Colorado House Bill 1284

[cobcoop]

I do not know of a solution that will allow you to manufacture a controlled substance in your home for sale to the general public. It does not seem that the growers can come to a common agreement. Seems split between those who would move into industrial settings and allow for inventory and inspection and those who think they should be able to just do their thing. I have asked over and over "what works for you guys?" and tried to foster that debate.

How are people allowed to grow tomatoes and sell them at the farmers market? To me that seems like the closest analogy.

Like it's a plant that grows from the earth, and could quite possibly be the answer to a lot of problems that effect humanity as a whole.

$$$ talks

bullshit walks

....sad but true

That is human nature, and yes sad but true. Just gotta keep doing your thing though man, and hopefully all the shit will come out in the wash. Again, using food as an analogy, people are waking up to facts behind BGH, factory farms etc. I think once the new car smell wears off A20, many people will seek out clean, quality products.

 

[Mile Hi Dave]

Read the Rosenthal case, the Jeff Jones case, and the cases that helped end segregation in the 60's. Yes we are different because we are in the constitution but the commerce clause reigns supreme. If there was such a great 10th Amendment argument don't you think someone would have tried it?

I do not know of a solution that will allow you to manufacture a controlled substance in your home for sale to the general public. It does not seem that the growers can come to a common agreement. Seems split between those who would move into industrial settings and allow for inventory and inspection and those who think they should be able to just do their thing. I have asked over and over "what works for you guys?" and tried to foster that debate.

You would be able to help 5 people and under with minimal regulation and the only real requirement being that you are named as the caregiver on their card.

I believe on page 36 section (e) or (f) you will find the extra plant recommendation. Really won't be all that relevant except to justify sales to a patient in an amount greater than 6 plants and 2 ounces.

Hey Warren, ow exactly is the Fed applying the "commerce" clause? Last time I checked, it regulated "interstate" commerce, not "intrastate".

The Tenth Amendment was adopted after the Constitutional ratification process to emphasize the fact that the states remained individual and unique sovereignties; that they were empowered in areas that the Constitution did not delegate to the federal government. With this in mind, any federal attempt to legislate beyond the Constitutional limits of Congress’ authority is a usurpation of state sovereignty – and unconstitutional.

The Tenth Amendment defines the total scope of federal power as being that which has been delegated by the people to the federal government, and also that which is absolutely necessary to advancing those powers specifically enumerated in the Constitution of the United States. The rest is to be handled by the state governments, or locally, by the people themselves.

Most importantly, though, we must keep in mind that the Founders envisioned a loose confederation of states – not a one-size-fits-all solution for everything that could arise. Why? The simple answer lies in the fact that they had just escaped the tyranny of a king who thought he knew best how to govern everything – including local colonies from across an ocean.

The Constitution does not include a congressional power to override state laws. It does not give the judicial branch unlimited jurisdiction over all matters. It does not provide Congress with the power to legislate over everything. This is verified by the simple fact that attempts to make these principles part of the Constitution were soundly rejected by its signers.

James Madison, during the Constitutional ratification process, drafted the “Virginia Plan” to give Congress general legislative authority and to empower the national judiciary to hear any case that might cause friction among the states, to give the congress a veto over state laws, to empower the national government to use the military against the states, and to eliminate the states’ accustomed role in selecting members of Congress. Each one of these proposals was soundly defeated. In fact, Madison made many more attempts to authorize a national veto over state laws, and these were repeatedly defeated as well.

If the Congress had been intended to carry out anything they claim would promote the “general welfare,” what would be the point of listing its specific powers in Article I, Section 8, since these would’ve already been covered?

....and more and more states are recognizing this...check this link out -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8bbrXnYJOo
or this one -
http://blog.tenthamendmentcenter.com/2010/02/kansas-senate-affirms-sovereignty-under-the-10th-amendment/
I just think there aren't any lawyers that know how to properly argue this in the Federal courts!

Now Warren..you are right, as growers we will have to follow some type of rules...we just want to know what they are!

 

[funkfingers]

Just a thought shouldn't this be regulated by the department of agriculture if any sanction of the government is going to regulate it, it should at least be people who know something about how farming works..

Not sure but I think vermonts mmj is run through the dept of agriculture.

 

[Mile Hi Dave]

Just a thought shouldn't this be regulated by the department of agriculture if any sanction of the government is going to regulate it, it should at least be people who know something about how farming works..

Not sure but I think vermonts mmj is run through the dept of agriculture.

Yeah....the USDA handles everything related to farming or farm animals. The problem is that it's a "Federal" entity and it will have to be regulated at the State level.

