El Timbo
Well-known member
How would one do that if that trait is not part of the gene pool you are working with?
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:D Genetic Preservation :D - Breeding
- Thread starter acespicoli
- Start date
How would one do that if that trait is not part of the gene pool you are working with?
The HashMan
Member
Building & strengthening the immune cell response in the cultivars you're working with, there are various breeding methods as well as cultivation techniques that can be utilized to achieve the "trait".
romanoweed
Well-known member
The question what gets lost in the 100 verus 1000 Plants
It remains unanwsered, i multiple times aked for a book about preservation, got no anwser.
I have a intuition that tells me, its not necessarly about that Earthquaqe-survial Trait that we anyway think is a bit overkill...
There might be parallels with healingpower of medicines: some medicine work fairly well with just one isolated Component (morphine from poppies or such.) , but some herbal medicine just need the full Plant in order to work, and its literally the universe of Substances doing the Job propperly. This is phylosophical an just a guess... Aslong as we cant debunk it, why not use this hyphotetical parallel. And breed high numbers.
My intuition says there is like a symbiosis of breeding like it was done thosand years and free permision, natural human behavior, or free doing or letting of each regional grower .And this creates healthy landraces.
If we act in restrictions and grow 100 , if we breed for adabtion, if we form a cultivar trough one single persons will , we might nomore act in this old highly prooven symbiosis.
Just a guess.
It remains unanwsered, i multiple times aked for a book about preservation, got no anwser.
I have a intuition that tells me, its not necessarly about that Earthquaqe-survial Trait that we anyway think is a bit overkill...
There might be parallels with healingpower of medicines: some medicine work fairly well with just one isolated Component (morphine from poppies or such.) , but some herbal medicine just need the full Plant in order to work, and its literally the universe of Substances doing the Job propperly. This is phylosophical an just a guess... Aslong as we cant debunk it, why not use this hyphotetical parallel. And breed high numbers.
My intuition says there is like a symbiosis of breeding like it was done thosand years and free permision, natural human behavior, or free doing or letting of each regional grower .And this creates healthy landraces.
If we act in restrictions and grow 100 , if we breed for adabtion, if we form a cultivar trough one single persons will , we might nomore act in this old highly prooven symbiosis.
Just a guess.
TheDarkStorm
Well-known member
There are different techs you can use to get around problems as such.....problem seems to be most people dont know how to use them or they cant be bothered with the work and time and space that you have put into it.
But this thread is mostly about the genetic preservation of a line ...so technically that means saving all genetics possible within that line even those that may seem good or bad to us at the time... I would say Sams right and is giving very good advice on how to do this....the numbers he is suggesting should help preserve the line in a healthy state I would say almost indefinitely.
romanoweed
Well-known member
I dont think there are too many people that grew past 200 Generations, until then we dont have a debunking of inbreeding depressiion .
I wished @Fuel could come into here, he seemed to have read university books, he seemed to mention after 100 - 200 Generations it can show
(ECXUSE ME IF I MISSREAD)
I wished @Fuel could come into here, he seemed to have read university books, he seemed to mention after 100 - 200 Generations it can show
(ECXUSE ME IF I MISSREAD)
Ganja 13
Member
What about the original farmers that have been inbreeding these varieties for hundreds and hundreds of years ?
Hmmmmmmmmm
romanoweed
Well-known member
as i just told before in this Tread: Landraces are selected but NOT bottlenecked acording the analysis of this seemingly university Book.
acespicoli
Well-known member
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih. gov/pmc/articles/PMC5296298/
remove space in your browser - frontiers in plant science 2017
Toward an Evolved Concept of Landrace
excerpt
In fact, the most conservative definitions doom landraces to become artifacts in museums, since these cultivars can only evolve without formal breeding. Any definition that does not take into account technological changes relegates most landraces to the status of curios, kept in existence through on-farm conservation as a mere subsidized activity, which can be inviable under the usual restriction of funds for in situ conservation.Landraces Revisited
We propose a more inclusive definition of landraces as plant materials consisting of cultivated varieties that have evolved and may continue evolving, using conventional or modern breeding techniques, in traditional or new agricultural environments within a defined ecogeographical area and under the influence of local human culture. This includes adaptation of landraces to the management systems and the unconscious or conscious selection made by farmers or breeders with available technology. This coevolution has been modeling landraces as a result of several factors: the initial genetic variation; the generation of new variation through mutation, migration, recombination, and crossing with other populations; the soil, climate, and other ecological conditions of the region of cultivation; and the influence of humans, which includes cultivation techniques (evolving over time) and preferences (sensorial, nutritional, religious, etc.). This definition emphasizes the role of humans in the evolution of landraces because human intervention has been a key factor (in fact humans and cultivated plants have constituted a symbiotic system since the Neolithic period).
