Coco mag deficiency or lockout? Complete Guide sticky question list filled out

[10k]

It says measuring drain water from the coconut substrate provides irrelevant information; steering with the use of such information can thus cause damage to the plant.

WTF? More to make my head spin

Me too richyrich pfeeew
Very misleading imho. There IS a pH level within the medium. It's going to effect element availability per the known pH charts... PLUS, chem nutes themselves also have precipitation situations in solution at certain pH levels which also cause availability defs/lockouts etc. Drifting above 6.4 for example really screws the pooch with hydro chem nutes... see below excerpted from flairform http://www.flairform.com/hints/ph_optimum.htm

I believe the following linkage will help solve the head spin thing, if only you'd believe it too.

The Significance of pH 5.0 to 6.0
It is over this pH range that all growth factors produce optimal growth. If the pH is allowed to rise much above 6.0, more than
half the essential nutrient species (especially calcium, sulfate, and the trace elements copper, iron, manganese, and zinc)
can precipitate, thus becoming immobile and unavailable for transport by the water flow to the roots. The precise pH at which precipitation of macronutrients starts is determined by the combined concentrations of calcium and sulfate. Except for fertilizers low in calcium and sulfate, this problem commonly occurs at pH values of around 6.5 for concentrations that would yield conductivities of 2.5 mS/cm in distilled water and pH 7.0 for 1.5 mS/cm. Hence, to avoid precipitation, higher nutrient concentrations generally must be held at lower pH values.

Flairform also recommends that coco be flushed thoroughy before use to flush out the natural sodium content with pH water until the runoff matches the input pH, and they recommend the medium be pH'd to 5.0. see this link re coco chem hydro...
http://www.flairform.com/hints/feed_frequency_volume.htm
another handy read regarding coco mediums
http://www.flairform.com/downloads/mediums_hydroponics.pdf

Flairform is a goldmine of excellent chem hydro nutrient science information btw...
http://www.flairform.com/growers_guide.htm
Also don't miss their articles reprints from maximun yield magazine
http://www.flairform.com/profile.htm

 

[bonecarver_OG]

I allow a lot of runoff each cycle, around 25-40%. I doubt I have any salt build up. When I mix my nutes my ph is at 4.6 before I do any adjusting. I usually have to add ph up and not ph down. My only thought is that I am gonna have to feed a ph of nearly 4.8-5.0 to get my meter in the coco to read out at a ph of 5.8-6.0. It seems that way so far.

My next course of action is to go to coco specific nutes. I have been thinking about this for a while, but I do not want to be jumping to different things so quickly. The only thing I am wondering about is if I am going to have the same ph changes I see now. The vast difference of the feed ph compared to the ph in the coco. I don't see how a different nutrient is going to affect that. Any thoughts on that?

nutrients are made for different conditions. canna nutes are made for hard water and to grow in coco, taking advantage of the natural coco PH and its other benefits/quirks... afterall this problem you are mentioning i never heard of it in a canna coco grow.

it seems odd you have to use that low PH in the water you use for watering to get the rigth ph in the coco.

what brand of COCO are you using? keep to the famous and biggest brands since some cheaper coco is very salty...

10K, richyrich and all - respect

one thing u guys have to bear in mind is the fact CANNA is a serious company with a lot of infrastructure and research put into their coco cultivation. they are the MOST common brand of nutrients and coco in dutch vegetable farms.

if Canna states something, its because they have been doing research for 10 + years and without a doubt, their knowledge is indisputable.

If you want to learn to grow easy in coco, using coco specific methods and nutes, canna is you number one source of information - and products. they were around many years before the other brands started manifacturing coco nutes..

the net is full of canna info bulletins etc where all the knowhow is distilled into simple methods.

this link is a treasure - http://www.canna.nl/infopapers

register and read the different pdf's etc and im sure you will have a epifany. peace all

pretty much i can say 2 things -

1 - aplying common hydroponic methods can give good results in coco but with lots of hustle and more brainwork from what i can tell
2 - using canna nutes and method is low stress and gives very good results

for me the ecuation is simple

Except for fertilizers low in calcium and sulfate, this problem commonly occurs at pH values of around 6.5 for concentrations that would yield conductivities of 2.5 mS/cm in distilled water and pH 7.0 for 1.5 mS/cm. Hence, to avoid precipitation, higher nutrient concentrations generally must be held at lower pH values.

this is why canna nutes is the way to go with coco, its made to tackle this problem. using a higher ph (i.e <>ph6) than in regular hydro, you get a good combo of; lower nute doses means less nute usage, less salt build up.