 

[funkfingers]

aren't there dept of ag on a state level, who regulates the farmers at the farmers market?

 

[Mile Hi Dave]

aren't there dept of ag on a state level, who regulates the farmers at the farmers market?

Ya got me there...but anything that is grown or raised for food is regulated by the USDA...I don't know if there is a State level authority.

It really makes my TJ quote quite relevant!

 

[Greenmopho]

Question:

With California having full legalization on the ballot, Washington and Seattle talking about legalizing, and Nederland, being the 3rd city in CO, recently passing decriminalization.... plausibly, how far down the road is full statewide legalization in Colorado? 2011? 2012? The new regulations are going to be almost obsolete compared to what is going on in the west in the very near future. Obviously, the medical model is faulted, to say the least, especially in Colorado with the caregiver/patient bs. Realistically, can't we get this voted in soon also in our state, how many petitions do we need?

 

[Tr33]

Actually in Nederland it's total Legalization, not decriminalization.
In Denver and Breckenridge you can still get in trouble and busted for any type possession over an ounce.
In Ned every aspect is legal from production to transportation, growing, selling, anything to do with Cannabis. Denver and Breckenridge laws , are still super Draconian, and not the same as Nederland's true Freedom.
The new Nederland law is complete and total freedom to do whatever you want to do with the herb, except for the fact that State and Federal laws still reign over our heads, our Police Chief said if grows get to big, and certain things like criminal activity and other things play out of hand they will have to go with State and Federal prosecution. Otherwise stay LowKey, don't blatently sell in the open, or puff around families etc, if you keep it at home, all will be ok.

 

[cobcoop]

Question:

With California having full legalization on the ballot, Washington and Seattle talking about legalizing, and Nederland, being the 3rd city in CO, recently passing decriminalization.... plausibly, how far down the road is full statewide legalization in Colorado? 2011? 2012? The new regulations are going to be almost obsolete compared to what is going on in the west in the very near future. Obviously, the medical model is faulted, to say the least, especially in Colorado with the caregiver/patient bs. Realistically, can't we get this voted in soon also in our state, how many petitions do we need?

Medical laws may be faulted, but when legalization happens these times will look the the days of wine and roses for small independent growers. IMO

 

[MrDank]

warren if you think this bill is going to help keep medical marijuana away from the black market, then I think you are thinking backwards. If this bill is going to force the growers who supply the dispensaries to stop going to dispensaries to sell their extra meds (which is LEGAL), then they will be forced to sell their extra meds on the black market if their patients don't buy all of it.

Then the patients will be able to buy BETTER meds for CHEAPER because these growers will drop the prices to compete with the dispensaries.

This bill seems to benefit dispensary owners who want to grow a shit ton of medicine and create a monopoly on it. Instead of doing it that way, maybe these dispensary owners should step up their game, concentrate on smaller gardens (large ops produce BEASTERS), and give the patients what the patients want...not what benefits the dispensary owners the most

Then again, this is American way...right?


...btw, if we would all just hold tight, most dispensaries and growers would be shit out of luck once this all blows over. Before we know it, it will be survival of the fittest. Only the best still standing. Hell, I already know growers who are so far in debt it's not even funny. Why? Because they tried to jump in on this Green Rush and they were far unprepared. Its sad to see somebody who has never grown a successful crop in their life go out and put up a huge grow only to have it fail. Chasing your tail is never fun in this game

 

[Greenmopho]

This bill seems to benefit dispensary owners who want to grow a shit ton of medicine and create a monopoly on it. Instead of doing it that way, maybe these dispensary owners should step up their game, concentrate on smaller gardens (large ops produce BEASTERS), and give the patients what the patients want...not what benefits the dispensary owners the most

Then again, this is American way...right?

Well, thats the problem with legalization isn't it, greedy capitalism. Its funny, coming from a hardcore draconian non-medical state, and being involved in the industry there, there was always a certain code or standard of ethics that you peers in the industry would adhere to, if people got greedy, they learned their lesson, and were cut out of the circle. There was a certain respect as to what could be bought or sold for how much. There was paranoia, but, it was shared among us. It seems that in a medical state such as Colorado, the true greedy capitalists come out of the wood work and show their true colors, you can't just cut them out of the loop. They have money, therefore they have power, and since they are not long-time underground growers/sellers, they have no code of ethics, only pure capitalism is guiding them. This is one thing I am sad about to be involved in MMJ, is the fading of the all so important *hippie* attitude. That anti-capitalist, help your neighbor, share your weed, liberal kind of attitude is unfortunately dyeing with the hippies that were making that attitude prevalent. Instead, we are replacing that attitude with greed, kids with MBAs and other bullshit degrees are taking over, only profit minded, leaving us scientific/artistic minded people to have to resort to a skewed business model....and whatever happened to helping patients?!?!?!