~~~
suggest reading the entire paper - "landrace"
what is possible ?
remove space in your browser - frontiers in plant science 2017
Toward an Evolved Concept of Landrace
excerpt
In fact, the most conservative definitions doom landraces to become artifacts in museums, since these cultivars can only evolve without formal breeding. Any definition that does not take into account technological changes relegates most landraces to the status of curios, kept in existence through on-farm conservation as a mere subsidized activity, which can be inviable under the usual restriction of funds for in situ conservation.Landraces Revisited
We propose a more inclusive definition of landraces as plant materials consisting of cultivated varieties that have evolved and may continue evolving, using conventional or modern breeding techniques, in traditional or new agricultural environments within a defined ecogeographical area and under the influence of local human culture. This includes adaptation of landraces to the management systems and the unconscious or conscious selection made by farmers or breeders with available technology. This coevolution has been modeling landraces as a result of several factors: the initial genetic variation; the generation of new variation through mutation, migration, recombination, and crossing with other populations; the soil, climate, and other ecological conditions of the region of cultivation; and the influence of humans, which includes cultivation techniques (evolving over time) and preferences (sensorial, nutritional, religious, etc.). This definition emphasizes the role of humans in the evolution of landraces because human intervention has been a key factor (in fact humans and cultivated plants have constituted a symbiotic system since the Neolithic period).
~~~
suggest reading the entire paper - "landrace"
what is possible ?
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G
Guest
What's up with the assumption there is Kerala in sensi star
Edit: Ah I'm thinking White widow is in SS, Kerala in WW.
TheDarkStorm
Well-known member
Something that not not alot of people do with multiple generation one to one breeding is keeping the stock of every generation so you can go back if a line starts going wrong. How many people really test out multiple combinations before going forward while keeping back ups of these. You can also split a line into 2 or 4 or more and inbreed them multiple generations then bring them back together again. Ther are multiple techs you can use to get around inbreeding to get the best possibilities out of a line.
An as to the case of a 100-100 vs 1000-1000...well the possibilities of combinations are almost endless with a 1000-1000....eg female number 1 has the possibility of a 1000 male mates...as does female number 2 ect.....then wen you move these forwards generation to generation the possibilities of different combinations within the line become almost endless...wich is what sam is trying to show us.
@hempy
The Haze Whisperer
Why is it okay to self pollinate by sexual reversing plants and yet it is not okay to breed stable healthy genetics using a single healthy male and female ?.
Different goals, 1000 females X 1000 males for preservation, to avoid losing genes in a landrace.
Self pollinate or breed single healthy male & female for breeding goals, not preservation of all genes in a landrace.
I can assure you that if you self and make s3, s4, s5 they will be inbred and lose vigor and pest and disease resistance.
If you use a single healthy male and female I would ask are they related? And what is your goal, preservation of all genes or improvement of some sort?
Different goals require different breeding methods.
-SamS
Different goals, 1000 females X 1000 males for preservation, to avoid losing genes in a landrace.
Self pollinate or breed single healthy male & female for breeding goals, not preservation of all genes in a landrace.
I can assure you that if you self and make s3, s4, s5 they will be inbred and lose vigor and pest and disease resistance.
If you use a single healthy male and female I would ask are they related? And what is your goal, preservation of all genes or improvement of some sort?
Different goals require different breeding methods.
-SamS
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The HashMan
Member
Even people who utilize PCR for comprehensive gene sequencing barely understand the full capacity of the cannabis genome itself.
Now I ask what are the preservation goals of someone breeding on that large of a scale?
To me it seems the only reason you would do so is to try to keep a unlimited supply of genetic combinations for future breeding projects, but 1000 offspring will still share the same P1+P2 genetic heredity, and without replenishing populations with specific combinations of genes, you will see more genetic deficiencies "inbreeding depression"
I think I read somewhere that commercial crops of corn will suffer inbreeding depression around 20 generations of inbreeding, this is why farmers usually share the same genetics.
Same genetics + different environment = genetic biodiversity = new genes developing to replenish the same gene-pool.
I've never been a fan of picking 1 phenotype out of 100+ plants.
I have always kept selectively bred father plants to pass on specific genes though.
I usually open pollinate the whole population to homogenize specific traits on a larger scale, while preserving the sex profile.
Sure you will find rare mutants defined as "rare traits" but those are really just a result of basic genetic inheritance.
Now I ask what are the preservation goals of someone breeding on that large of a scale?
To me it seems the only reason you would do so is to try to keep a unlimited supply of genetic combinations for future breeding projects, but 1000 offspring will still share the same P1+P2 genetic heredity, and without replenishing populations with specific combinations of genes, you will see more genetic deficiencies "inbreeding depression"
I think I read somewhere that commercial crops of corn will suffer inbreeding depression around 20 generations of inbreeding, this is why farmers usually share the same genetics.
