Coco mag deficiency or lockout? Complete Guide sticky question list filled out

[Hydro-Soil]

This is THE accurate pH chart for showing element availability

I love this place!

Thanks 10K, I hang out here to make my 'Learn something new every day' happen early.

 

[richyrich]

Two things...
If the run-off pH is at or near 5.8...it's the weakest point for mg uptake.
If the coco has a salts buildup the sodium will block the cal & mag uptake

Thanks, 10k. I have both of those charts and I too have found the black and white one to be the right one; it's been around a while. That colored one is fairly new. I noticed that calcium is least available at around 6.2ph on the chart. That coincides with my experience because I usually see the brown spots showing at that point.

My runoff when I had dropped the calmag was 5.65ph.

I had a question about the runoff ph. How do I take that into consideration along with the feed ph? I want to know what the ph is in the coco. I don't like guessing. I know what it is going in and what it is of the leachate running out, but I believe neither tell the true ph within the substrate. When I did soil I had one of those soil ph meters. I know people talk down on them but I bought a $60 unit made by control wizard out of the hydro store. I found it to be very accurate. Not like the junky $10 ones at the local nursery store. It told me what the ph was in the soil and gave me great control. Now in the coco I feel like I'm driving blind. In soil I had the control wizard meter and in hydro I have a continuous meter. I always know what the #s are and had no problems. In coco ??? and problems.

 

[richyrich]

Since, I mentioned my control wizard meter I began to wonder what would happen if I put it in the coco. What kind of reading would it give me? Coco is a substrate similar to soil right. Well, I dug it out and cleaned it. Here is what I got.


Now what can we conclude from this? The various readings I took are all around 6.2ph. From the school of thought that says coco should be 5.8 - 6.0ph, this coincides. And as I previously posted from my experience I know calcium and magnesium deficiencies pop up at 6.2ph and up. I am going to go with my meter and try to bring the ph down more according to the meter. Lets see if I can debunk the saying that many coco heads say that you should only worry about the ph going in. I have always been skeptical of that, obviously because it has not worked for me at all.

This meter will, also, allow me to see the ph swing in the coco. I can't wait to see what the range is. Will report back.

 

[BobbleheadJed]

Since, I mentioned my control wizard meter I began to wonder what would happen if I put it in the coco. What kind of reading would it give me? Coco is a substrate similar to soil right. Well, I dug it out and cleaned it. Here is what I got.


Now what can we conclude from this? The various readings I took are all around 6.2ph. From the school of thought that says coco should be 5.8 - 6.0ph, this coincides. And as I previously posted from my experience I know calcium and magnesium deficiencies pop up at 6.2ph and up. I am going to go with my meter and try to bring the ph down more according to the meter. Lets see if I can debunk the saying that many coco heads say that you should only worry about the ph going in. I have always been skeptical of that, obviously because it has not worked for me at all.

This meter will, also, allow me to see the ph swing in the coco. I can't wait to see what the range is. Will report back.

Good thinking. When I was having problems similar to yours I thought about getting one of those to get a better idea of the ph, just like you suggest. Please report back how it works. One of those could replace me having to test run-off every watering maybe.

 

[bonecarver_OG]

Two things...
If the run-off pH is at or near 5.8...it's the weakest point for mg uptake.
If the coco has a salts buildup the sodium will block the cal & mag uptake

1 - ya all gotto avoid salt build up in coco....

honestly i think from my experience coco gives better results keeping the PH as close as possible to 6 pretty much all thru the grow.. looking at those charts it seems indeed coco availability is more similar to soil than soilless mediums in general.

but i got hard water and i use nutes designed for it. only have we had problems when growing using water that has a very low EC, and lacked in cal to start with.

I am going to go with my meter and try to bring the ph down more according to the meter. Lets see if I can debunk the saying that many coco heads say that you should only worry about the ph going in. I have always been skeptical of that, obviously because it has not worked for me at all.