 

[Mile Hi Dave]

Actually in Nederland it's total Legalization, not decriminalization.
In Denver and Breckenridge you can still get in trouble and busted for any type possession over an ounce.
In Ned every aspect is legal from production to transportation, growing, selling, anything to do with Cannabis. Denver and Breckenridge laws , are still super Draconian, and not the same as Nederland's true Freedom.
The new Nederland law is complete and total freedom to do whatever you want to do with the herb, except for the fact that State and Federal laws still reign over our heads, our Police Chief said if grows get to big, and certain things like criminal activity and other things play out of hand they will have to go with State and Federal prosecution. Otherwise stay LowKey, don't blatently sell in the open, or puff around families etc, if you keep it at home, all will be ok.

Actually, you are incorrect, it was only "decriminalized", like Breck and Denver. Denver LEO has been arresting/citing folks under the "State" law. Read this story: http://www.denverpost.com/news/marijuana/ci_14837271

Then there was the question of getting legalization on the statewide ballot. This was done a few years back and it was voted down...

 

[Greenmopho]

Then there was the question of getting legalization on the statewide ballot. This was done a few years back and it was voted down...

I recall, however, many things have changed since 2006!!! Look around....not just in Colorado, but the whole country! Shit, the whole world...the Czech Republic just legalized growing and possession this year!!!!

If it passes in California, Colorado HAS to be next!

 

[Mile Hi Dave]

Either way, it will be interesting...

 

[MrDank]

I recall, however, many things have changed since 2006!!! Look around....not just in Colorado, but the whole country! Shit, the whole world...the Czech Republic just legalized growing and possession this year!!!!

If it passes in California, Colorado HAS to be next!

uh, after reading this thread, that's never gonna happen. Too many deep pockets to fill

 

[Citizen80919]

The 5 patient limit is beyond a joke IMO.

Not really, that is enough for people that want to grow their own medicine to take care of them selves. Once you get larger than that you are a commercial business. You know, like actually paying sales taxes, income taxes and things like that.

find another caregiver who:
gives them free meds every month, has a large mother selection for them to find exactly what strain fits their specific medicinal requirements, sell them additional meds at wholesale prices on top of their free meds, and produce consistent top notch medicine all at the same time.

I'm not so sure that you are the only person that does that. In fact I know of a 50kw commercial operation that does exactly that. If you have a waiting line around the block, maybe you might consider helping more people out with your super duper unique sales program. There are lots of patients that would love for you to help them with no cost meds and $200 ounces.

I would vomit all over the state of CO if I knew that it were dispensary owners who were responsible for 70% of what's on the shelves of dispensaries.

Yes of course. You are the only one that can grow meds good enough for patients to use.

I hope patients enjoy smoking pesticides, mildew, fungicides, and paying $65/eighth to do so

Well now wait a minute. Aren't you saying that the best business model is for dispensary owners to pick up everything that random caregivers drag in the back door? How can a dispensary owner really know what's in those meds. We know you are growing the cleanest meds in the world and nobody else can do that. At least requiring dispensaries to grow their own would lend some accountability for what they are selling. BTW, not every operation smears their meds in pesticides, mildew and fungicides.. but many black market growers and caregivers do. Your horse is not as high as you think.

Now we are going to be forced to go back underground.

No, you are going to be forced to make a choice. Run your business like a legitimate business or get out. Yes, you can choose to cry, whine, bitch then go sell your weed illegally. Or you can choose to adapt to the changing environment and legitimize your business if you really want to help patients.

Growing a plant that mother nature gave us is NOT manufacturing a drug. Sorry, been growing these plants for too long to be told I am manufacturing a drug

Yes it is. Your opinion does not grant permission to circumvent the law.

If this bill is going to force the growers who supply the dispensaries to stop going to dispensaries to sell their extra meds (which is LEGAL), then they will be forced to sell their extra meds on the black market if their patients don't buy all of it.

How many lawyers have told you that it's legal as a caregiver to sell to a dispensary? I have had 3 different lawyers tell me that it's not. Caregivers can sell to their designated patients. If you choose to sell to the black market, you risk a serious felony, but I suppose you are no stranger to that risk. And yes, as large commercial grows get ramped up, the prices will go down. Maybe enough so that black market and caregiver overages are not worth messing with.

Then the patients will be able to buy BETTER meds for CHEAPER because these growers will drop the prices to compete with the dispensaries.

