of 1-[(k-1)p0], for loci with two, three, or four alleles, each with a p0 of 0.05, 89-110 additional individuals are required if at least one allele at each of 10 loci is to be retained with a 90% probability; if 100 loci are involved, 134-155 individuals are required. For two, three, or four alleles, when p0 is 0.03 at each of 10 loci, the sample size required to include at least one of the alleles from each class in each locus is 150-186 individuals; if 100 loci are involved, 75 additional individuals are required. Sample sizes of 160-210 plants are required to capture alleles at frequencies of 0.05 or higher in each of 150 loci, with a 90-95% probability. For rare alleles widespread throughout the collection, most alleles with frequencies of 0.03 and 0.05 per locus will be included in a core subset of 25-100 accessions.


ac·a·dem·ic
/?ak??demik/

2.
not of practical relevance; of only theoretical interest.
"the debate has been largely academic"

is it possible @ .01 ?
close grow of a hundred plants plus
The grows are like blocks and resemble hemp sticks on top a few buds on a stick
Not impressive to look at for flower production but easy to pack a open pollination of many individuals in on a square
think red solo cup challenge for anyone familiar with that x100. 10x10 grid

Imagine you go to a field pick the best plants in a wild field harvest seeds from the best looking plants
This is the first selection for the OP "landrace" just selecting for the traits that fit what your looking for
with this "slice" the no loss preservation begins

With legal climate
phytosanitary certifications etc...
having to be licensed for research grows

2000 plants now tough for me
Whats the reality of pollen cocktails ? Just trowing a idea out there
If I mixed the pollen from 1000 males and .... hit 1000 females
100 plants in 10 locations...
how many seeds to gather and how to select ? 2000 -3000
seen pounds of shake and seeds from landrace weed
(this is a project for sure, just wonder if there's enough interest to make it a reality)

 

[romanoweed]

Hey, and shure one could leave this separation of Lines out (from "my thoughts in Depth"), and instead just open pollinate between the Keepers.

I just was thinking trough this, and thought might be needed, but probably im just thinking in wrong direction, and its unnecessary. Cause its all about the Phenocount?

 

[zif]

Fear not, there is no misunderstanding here. You may have missed something in my posts.
I specifically said that any one offspring will contain more or less of a particular gene. Its unlikely that you will completely lose genes.
You say that all genes are at equal risk, that is not accurate. I'm not trying to do anything with this question, other than perhaps jog your memory here, but are you aware of the difference between newer and older genes? Specifically their location in the genome? Or the frequency of mutations compared with their location? Are you aware of how everything is related? How evolution actually works?
In cannabis, the vast majority of new genes are located in the male sex chromosome. If these are successful, they slowly get moved into the small region of the sex chromosome that does get mixed with the female sex chromosome. If they are still successful, they not only get passed throughout the whole population, but over time, they slowly move down into other chromosomes. The oldest genes, can be found in all plants. Not just cannabis, and not a single location geographically, and do not vary from one plant to the next. Most genes are fixed. They are stable and will always be passed on. These genes are not involved in any form of drift. In fact the genes that are susceptible to drift, are very few. These are all, evolutionarily very new genes. As they are passed through the chromosome, the location of these genes will vary from one plant to the next. Sometimes, as the locations are different, at the point of meiosis, both copies are passed onto the offspring. If this gives those plants an advantage, the plants with two copies reproduce more than others. Over time, the whole population gains two copies and so on. The addition of new genes is evolution. The frequency of those genes is drift.

Everything we care about is subject to drift! Everything that varies is subject to drift! We don’t breed to alter uniform traits.

Drift is basic. You can easily observe it. There are straightforward models for how it works.

It was well understood before reading the genome was more than a dream - indeed mostly before the structure of DNA was clear.

It happens in a few generations, not at an evolutionary timescale. It happens more as you have fewer parent plants.

One to one inbreeding, and selfing, are fine. But they introduce maximal drift - that is, fixation of traits at random. It’s just a fact, and no amount of questionable molecular handwaving will change that.

