Coots mix test results with fish compost

[plantingplants]

Hahaha yes that was a silly line of thought there and it wasn't making sense to me. I can't tell if you're just telling me that my reasoning is wrong or if you're saying the whole idea of bugs attacking unhealthy plants is wrong.

The only reasonable explanation I can imagine is that plants have defense systems and if a plant isn't totally healthy, those are weakened.

 

[milkyjoe]

bullshit, we have not evolved to eat crappy food. The human genome has not changed in 10,000 yrs. Just look at the rate of metabolic disease (heart, diabetes, alzheimers, etc). The more carbs we eat the higher those things go...and seed oils, and factory farmed shit. Say what you will about Albrecht ratios, the food shit is not even close to being in disputel

Thinking that is detrimental to your health.

Plants may evolve faster but it is my experience those micros are critical

l

 

[plantingplants]

Mj, that was satire. He was making fun of the idea that bugs only like eating sick plants.

 

[FoothillFarming]

To answer your question on what you could read about why bugs choose unhealthy plants, check out Tuning Into Nature by Phillips Callahan. I know MM doesn't really think it's sounds science, and has stated so in the past, however I found it enlightening.

http://www.amazon.com/Tuning-Nature-Philip-S-Callahan/dp/0911311696

Or listen to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVkaJmc2SKk

Then consider this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5XbJEuvKS4

 

[milkyjoe]

Mj, that was satire. He was making fun of the idea that bugs only like eating sick plants.

They do. University of Florida research, Tom Dykstra, shows that sick plants have a different infrared signature than healthy plants. Insect antenna are infrared sensors. Even Monsanto has infrared sensors placed in fields all over America to try to understand this.

 

[plantingplants]

I'm not sure if he was making fun of the whole idea or not but at the very least he was just making fun of the idea that the reason they eat sick plants is because they don't like healthy ones.

Although that line of reasoning isn't that crazy considering that there are examples of what he was saying satirically, like vultures who eat carrion or microbes (!) that feed on decay. They are specifically adapted to eating dying and rotten things.

I imagine the answer has more to do with weakened plant defense mechanisms, though?

 

[rykus]

Not sure this is an appropriate place to post this, but I have been trying to use what I've learned here to move to no till organic style growing.... Anyways the one. Spot I bought new25 gal geo pots and did a soil mix using used soil I had that is fairly high draining peat based, and added a safe recommended amount of amends mixed in to the top 1/3 or so of the container. At my other spot I just cut out the stump of the 15 gal pot and planted the cuts, then top dressed when they established about 3/4 cup of organics every 10-14 days...

Anyways the plants with the top dress and totally unmixed are killing the plants that got it mixed in all at once, and seem much faster and healthier....way bigger leaves and stems!

Going to have to say I think coots and quite a few others on here are a little much for my taste.... I thought maybe I was way of before I joined, but although I have learned to use my food much more effectively by reading here, I don't like the strong soil mix.... Top dress makes sense and keeps me busy like feeding would before, I can still tune it a bit.

Only thing I don't like is the surface caking up a bit, and resisting water.i can see now the living mulch would likely be the next step.

Thanks and sorry if a dis rail

 

[Kygiacomo!!!]

Not sure this is an appropriate place to post this, but I have been trying to use what I've learned here to move to no till organic style growing.... Anyways the one. Spot I bought new25 gal geo pots and did a soil mix using used soil I had that is fairly high draining peat based, and added a safe recommended amount of amends mixed in to the top 1/3 or so of the container. At my other spot I just cut out the stump of the 15 gal pot and planted the cuts, then top dressed when they established about 3/4 cup of organics every 10-14 days...

Anyways the plants with the top dress and totally unmixed are killing the plants that got it mixed in all at once, and seem much faster and healthier....way bigger leaves and stems!

Going to have to say I think coots and quite a few others on here are a little much for my taste.... I thought maybe I was way of before I joined, but although I have learned to use my food much more effectively by reading here, I don't like the strong soil mix.... Top dress makes sense and keeps me busy like feeding would before, I can still tune it a bit.

Only thing I don't like is the surface caking up a bit, and resisting water.i can see now the living mulch would likely be the next step.

Thanks and sorry if a dis rail

i agree with u about the top caking up, last year on the plant that i was doing top dressings on got stem rot. it was my fault though bc i the top dressings to close to the stem. now i just mix it all in and only top dress with insect frass,bat guano and Ewc.

