:D Genetic Preservation :D - Breeding

[@hempy]

Hi Hempy

Have you crossed your Thai line with any outstanding pure indica line's and observed the outcome of the hybrid crosses ?

Would love to see how it crosses in a 50/50 sativa/indica hybrid even though I know how strongly you believe in keeping a highly prized pure line untainted

hi Ganja i did cross the Thai to a old Hawaiian Hash plant did a 1.1 then did a back to Thai male so 50/50 and 75% Thai they turned out nice but only grew a few to test so far.

Once you have seed of it pure and its preserved nothing wrong in making hybrids but once its hybridized you cant use them to go back.

I just dont like smoking indicas few i have found i enjoy.


acespicoli thank you but i cant take much credit the plants did all the work.

 

[Ganja 13]

Nice work Hempy

 

[Ganja 13]

Wouldn't mind some info on the Hawaiian line you crossed with the Thai please Hempy

 

[Ganja 13]

What's up with the assumption there is Kerala in sensi star
Edit: Ah I'm thinking White widow is in SS, Kerala in WW.

It's on the official Paradise website.... information section a few + pages in

Kerala × Skunk #1 × Afghan

Backcrossed to the Afghan × ?

I'd put my money on it being a Kandahar

I made S1 seeds from the Kerala phenotype

Pic for reference: The front plant is the best indica phenotype I found growing 8 S1 seeds out to maturity

Dried bud of best indica phenotype:

I also made S2 seeds

Namaste

 

[Ganja 13]

And pic of the original F1 Kerala phenotype seedling.... found from a single seed purchased...lol

 

[VerdantGreen]

I dont think there are too many people that grew past 200 Generations, until then we dont have a debunking of inbreeding depressiion .

I have Acquaah's 'Principles of plant genetics and breeding'

In it he says (about inbreeding depression) - " The effect of inbreeding is most significant in the first 5-8 generations, and negligible after 8 generations in most cases "

he was talking about naturally outcrossing species like cannabis.

On a more general note:
I think it's great that people want to do the best job they can in preserving landraces etc, and i applaud them for it....
BUT i also like to smoke very strong, tasty weed and i also applaud everyone who crosses plants or self plants to achieve that too. I don't feel i need to pick sides...

All these techniques imo - outcrossing/inbreeding/selfing are best thought of as tools in a toolbox - to be used where appropriate and people should be open minded about the best one to use in each situation.
If you were building yourself a car, its unlikely that you would be ok using the spanners/wrench, but flatly refuse to use a screwdriver!
VG

 

[GMT]

The white race is descended from 27 individuals. Everyone colour is descended from one male ancestor. We also all have a single female ancestor ( though the two never met).
Nature exists through evolution. This involves throwing some genes away to make room for better ones. Preservation is unnatural. If populations were better off preserving genes, life as we know it wouldn't exist. For a start it would consist of immortal amoebas.
The concept of massive scale preservation projects, keeps us stagnent, and is designed to protect not the plant, but the large scale seed producers.

 

[VerdantGreen]

Good points GMT!
Genetically, Cannabis wants to outcross.. hence the wind pollination.


GMT, you've maintained some of your own lines for multiple generations, in doing so, what are your experiences with inbreeding depression ?
Did you find that you 'come through the other side' after a certain amount of generations?


VG

 

[TheDarkStorm]

It's on the official Paradise website.... information section a few + pages in

Kerala × Skunk #1 × Afghan

Backcrossed to the Afghan × ?

I'd put my money on it being a Kandahar

View Image


View Image

I made S1 seeds from the Kerala phenotype

Pic for reference: The front plant is the best indica phenotype I found growing 8 S1 seeds out to maturity

View Image

Dried bud of best indica phenotype:

View Image

I also made S2 seeds

Namaste

Sam said your sensi star pheno reminded him of one he found.....I wonder if paradise used sams rare Kerala x skunk#1 cross ? Seems highly likely now.

 

[romanoweed]

yeah, we have to be open, and a one liner in a book telling about "5 generations till inbreeding depro" is probably to put into question.