I just ran 12 gallons of 5.2 adjusted water through this pot to try to get the ph to drop. Starting was 5.8. Want to know how much it moved? Absolutely nothing!!! Still at 5.8. Maybe this is why they say not to worry about coco runoff.

trust CANNA. read what they gotto say about coco cultivation. you just proved the fact the natural PH of coco is something quite useless to fight against. better adapt to it and use it 100% to you benefit.

i hope you guys understand my point. hydroculture is something very complex, and canna just went and took the mystery out of it. the results using cannas method has NOTHING to envy chem hydro. but that with very little hustle.

have a nice sunday all

bone

 

[bonecarver_OG]

Now when most coco grower refer to keeping the coco at near 6.0; are they talking about feed ph, runoff ph or in the substrate ph?

feed PH mate

 

[stAx]

yes i feed pretty much every day RR, always every feed in coco has nutes. never a plain watering as that would throw them for a loop.

thru veg i keep at 700PPM straight from clone until ready to flip.

I veg in party cups until about 10 inches and then onto a 3gal bag.

And yes when i feed, the first run off to come out would be a lower ph than 6.0 but this does not matter to me. because i flush enough feed thru that the mediums PH is saturated with 6.0. has been my magic bullet for sometime now

 

[bonecarver_OG]

And yes when i feed, the first run off to come out would be a lower ph than 6.0 but this does not matter to me. because i flush enough feed thru that the mediums PH is saturated with 6.0. has been my magic bullet for sometime now

thats the way to go nice plant in the pic lookig happy in the cup

 

[richyrich]

Thanks for all the responses guys.

I am using canna coco. I am going to visit the store today and buy some coco nutes. Either canna or H&G. I am going to do a side by side with the flora nova and the coco nute.

I kept on reading through other threads in the coco forum and I kept on seeing a resounding theme. Nearly all coco growers feed/water everyday. The growers who were having problems (like me) were not. I was doing every other day. I believe that second day of not feed/watering was allowing a day for the ph to get to high or low. What ever was happening in the root zone (substrate). Hence, the need for daily feed/waterings. What I have read all successful coco growers doing is:
1. Feed ph at 5.8 -6.0.
2. Allow 10-25% runoff everytime.
3. No flushes.
4. Feed/water every day, if not more.
5. Do not let coco dry out.
6. They have reported high ph runoffs with no ill effect, e.g., which I had and which lead me to believe my infrequent watering may have been a problem which allowed the ph to drift too high at times. I, also, believe my girls were hungrier for more nutes adding to the problem.

I am going to keep running flora nova at 5.2ph in that one pot I flushed the crap out of and see what happens along side feeding other pots coco nutes and flora nova at 5.9ph (happy median). They all are going to be fed/watered every day till about 20% runoff.

 

[richyrich]

10k and bonecarver,

thanks for the links. excellent information.

 

[bonecarver_OG]

hand watering you can NOT aply`normal hydroponic thinking...especially IF you are using chem nutes this is gooing to lead to trouble... disolved mineral salts crystalize and burn roots and cause a lot of damage - and it takes time to flush out.

using canna nutes (wich IS NOT mineral salt based it is an other story.

the whole problem here has been the fact you have treated your nutes wrongly.

there is a great difference in nutes, and their manufacture and useage.

every nute manufacturer has obviously something in mind with their nutes. this is important to keep in mind for a succesfull grow.

peace all

 

[10k]

I am going to keep running flora nova at 5.2ph in that one pot I flushed the crap out of and see what happens along side feeding other pots coco nutes and flora nova at 5.9ph (happy median). They all are going to be fed/watered every day till about 20% runoff.

That is the only floranova fed plant you'll have good luck with imho. I'll be looking forward to seeing updates on that comparison sometime in the future.

As I've been trying to convey with much effort here, multi-part "Chem Hydro" nute packages like gh flora seires or even floranova just go haywire when the pH drifts up into and above 6.4 in any soilless "high drain" type of hydro medium. I completely believe the problem you've had comes from the input pH at 5.8 with these chems and the defs its upwards drift within the medium between feedings can cause, along with the possible salts build-up within the coco.

The infirmary is filled with troubled plants from running GH Chem Hydro nutes at too high start pH imnsho, not to mention the f'd up problems associated with GH floranovas "chunky monkey" precipitated chunks in their concentrates and the folks who are running badly damaged reservoir solutions, tox'd def'd and lockout from poor add back, topping, pH'ing and maintenance techniques for their chem hydro system reservoirs.