You have it backwards. But in the end it will be a great thing for the patients. The current market is overpriced by a HUGE margin due to prohibition, and meds from a known and traceable source will be a benefit.

(large ops produce BEASTERS).....and give the patients what the patients want...not what benefits the dispensary owners the most

BEASTERS, Oh Really ? LOL Do the patient really want boutique strains with super high THC% Or is it just the rec users driving that requirement? Think about that one for a second or two. Patients actually need higher CBD levels, want to get less high from the meds so they can function, AND THEY WANT TO PAY LESS.

...btw, if we would all just hold tight, most dispensaries and growers would be shit out of luck once this all blows over. Before we know it, it will be survival of the fittest. Only the best still standing.

This is where you are wrong. Look at history. It's not the strongest or the best that survive. Those that survive are the ones that can adapt to a changing environment.

Personally, I don't endorse a good portion of HB 1284. However I do believe that the industry does need some regulation and legitimacy. This bill goes too far, but it does do something. Adapt and survive or get left in the dust.

[I've got to quit reading this board before I've had my coffee. Must be a little edgy ]

 

[funkfingers]

EAsy there, what did dank do to you to deserve such a response.. I will vouch for mr dank, his herb is probably in the top 4-5 that I've ever gotten to smoke, so it's no surprise here he's got a waiting list.. As someone in the industry, i agree regulation is needed, but not for small time ops, they're just getting buy as it is.. Let those fat cats who just recently decided they could make a living doing this pay. Not the pioneers who have suffered consequences for this plant ,that we truly believe in it's healing powers. I heartily disagree on most of your points,up until your last post..

Your coffee is making you edgy..

 

[scarred4life]

aren't you being a little hard on Mr. Dank, especially for your first post? there are plenty of other icmagers with similar views, such as myself, that you can back reference and slander with your elitist cliches, your pull-yourself-up-by-your-own-bootstraps mentality.

To illustrate the ignorance of your perspective, you suggest that "not the strongest or the best" survive, rather those who "can adapt to a changing environment." If you knew anything about Darwinism, more specifically social Darwinism, you would realize that the very definition of what is "strong" or "the best" is contextual and determined not by the tenacious adaptability that you urge Mr. Dank to adopt but by the random traits that become desirable in new environmental conditions. What Mr. Dank and a lot of others are getting at is that the new socio-legal environment created by hb1284 is one in which having access to obscene amounts of capital becomes the ONE AND ONLY desirable trait necessary for success. From a business perspective, the bill makes the potency of your product, its level of contamination, and the quality of your service irrelevant. That being said, it makes perfect sense for non-millionaires to discuss bringing their products back into the black market, where (unless you're part of a ruthless crime organization) you can't have trichome-less, moldy buds, a fuck-you attitude and still be successful just because you've got the cash...and I've got the feeling that not many Coloradans on these boards (or anywhere else) live in neighborhoods where you buy from the homies or die.

 

[Chem&M]

aren't you being a little hard on Mr. Dank, especially for your first post? there are plenty of other icmagers with similar views, such as myself, that you can back reference and slander with your elitist cliches, your pull-yourself-up-by-your-own-bootstraps mentality.

AGREED. I see no problem with letting people have their own views. That's a pretty rough first post. I hope you come to be a friendly part of our community, rather than attack people who's views are different.

As a Coloradian, I'm watching this closely. There's a ton at stake here.

 

[cobcoop]

aren't you being a little hard on Mr. Dank, especially for your first post? there are plenty of other icmagers with similar views, such as myself, that you can back reference and slander with your elitist cliches, your pull-yourself-up-by-your-own-bootstraps mentality.

To illustrate the ignorance of your perspective, you suggest that "not the strongest or the best" survive, rather those who "can adapt to a changing environment." If you knew anything about Darwinism, more specifically social Darwinism, you would realize that the very definition of what is "strong" or "the best" is contextual and determined not by the tenacious adaptability that you urge Mr. Dank to adopt but by the random traits that become desirable in new environmental conditions. What Mr. Dank and a lot of others are getting at is that the new socio-legal environment created by hb1284 is one in which having access to obscene amounts of capital becomes the ONE AND ONLY desirable trait necessary for success. From a business perspective, the bill makes the potency of your product, its level of contamination, and the quality of your service irrelevant. That being said, it makes perfect sense for non-millionaires to discuss bringing their products back into the black market, where (unless you're part of a ruthless crime organization) you can't have trichome-less, moldy buds, a fuck-you attitude and still be successful just because you've got the cash...and I've got the feeling that not many Coloradans on these boards (or anywhere else) live in neighborhoods where you buy from the homies or die.

Well said!