 

[GMT]

Just done the F16 gens on the bruised nuts. The parent plants are in my mars thread. Depression? Nah, they're really happy. Drift/evolution/higher frequencies of the desirable though, absolutely, thankfully.
There again I'm not a preservation guy. It goes against what I believe in. The saving grace being, we all have different tastes, are all chasing different things, and therefore make differing choices from the same starting populations.
60-70% of all DNA is junk DNA. Only 30-40% counts. A lot of that counts, not as unique genes, but gene ratios. How many copies of those genes were captured at meiosis. This is what we are really dealing with. You will always get a mixture of desirable and undesirable in any populations. I just don't believe in breeding from undesirables.
I have however done some f stages a couple of times, I have back crossed to particularly desirable plants. I do keep past generations of seeds in case I need to get back to them. But if you get a population of crappy plants, that's poor selection of parents. Not too few parents.
Even Einstein only had one mum and one dad. Everything has one mother and one father, open pollination doesn't give any plant more than one mother and father. Every cup winner had one of each parent. To say one to one mating is bad for the population, misses the point of how nature works.
If you want preservation, don't germinate the seeds or lose the clone. That's how the large seed preservation banks, that some govts keep, for future food crops work. Not with farms endlessly planting and open pollinating fields each year.

 

[VerdantGreen]

yeah, we have to be open, and a one liner in a book telling about "5 generations till inbreeding depro" is probably to put into question.

Maybe, but it is a well respected, $100 book about breeding that is recommended on these forums, (i got mine for $20 from amazon because the spine was damaged ) and i think it counts as a decent citation. It also isn't a one liner, rather it is what i chose as the relevant quote.

Also you have misquoted my quote. he said

The effect of inbreeding is most significant in the first 5-8 generations, and negligible after 8 generations in most cases "

Can you give a citation about your talk of '100-200 generations' ?


VG

 

[Ganja 13]

Sam said your sensi star pheno reminded him of one he found.....I wonder if paradise used sams rare Kerala x skunk#1 cross ? Seems highly likely now.

Hi DarkStorm

Luc from Paradise Seeds claims these were sourced and collected from the hippy trails......hmmmmm

My intuition is strongly suggesting it's the same rare plant that Sam found, which also Flying Dutchman used in their breeding program !!!

And most probably was the same plant Neville used crossing to the sativa varieties in the early Seed Bank day's and S.S.S.C

Great pic up DarkStorm
Thanks Sam

All the goodies were found very early on remember !

Namaste

Info page:

Home Information Paradise Seeds History: Amsterdam Roots + Sensi Star Shines!
Paradise Seeds History: Amsterdam Roots + Sensi Star Shines!
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Rating 5 Out of 5 (2 Reviews)
History is important. This is something we have been realising over the course of this year as we celebrate 25 years in the cannabis industry. This has started many conversations about our Paradise Seeds history and how we started in the business.

One thing we have realized is how important history is in the cannabis industry. It's something you can't buy (or simulate with shiny marketing) and after 25 years of still being here, it tells you that there is a product to be trusted! So let's take a little walk back in time and revisit some Paradise Seeds history!

Our founder, Luc, first planted a cannabis seed in the back garden of his parents' house in the early 1980s and fell in love with the cannabis plant he grew! That first plant (which was grown from a seed that had originally come from the island of Aruba in the Caribbean) started him on a journey which would officially become Paradise Seeds, the company, in 1994.

The Squat Years: An Experimental Era!
Amsterdam in the late 1980s and early 1990s was a very different city to the one we know now. Its beauty lay in the traditional face of its buildings and canals, but there was also much urban decay. Many of those grand old buildings were abandoned and crumbling. This abundance of deserted city buildings fuelled a thriving 'squat' scene with the spaces being colonized by a youthful and progressive crowd.

As well as becoming living spaces, these sites became a focus for arts, music, politics and the language of liberation. Luc arrived in Amsterdam in the late 1980s and began living in squats, enthused by the vibrancy of the scene with its creativity, mad parties (that often lasted for days!) and sense of do-it-yourself innovation.

history

"It was a very tolerant time," remembers Luc. "The vibe at that time was still influenced by the hippy era and there was a real culture of 'anything goes'. This was also true with the authorities attitudes towards cannabis. The police weren't too concerned about weed and hash as their priority was heroin, which was a big problem in Amsterdam at the time. As a result, you could walk around with a kilo in your bag and not have to worry. You could also grow a lot of weed plants without having to worry about getting busted!"