Same genetics + different environment = genetic biodiversity = new genes developing to replenish the same gene-pool.
I've never been a fan of picking 1 phenotype out of 100+ plants.
I have always kept selectively bred father plants to pass on specific genes though.
I usually open pollinate the whole population to homogenize specific traits on a larger scale, while preserving the sex profile.
Sure you will find rare mutants defined as "rare traits" but those are really just a result of basic genetic inheritance.
El Timbo
Well-known member
Only if that is how they were made. They could also come from multiple parents.
The HashMan
Member
I would say it depends on How you breed those genetics, ether or could be the outcome.
For example I'd want to knock out any hybrid necrosis genes that would effect my future progeny, yet I would want to improve fiber genes to increase hardiness.
Genes shouldnt be thought of as a On and Off switch, but rather polymorphic to the environment in which they acclimate, even though breeding techniques have a huge role in developing a cultivar as well.
Who says anything isn’t OK to do? That is the point of the quote from Sam you posted, what is the goal of your seed making? It will impact how you can go about making them the way you envisioned. No one said it was wrong to take a female and male cannabis plant and make seeds, it’s what you try to predict about those seeds that is important. There is no single magic ”breeding” tool for all situations and all people, it’s highly subjective and it starts with an idea, a vision, what are you trying to do? Some just want to make seeds with a female as they love to smoke it or it has a very good flavor or something else they value. Others want to sell seeds and then they want to be able to tell their customers what to expect in the pack of seeds they can buy. Some people are worried that some types of cannabis are not available like they used to be and they want to ”preserve” those types. These three different situations call for different ”breeding strategies”. So, before having this ”right or wrong” discussion about ”breeding” with or without numbers and with or without males, we need to realize that it all depends on what our goals are. Mine are not the same as yours or the same as a seed bank or nursery. I think that was the whole point of the quote from Sam, I don’t know but he’s been saying this over and over but people seem to take a line or two and try to support their own absolute perspective.
But this thread is named ”genetic preservation” right so it should not be news to anyone that even took half an interest over the last 40 years to realize that yes, if we want to ”preserve” genetic diversity we need to use a lot of big numbers. F x M as well as using one single female to make feminized seeds with herself won’t give you as much diversity as you could get using much, much higher numbers of plants. But sometimes there’s not a lot of seeds to start with then you have to go with what you have to go with.
@hempy
The Haze Whisperer
Hi Sam i also herd Breeder Steve say that you also end up with sterile plants by s5 or s7.
Scientists say male plants play a huge role in maintaining the health of the next generation but they also play a key roll in passing on ancestral information to the next generation.You posted some time back in a similar discussion to this were you said that females also carry ancestral information in the matting but not to the extent as a male.
So if the male carry's all the ancestral info of that line and the female also carry's genetic information how can you loos genetic information with in that land race if you inbreed it.
A land race has evolved over time so if one wanted to preserve it would you not have all you need in a pair of healthy plants of a given land race.
Your largest threat would be contamination of the genetics by stray pollen or Disease being introduced i would of thought.
I have inbreed a Thai line 10 generations never lost vigor or any thing i could see i have a different one that's now inbreed 8 generations same.
I could understand larger numbers with say Haze as it is a hybrid and has as a result many combinations and more you inbreed it things are lost but not land races that are true breeding surely.
Ganja 13
Member
Hi Hempy
Have you crossed your Thai line with any outstanding pure indica line's and observed the outcome of the hybrid crosses ?
Would love to see how it crosses in a 50/50 sativa/indica hybrid even though I know how strongly you believe in keeping a highly prized pure line untainted
Have you crossed your Thai line with any outstanding pure indica line's and observed the outcome of the hybrid crosses ?
Would love to see how it crosses in a 50/50 sativa/indica hybrid even though I know how strongly you believe in keeping a highly prized pure line untainted
acespicoli
Well-known member
Hybridization may drive rare taxa to extinction through genetic swamping,
where the rare form is replaced by hybrids,
or by demographic swamping,
where population growth rates are reduced due to the wasteful production of maladaptive hybrids
Evol Appl. 2016 Aug; 9(7): 892–908.Published online 2016 Feb 22. doi: 10.1111/eva.12367
Definition of treatise
1 : a systematic exposition or argument in writing including a methodical discussion of the facts
and principles involved and conclusions reached a treatise on higher education
seen your thai very nice preservation hempy
good vibes
where the rare form is replaced by hybrids,
or by demographic swamping,
where population growth rates are reduced due to the wasteful production of maladaptive hybrids
Evol Appl. 2016 Aug; 9(7): 892–908.Published online 2016 Feb 22. doi: 10.1111/eva.12367
Definition of treatise
1 : a systematic exposition or argument in writing including a methodical discussion of the facts
and principles involved and conclusions reached a treatise on higher education
seen your thai very nice preservation hempy
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