This meter will, also, allow me to see the ph swing in the coco. I can't wait to see what the range is. Will report back.

the NATURAL PH of coco is around 6. trying to change this will mean a heavier use of ph down - in general this is not good. if you have bad luck in coco give a try to other brands of nutes specifically designed for coco and i asure you - there will be less trouble.

sometimes i get perplexed at the amount of hustle people have growing in coco.. and usually its from people NOT using CANNA coco nutes...

i just wanna say canna nutes work well. stick to A and B + PK, use tapwater..

peace mate

 

[richyrich]

1 - ya all gotto avoid salt build up in coco....

honestly i think from my experience coco gives better results keeping the PH as close as possible to 6 pretty much all thru the grow.. looking at those charts it seems indeed coco availability is more similar to soil than soilless mediums in general.

but i got hard water and i use nutes designed for it. only have we had problems when growing using water that has a very low EC, and lacked in cal to start with.



the NATURAL PH of coco is around 6. trying to change this will mean a heavier use of ph down - in general this is not good. if you have bad luck in coco give a try to other brands of nutes specifically designed for coco and i asure you - there will be less trouble.

sometimes i get perplexed at the amount of hustle people have growing in coco.. and usually its from people NOT using CANNA coco nutes...

i just wanna say canna nutes work well. stick to A and B + PK, use tapwater..

peace mate

I allow a lot of runoff each cycle, around 25-40%. I doubt I have any salt build up. When I mix my nutes my ph is at 4.6 before I do any adjusting. I usually have to add ph up and not ph down. My only thought is that I am gonna have to feed a ph of nearly 4.8-5.0 to get my meter in the coco to read out at a ph of 5.8-6.0. It seems that way so far.

My next course of action is to go to coco specific nutes. I have been thinking about this for a while, but I do not want to be jumping to different things so quickly. The only thing I am wondering about is if I am going to have the same ph changes I see now. The vast difference of the feed ph compared to the ph in the coco. I don't see how a different nutrient is going to affect that. Any thoughts on that?

 

[D.I.trY]

hey man i had a very similar looking problem - like spiney, thin V cupped new leaf growth with pale green / yellow discoloration. Mine was caused by too much IR from the lights. Upgraded my cooling to cool bulbs to reduce IR and obsevered a remarkable difference. Well, I am pretty sure that was the cause in my case.

I was led to believe it was a ph issue but i gotta say with all my buggering about with ph it didnt help.

 

[10k]

I allow a lot of runoff each cycle, around 25-40%. I doubt I have any salt build up. When I mix my nutes my ph is at 4.6 before I do any adjusting. I usually have to add ph up and not ph down. My only thought is that I am gonna have to feed a ph of nearly 4.8-5.0 to get my meter in the coco to read out at a ph of 5.8-6.0. It seems that way so far.

I think you're missing my point altogether.
Why the hell do you want to hold that pH range of 5.8 to 6.0 ?
Holding such a narrow range is very difficult and makes no sense to restrict the diet to just what's available in that narrow range.

You'd be so much better off imho, if you'd treat this like an inert hydro medium and run what is best for Chem hydro nute packages like gh flora, which IS a pH range of 5.1 to 5.9, with a starting pH of 5.2 being optimal. Its so much better to let the plants feed from a wider range in chem hydro anyway, and you can see already that your coco is pulling up the pH.

So please don't give up on gh flora mixes such as the lucas formula until you've taken your thinking outside of the soil box and looked at this as more of a chem hydro medium running lucas. Coco is NOT a high cec medium and runs much more like an inert hydro medium when you're using multi-part chem hydro nute packages like gh flora series.