Growing more plants is better for preservation. That’s important to know. It sucks, because most of us can’t grow as many plants as we’d like, nevermind as many as we might actually *need* to in order to be good custodians of the Cannabis genome.

 

[GMT]

If I breed for this, you breed for that and someone else breeds for the other, we are all guilty of forcing drift. But if you're looking to buy seeds, are you looking for ditch weed or well managed drift?
Yes I agree that what we want, is subject to drift, I'm not arguing about that. Just the reason for it, whether or not its desirable, and the numbers needed to accelerate or avoid it.

 

[El Timbo]

But if you're looking to buy seeds, are you looking for ditch weed or well managed drift?

I think there should be a clearer distinction between seeds that are sold to growers - to grow great weed/keep clones - and seeds that are part of a preservation program.

Ideally breeders would be doing both.

 

[romanoweed]

@thedarktorm

my final Sentence how to preserve is basically: i dont know.

But my Guesses are like this:
From many places i heard of Inbreeding depression, and the only type of Breeds where i feel or never hear of inbreeding Dep. are Landraces.

So i gave all my Models regarding what i imagine is happening in Landraces.
Also i gave my Firsthand knowledge of what Quantities were grown in Thailand in the good old Times.
So i will take this Models to try imitate the Mechanisms of Landraces to avoid inbr. depr. , and therfore preserve.

@acespicoli
Nice, i think that could work, grow many Seeds, select, keep a nice Portion Phenos, probably 50 percent, be as serious about propper selction, precision as you can! If you grow at an non-native Place, your Growenviroment might change your Decisions, color your Decisions, but thats a thematic for later, a shortcut to it is to try make your Climate as similar to origin as you can.

----
consider in following statement about breeding that im not really shure if i understood it right. Here we go:

How to select can be learned in normal Books about breeding i think. Those books will you basically said tell you two things: probabilities, meaning how big chances are that a choosen pheno is choosen exact enough, meaning you will be able to determine in Offspring if you choosen it exact enough based on amount of this phenos Traits re-apperance.

the other thing you will learn to determine if a pheno you selected for can even be selected thowads in the first Place, meaning that some traits will disspear even if you selected for it, this is called recessive Traits.

Also a way to select is simply to make notes about each Pheno. The World/Range of this Notes is open. You can write any kind of Feature that you percieve (wich is of course subjective). If you think a good suited Description of a Phenos Smell is "Candy smell", then note it in your Book. Note every desription you possibly can. By making a Selection of your choosen Phenos, and growing it out, you can find out following:if it was recessive or not, or you can find out by the frequency of re-apperance if its worth chasing it further, or otherwise chase another pheno.

So, these determination teckniques can probably anwser you while using them for observation, to whether chase or not chase a Trait you initially decided to chase.

This initial decision what to chase is compleetly free choice, you chase what you like, the calculations help you to determine, how to lock it into your Offspring, or if it would be impossible to lock it.

You shurely need to know the smokeeffect to make important notes and Decisions before its pollinationtime. logically. You can do that by smoking Male pollenSacks,smoke some Female early Hairs, those bouth have some minimal Thc, eat the some slice of a Leaves, smell it, stem rub it... Use all you senses

Its also very important that you know what youre doing before you use all your valuable seedstash. Cause if you make wrong decision with all your seedstash, you then have nothing left to go back. So you should atleast try out a couple seeds first, and observe the Selections you did. Be consequent, if a selection was bad, it never shall be kept, and you shall always then re-do it with its previos seedgeneration. Do not continue half-heated Selections, they have to be simply supperior.

 

[zif]

If I breed for this, you breed for that and someone else breeds for the other, we are all guilty of forcing drift. But if you're looking to buy seeds, are you looking for ditch weed or well managed drift?
Yes I agree that what we want, is subject to drift, I'm not arguing about that. Just the reason for it, whether or not its desirable, and the numbers needed to accelerate or avoid it.

Now you’re talking!

It’s easy to slip into the trap of random = bad. But the traits that get fixed at random could turn out great, and each of our selections will favor qualities we know are great.

That’s a game worth playing, with little cost.