 

[Microbeman]

Hahaha yes that was a silly line of thought there and it wasn't making sense to me. I can't tell if you're just telling me that my reasoning is wrong or if you're saying the whole idea of bugs attacking unhealthy plants is wrong.

The only reasonable explanation I can imagine is that plants have defense systems and if a plant isn't totally healthy, those are weakened.

What you say makes sense. I was actually poking fun at the whole scenario and not you. I was of course obviously being sarcastic as you picked up on.

I am serious though that I would like to see some solid research. I do believe that plants build natural systemic defenses to various pathogens as well as some localized ones, however I do not know whether we have got to the point of detecting these based upon some certain simple readings and instruments.

I have anecdotally witnessed the prevention of pathogens and pests by a counter-balance of opposing-type organisms. (e.g. pathogens prevented with Trichoderma - and/or actinobacteria; even stomata bacteria guardians OR
thrips/gnats/mites prevented by Rove beetles, nematodes, other organisms ) and have read supportive studies.

 

[Microbeman]

bullshit, we have not evolved to eat crappy food. The human genome has not changed in 10,000 yrs. Just look at the rate of metabolic disease (heart, diabetes, alzheimers, etc). The more carbs we eat the higher those things go...and seed oils, and factory farmed shit. Say what you will about Albrecht ratios, the food shit is not even close to being in disputel

Thinking that is detrimental to your health.

Plants may evolve faster but it is my experience those micros are critical

l

Please see my previous reply to planting plants.

 

[Microbeman]

Not sure this is an appropriate place to post this, but I have been trying to use what I've learned here to move to no till organic style growing.... Anyways the one. Spot I bought new25 gal geo pots and did a soil mix using used soil I had that is fairly high draining peat based, and added a safe recommended amount of amends mixed in to the top 1/3 or so of the container. At my other spot I just cut out the stump of the 15 gal pot and planted the cuts, then top dressed when they established about 3/4 cup of organics every 10-14 days...

Anyways the plants with the top dress and totally unmixed are killing the plants that got it mixed in all at once, and seem much faster and healthier....way bigger leaves and stems!

Going to have to say I think coots and quite a few others on here are a little much for my taste.... I thought maybe I was way of before I joined, but although I have learned to use my food much more effectively by reading here, I don't like the strong soil mix.... Top dress makes sense and keeps me busy like feeding would before, I can still tune it a bit.

Only thing I don't like is the surface caking up a bit, and resisting water.i can see now the living mulch would likely be the next step.

Thanks and sorry if a dis rail

Absolutely. Thas what we bin talkin about. Three little birds tried pushing this way way back and Mr Fista ran a poorman's study posted on the forum supporting this concept using cheopo soil testing.

 

[Microbeman]

To answer your question on what you could read about why bugs choose unhealthy plants, check out Tuning Into Nature by Phillips Callahan. I know MM doesn't really think it's sounds science, and has stated so in the past, however I found it enlightening.

http://www.amazon.com/Tuning-Nature-Philip-S-Callahan/dp/0911311696

Or listen to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVkaJmc2SKk

Then consider this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5XbJEuvKS4

If you read back through my posts 'I think' you will find it is the instruments and testing by proponents on the forum which I questioned. It is a fuzz now which I'd need to look up but I think I posted information about the correct instrumentation and testing in contrast to that being postulated and everyone vanished.

I could be wrong. I'll look at the links you posted; thanks.

I'm not one to deny anecdotal information so long as the conclusions are not presumptive.

As an example, when I proved that packaged sphagnum peatmoss (SP) is not inert, this was irrefutable because I recorded video of living organisms when it was hydrated with distilled water (DW).

The DW by itself showed no living organisms.

When I fed the SP and DW with molasses (BSM) and woke up a myriad of diverse organisms to video illustrate that it was far from inert, I also showed the lack of these organisms in a mix of DW & BSM alone.

This was anecdotal evidence but the conclusion illustrating that the samples of SP I examined were not inert, was irrefutable scientifically.

Supposing I had measured the pH of each sample and in each one where there were living organisms the reading was 5.8 pH and the ones without living organisms always measured 6.2 pH.

A presumptive and unscientific conclusion would be that these living organisms require a pH of 5.8 or these organisms came to life because the pH was 5.8. This would be illogical (but could still be a contributing factor for further research).