This tolerant attitude made the city a magnet for cannabis travelers (from the UK, Europe and the USA) - many of them using it as a stopover between travels to and from India, Pakistan, Afghanistan and other countries in Asia, which was known back then as the 'Hippy Trail'. They would bring hash back with them and sell it in Amsterdam, but also would return with cannabis landrace seeds. Also at that time, there was an ex-pat community of American cannabis heads who had fled the War on Drugs in their own country. They also brought seeds as well as their cultivation knowledge.

This is the scene that existed in the 1980s and the roots of Paradise Seeds history can be traced back to here. Living in a squat, Luc began to experiment with growing cannabis. He began collecting seeds and growing them on the roof of the building; "There were a lot of buckets filled with soil and a lot of different plants at all stages of the growing process," he says of this time. When winter came, he moved inside, setting up a very rudimentary indoor grow. In the days before an established cannabis grow equipment industry, necessity was the mother of invention and the indoor rooms were filled with fluorescent light tubes (on the ceiling, floors and walls!). It was during this time that he began to really experiment with cross pollination, phenotype selection and back crossing.

New Strains: Enter The Dutch Dragon!
From this basic breeding process emerged three original strains. The first was christened 'Amsterdam Flame', which was a Kerali (Southern Indian) seed, crossed with an outdoor Skunk which had been adapted to the Dutch climate (its home was the roof of the building that housed the legendary Grasshopper coffee shop). The second was 'Dutch Dragon' - a strain that lives on in the Paradise Seeds collection (although it has changed quite a bit from those early days). These were the first strains available from Paradise Seeds when the company was formed in 1994.

Sensi Star Becomes Champion of the Cannabis World!
The third strain was 'Sensi Star' (short for Sensimillia, which was the gold standard weed at the time - the origin of the name coming from Spanish 'sin semilla' meaning 'without seed'). This strain played a pivotal role in the Paradise Seeds history. At the time, Luc says that he knew Sensi Star was a special plant. It was the combination of Afghani and Indian genetics and Skunk genetics which were then back crossed with an Afghani and the selection process was made over hundreds of plants. The result was an incredibly resinous indica plant with so many trichomes and a very unique taste.

Cup

In 1999 the Paradise Seeds crew arrived at the High Times Cup in Amsterdam as a small player on the seed scene, but that changed overnight. The crew brought along some Sensi Star plants and people could not believe what they saw. The previous year had been all about White Widow and its amazing trichome count, but here was a new champion! Sensi Star had an insane trichome frost, ridiculous resin count, knock out strength and an out of this world taste. It took the High Times Cup that year and went on to achieve the double with a victory in the Highlife Cup.

Paradise Seeds had arrived on the biggest stage and walked away with the biggest prize in the cannabis world at the time. Sensi Star continues to be one of our best selling strains and a real piece of Paradise Seeds history.

 

[Ganja 13]

Same plant I believe

 

[Ganja 13]

And the famous White Widow.....Hmmmm

Lol

Hempy ?.......lol

Does anyone remember what year's both Sensi Star and White Widow were unleashed in seed form to the public ? Lol

 

[romanoweed]

Some of my Thoughts

Lets assume there is the Perfect Breeder, and he chooses the one of a 1000s Pheno and use it in a 1to1 Mating (with another one of 1000s Pheno) as his next Generation for his Preservation,

This Pheno has it all, it had the Smell, the potency, robustness, even subtile things like a certain gloss in the Resin, a certain coloration, any subtile or obvious Trait there can be. All displayed in this very Pheno.

One would think that thats all you need, cause it has all good things of the initial Landrace stock, and none of the bad things, and we would think that therefore the right Information will be passed down to Generation 2.

In Comparison i showed a not quiet as good Pheno used for the Next Generation. passing on not quiet as good Traits compared to the one of a 1000s Pheno.