I'm not real crazy about that soil probe meter either btw. Why not try doing what we used to do with big rockwool.. stuff a hypodermic syringe (without the needle) into the medium and pull out a sample for testing a few hours after feedings, or better yet pull out a sample from one of the drainage holes several hours after (or even before) a feeding..

just my

 

[richyrich]

I think you're missing my point altogether.
Why the hell do you want to hold that pH range of 5.8 to 6.0 ?
Holding such a narrow range is very difficult and makes no sense to restrict the diet to just what's available in that narrow range.

In my experience, before being slimed in hydro with brown slime algae, I used to grow with absolutely no problems at 5.8-6.0 in hydro. I know from that experience too, that the plants do not like a ph higher than 6.2. They start to show calcium deficiency that leads right into magnesium deficiency. Yesterday, the hydro setup I am running as an experiment with UV sterilization (which has very healthy plants swinging between 5.8-6.1ph) I dropped the ph to 5.5 as a start off instead of the usual 5.8 starting point just to see what happens. The result, they are not happy at all. That is just my experience, so I have to stick to what works for me in hydro that is. I'm still open to anything in coco, so that is why I did that little switch up just to see what happens.

You'd be so much better off imho, if you'd treat this like an inert hydro medium and run what is best for Chem hydro nute packages like gh flora, which IS a pH range of 5.1 to 5.9, with a starting pH of 5.2 being optimal. Its so much better to let the plants feed from a wider range in chem hydro anyway, and you can see already that your coco is pulling up the pH.

I think what I am gonna see is this. When I feed at 5.3 i get a run off of about 5.7-5.8 and still showing some deficiencies. To the chart that is correct because it is not optimum. At this same point the control wizard meter shows the ph at 6.1-6.2. I'm guessing that when I lower the ph say to 5.0 feed, a drop of .3 to get the run off at 5.4-5.5 optimal to the chart; that at the same time the contol wizard meter reading is going to drop the same .3 to 5.8-5.9 which will be in the other regarded range. Both readings will be allowed to swing upwards in their optimal ranges. Anyway, that is what I was getting at with the whole control wizard meter thing. I am still going by the feed ph and the runoff first. But, I have found that the meter reading corresponds with the other talked about range. It seemed worth noting.

So please don't give up on gh flora mixes such as the lucas formula until you've taken your thinking outside of the soil box and looked at this as more of a chem hydro medium running lucas. Coco is NOT a high cec medium and runs much more like an inert hydro medium when you're using multi-part chem hydro nute packages like gh flora series.

I have not given up on the flora nova. I'm not treating the coco like soil either. I dislike soil.

I'm not real crazy about that soil probe meter either btw. Why not try doing what we used to do with big rockwool.. stuff a hypodermic syringe (without the needle) into the medium and pull out a sample for testing a few hours after feedings, or better yet pull out a sample from one of the drainage holes several hours after (or even before) a feeding..

I am going to take a true reading of the coco. I believe you have to take some of the coco and put into RO water and then take a reading. I have to find the instructions again.

I'm, also, going to feed one pot at 5.0 and see what the runoff comes out at and the control wizard meter too. I want to see if the two readings drop equal. I'm looking for a .3 drop and then I want to see how the girls respond

just my

.02 always welcome. Thank you.

 

[richyrich]

hey man i had a very similar looking problem - like spiney, thin V cupped new leaf growth with pale green / yellow discoloration. Mine was caused by too much IR from the lights. Upgraded my cooling to cool bulbs to reduce IR and obsevered a remarkable difference. Well, I am pretty sure that was the cause in my case.

I was led to believe it was a ph issue but i gotta say with all my buggering about with ph it didnt help.

Thanks, gonna look into the IR. Have to rule everything out.

 

[stAx]

agreed with bone-carver on that one. 6.0 with coco all the way thru is ideal for me. im glad they turned around for ya man, that high PH is a killer i can say that twice trust me.

My plan to prevent this is pick up a bottle of canna "buffer" heard it works good in helping even keel the coco's natural tendancys.

 

[richyrich]

Now when most coco grower refer to keeping the coco at near 6.0; are they talking about feed ph, runoff ph or in the substrate ph?