 

[plantingplants]

I did a fizz test and I had to tilt my head to hear it.

 

[plantingplants]

So now the new growth has purple on the middle of the new fan leaves as well as where the petiole meets the leaf on the next set of fan leaves. Every plant is exhibiting this.

Sorry this is a terrible photo but you can see the purplish almost brown coloration.

It has been chilly and cloudy the last two days so they're over watered but I don't think it's the overwatering, like P lockout or something because it happened to some plants in smaller containers that weren't over watered.

 

[FoothillFarming]

That purple will disappear in the next week here when the weather warms up IMO.

 

[Microbeman]

I agree with Foothill that cool weather is the main cause of purple unless genetic.

I'd also like to inject that I don't want what I've said to be misinterpreted as dissing the methods expounded by Joe, Foot and Ore.

I'm only voicing;
that certain testing parameters and results are not 100% reliable and results of proscribed remedies unpredictable and therefore instructing others in this could be questionable

that certain results observed are not necessarily based on the attributed cause and becoming too complacent in this when teaching others is questionable.

 

[milkyjoe]

This is a perfect example to show where I disagree with the "organic forum" guys.

My take is that the red stems are a lack of nutrition. The cold makes the microbes in the soil less active so less minerals being made available to the plant. Add on to that cloudy weather so less energy into the plant, less photosynthesis and the plant then cannot afford to send carbon exudates...the carbonic acids MM talks about...to the roots. So less food for microbes, they get even less active, less food to the plant and on and on. It is a self defeating cycle.

Now you can wait until the sun comes out, provides energy to the plant, which then in turn chips off some liquid carbon to the microbes, who then pick it up and provide food to the plant. But at that point you have already lost yield potential.

See I look at it like this. A plant, whether from seed or clone, starts its life with a certain potential. Every single stress that occurs to it in its life takes away from its potential. So, to me, my job as a grower is to avoid those stresses or at least minimize them.

So the overall problem, as I see it, is a lack of mineral nutrition in the plant brought on by cold/lack of sunshine.

My response is not to just say oh well, that is the breaks but to provide minerals to that plant. My first inclination would be to use a foliar. My next inclination is to provide some salt nutrition directly to the roots.

My exact formula for this is stolen from AEA, it is per 1000 square ft of garden:

6 ounces of Photomag
6 ounces of HyperCap
12 ounces of Sea Shield

That gets enough energy into the plant to avoid red stems and minimize the damage caused by lack of nutrition.

You rarely hear about the runt of the litter turning into an NFL linebacker. Give those babies some food.

 

[plantingplants]

Mj, isn't my soil full of immediately accessible nutrients? Why are microbes needed at this moment for uptake?

Also, I reasoned along the same lines, and I wonder if anyone suggesting that purple means cold would necessarily disagree. It makes sense that the cold is what is limiting uptake and turning things colors. I sprayed them with (per gal) 1 tbsp fish emulsion, 4 ml micropak, 0.7g agsil 16, and 1g Albion ca. I don't have Photomag or hypercap unfortunately. Guess I need to add P and Mg to that foliar huh.

I'll see how they look tomorrow. 6g/gal Albion calcium plus 4ml micropak didn't improve the yellow thin wrinkled new growth.

 

[orechron]

Not everything just passively gets into plant roots if I remember right. Some nutrients do, but they still pass the casparian strip, a selective membrane. Maybe its too energy intensive to actively transport the majority of the nutrients the plants needs. Kind of like us climbing 300 ft trees for 10 calories of berries. Cell biologists are always finding new membrane proteins that are specifically made for transport of one thing, but that protein is huge and takes a lot enzymatic steps to build (energy). Microbes and organic acids bonding with and neutralizing the charge of an ionic nutrient probably costs less carbon to the plant.

When its cold everything will slow down. More than just soil activity, enzymatic activity in the plant will also slow. Look at rhododendrons in the winter: they droop their leaves to reduce absorbance of sunlight because in cold temps the enzymes normally doing something with absorbed photons aren't working well. Light becomes toxic.

 

[Microbeman]

This is a perfect example to show where I disagree with the "organic forum" guys.
My take is that the red stems are a lack of nutrition.

If this is about the purpling of foliage, it is misplaced.

So now the new growth has purple on the middle of the new fan leaves as well as where the petiole meets the leaf on the next set of fan leaves.