And acording some Science a 1to1 Mating would act as preservation for unlimited Generations. But if inbreeding Depresion is a thing happening trough decimation, wich is a Observation from Scientists (not a prooven science ?) , then this would not work as Preservation, cause the decimation.

------

Lets imagine now another Method: we take the initial Landace and the expression would be as following:

Some Phenos are ok (1 2), some are very good (3), some are really bad (4).


If we now do a SLIGHT selection, and cull Pheno (4), and keep the better or the ok Phenos for the next Geneaation we applying a selective Pressure too. and the Offspring will show a improved average expression(5) .

Therefore we achieved Preservation too, like we did in the first Scenarion using only a 1to1 Mating. But we have prevented inbreeding Depression aswell!
Cause we have eliminated the two Causes of inbreeding Depression, namely wrong selection, and bottlenecking. (We did not necessarly do a wrong selection, even we used some ok (3 4) Phenos , every single pheno we choose was above average expression of the initial Landraces average expression)

-----

From what i heard it is important to select against bad Phenos to prevent inner Dynamics causing a Strain to revert back to its weak wild Anchestors, but with a slight selective Pressure we have achieved that, right?

Some people like to apply high selective Pressure (one of a 1000).. But Everyone can choose a Point on this Line between:

- Stabilisation of the killerpheno, but danger of inbreeding Depr.
- Variation, but no danger of ibreeding depr.

 

[funkyhorse]

Sam said your sensi star pheno reminded him of one he found.....I wonder if paradise used sams rare Kerala x skunk#1 cross ? Seems highly likely now.

Seedsman Skunkman Range Indian Skunk
Kerala x Skunk#1
From the 10 pack, 5 seeds showed roots, all of them showed cotyledons but only 3 of them developed into a plant after going through the mutation stage. What year this cross was done, anybody knows?
They showed sex a couple of days ago and the 3 of them are females. They have showed sex on average at day 25, in 10 days I am intending to put them outdoors in the greenhouse to flower. I found I have a much better chance of finnishing long flowering plants if I bring them outdoors after showing sex at this time of the year
Indian Skunk 1

Indian Skunk 2

Indian Skunk 3 is for the fans of variegated plants. I am seeing variegation happening on old strains, old seeds
I am also seeing the variegation from the same side of the plant

I am sexing my lone TFD Haze Mist that sprouted from a 10 pack. After 30 days in the flowering room it didnt show sex.

 

[Ganja 13]

Seedsman Skunkman Range Indian Skunk
Kerala x Skunk#1
From the 10 pack, 5 seeds showed roots, all of them showed cotyledons but only 3 of them developed into a plant after going through the mutation stage. What year this cross was done, anybody knows?

Very good question indeed !!!

Now we are getting down to the nitty gritty

Sam ??? Was it you that performed the initial mating ?

And when ?

 

[VerdantGreen]

It's an interesting discussion.


Perfect genetic preservation = not improving the line/population at all. (which would involve losing some of the diversity)



Most people who make seeds will be trying to select to evolve their lines in the ways that they see as beneficial. Higher potency, better terps, more uniformity (if you see that as desirable) etc etc.
Personally i do try to maintain as much diversity as i can by not excluding genetics for no good reason.. i will use all the decent males i have unless i was going to progeny test individual males, so keeping that diversity for people to select from in the future rather than 'blind' selection, and i'll try and use a few good (easier to evaluate and select) females rather than just one if possible. Not much but the best i can do.

The great thing is that we all get to choose what our goals are and how we try to get there. That is also diversity worth appreciating!

VG
p.s. keep your seeds dry and in the freezer. The simplest form of genetic preservation.

 

[El Timbo]

It also very much involves random mutations and bigger numbers means more chance of beneficial mutations appearing.

Rather than better we might say better suited to the current environment. The benefit of variation in a population is that if the environment changes drastically there is a better chance that some individuals will be better suited to the new environment.

All genes "want" to preserve/reproduce themselves - but some will naturally succeed above others - surely "unnatural" is when we interfere by making selections.

I don't see why preservation and hybrid seed breeding aimed at growers can't exist side by side.