 

[stAx]

feed ph for me bro, thas why i was suprised when someone mentioned flora nova...that stuff and coco rocks pretty hardy. my run-off would also be 6.0 because i flush it thru until 10% runs off..by then its mostly all a fersh batch of 6.0 in the medium. to me it looks like high ph burn and some cal was locked.

i do like to foliar to fix these types of issues. i try to aim for a 5.8 ph foliar since it penetrates the cell membrane and actually lets the nutrients rush in pretty fast. Fix the mediums PH and your set to go. g/l mate!

 

[richyrich]

Two things...
If the run-off pH is at or near 5.8...it's the weakest point for mg uptake.
If the coco has a salts buildup the sodium will block the cal & mag uptake

I am about done with this coco. My pots are 3 gallons but are actually filled with about 2 gallons of coco. I am experimenting with one pot. I just ran 12 gallons of 5.2 adjusted water through this pot to try to get the ph to drop. Starting was 5.8. Want to know how much it moved? Absolutely nothing!!! Still at 5.8. Maybe this is why they say not to worry about coco runoff. I don't know what advice to take. My head is spinning and this coco is bullshit for me so far.

 

[richyrich]

feed ph for me bro, thas why i was suprised when someone mentioned flora nova...that stuff and coco rocks pretty hardy. my run-off would also be 6.0 because i flush it thru until 10% runs off..by then its mostly all a fersh batch of 6.0 in the medium. to me it looks like high ph burn and some cal was locked.

i do like to foliar to fix these types of issues. i try to aim for a 5.8 ph foliar since it penetrates the cell membrane and actually lets the nutrients rush in pretty fast. Fix the mediums PH and your set to go. g/l mate!

That is what I was doing from the onset with about a 25% runoff. Thinking the same idea, fresh nutes every feed with that much runoff. WTF?

Does your runoff ph ever change or does it always come out the same as the feed ph? How often do you water/feed? How many gallons in your pots?

 

[10k]

I am about done with this coco. My pots are 3 gallons but are actually filled with about 2 gallons of coco. I am experimenting with one pot. I just ran 12 gallons of 5.2 adjusted water through this pot to try to get the ph to drop. Starting was 5.8. Want to know how much it moved? Absolutely nothing!!! Still at 5.8. Maybe this is why they say not to worry about coco runoff. I don't know what advice to take. My head is spinning and this coco is bullshit for me so far.

just fwiw...
Flush one through with nutes adjusted to 5.2 (five point TWO) tonight and see where its at tomorrow.

I just realized you're running floranova eeeesh...I was thinking you were running a lucas mix with gh flora 3 part chems, but the same thoughts go with the nova too although imnsho, the floranova is (or can be) **damaged goods compared to the pure 3 part chem gh.
** by "damaged goods" I mean precipitated chunks in the concentrate etc.

 

[10k]

ps...and measure the runoff with your pH pen instead of that 'probe' thing please

 

[richyrich]

ps...and measure the runoff with your pH pen instead of that 'probe' thing please

Runoff always measured with my ph pen and then double checked with a ph drop tester.

Anybody ever read this on the canna info sheet. Read the Coco grow tips
http://www.bghydro.com/mmbgh/Others/Coco Product Leaflet.pdf
It says measuring drain water from the coconut substrate provides irrelevant information; steering with the use of such information can thus cause damage to the plant.

WTF? More to make my head spin.

 

[richyrich]

Here is the same damn problem exactly in this thread. Watering frequency, maybe?

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=89689&highlight=measure+coco+ph

 

[richyrich]

feed ph for me bro, thas why i was suprised when someone mentioned flora nova...that stuff and coco rocks pretty hardy. my run-off would also be 6.0 because i flush it thru until 10% runs off..by then its mostly all a fersh batch of 6.0 in the medium.

Stax, do you feed/water every day?