I stand firm in my belief that 5.8 is the absolute worst start pH for chem hydro nute packages, leading to mg defs and various other micro defs and even P defs as the pH goes upwards. That damned square bar chart is killing plants fwiw. People who are mixing and maintaining their chem hydro system reservoirs at 5.8 because of that chart need to re-think their approach if they're going to continue running the chem hydro such as the lucas mix. Again, I am speaking specifically about "chem hydro" and the need for a pH range of 5.1 to 5.9 when running these single and multi-part chem hydro nute packages.
ref : http://www.flairform.com/hints/ph_optimum.htm

I have to tip my hat to bonecarver_OG's recommendation to ditch the chem hydro nutes and run coco specific nutrient packages like canna coco instead of the chem hydro mixes in coco

hand watering you can NOT aply`normal hydroponic thinking...especially IF you are using chem nutes this is gooing to lead to trouble... disolved mineral salts crystalize and burn roots and cause a lot of damage - and it takes time to flush out.

using canna nutes (wich IS NOT mineral salt based it is an other story.

the whole problem here has been the fact you have treated your nutes wrongly.

there is a great difference in nutes, and their manufacture and useage.

every nute manufacturer has obviously something in mind with their nutes. this is important to keep in mind for a succesfull grow.

peace all

I couldn't agree more

all the best
10k

 

[richyrich]

That is the only floranova fed plant you'll have good luck with imho. I'll be looking forward to seeing updates on that comparison sometime in the future.

As I've been trying to convey with much effort here, multi-part "Chem Hydro" nute packages like gh flora seires or even floranova just go haywire when the pH drifts up into and above 6.4 in any soilless "high drain" type of hydro medium. I completely believe the problem you've had comes from the input pH at 5.8 with these chems and the defs its upwards drift within the medium between feedings can cause [That is exactly what I have concluded and I relayed that a few posts back. The swing is especially going to be greater when you do not feed/water every day, of which I was doing every other day. By dropping the feed ph there was a significant change. The runoff ph kept on bothering me though. The coco is resistant to the change as Bonecarver has advised.], along with the possible salts build-up within the coco.

The infirmary is filled with troubled plants from running GH Chem Hydro nutes at too high start pH imnsho, not to mention the f'd up problems associated with GH floranovas "chunky monkey" precipitated chunks [That is funny. I never bought the gallon containers for this reason. I always bought the quarts and they were always fresh. Way easier to give them a good shakin. I never had any chunky monkey, lol.] in their concentrates and the folks who are running badly damaged reservoir solutions, tox'd def'd and lockout from poor add back, topping, pH'ing and maintenance techniques for their chem hydro system reservoirs.

I stand firm in my belief that 5.8 is the absolute worst start pH for chem hydro nute packages, leading to mg defs and various other micro defs and even P defs as the pH goes upwards. That damned square bar chart is killing plants fwiw. People who are mixing and maintaining their chem hydro system reservoirs at 5.8 because of that chart need to re-think their approach if they're going to continue running the chem hydro such as the lucas mix. Again, I am speaking specifically about "chem hydro" and the need for a pH range of 5.1 to 5.9 when running these single and multi-part chem hydro nute packages. [I am nearly there with you on this. In my hydro setup I let my ph drift from a start of 5.5 -6.0. Though, I do notice from my experience that I get the healthiest growth when the girls get to sit at around 5.8 through most of the swing, so I sometimes like to lock the ph there.]
ref : http://www.flairform.com/hints/ph_optimum.htm

I have to tip my hat to bonecarver_OG's recommendation to ditch the chem hydro nutes and run coco specific nutrient packages like canna coco instead of the chem hydro mixes in coco [The canna coco nutes went in today and my watering frequency is changing to every day.]



I couldn't agree more

all the best
10k

Thanks for all the advice 10k.

 

[BobbleheadJed]

Thanks for all the responses guys.

I am using canna coco. I am going to visit the store today and buy some coco nutes. Either canna or H&G. I am going to do a side by side with the flora nova and the coco nute.

I kept on reading through other threads in the coco forum and I kept on seeing a resounding theme. Nearly all coco growers feed/water everyday. The growers who were having problems (like me) were not. I was doing every other day. I believe that second day of not feed/watering was allowing a day for the ph to get to high or low. What ever was happening in the root zone (substrate). Hence, the need for daily feed/waterings. What I have read all successful coco growers doing is:
1. Feed ph at 5.8 -6.0.
2. Allow 10-25% runoff everytime.
3. No flushes.
4. Feed/water every day, if not more.
5. Do not let coco dry out.
6. They have reported high ph runoffs with no ill effect, e.g., which I had and which lead me to believe my infrequent watering may have been a problem which allowed the ph to drift too high at times. I, also, believe my girls were hungrier for more nutes adding to the problem.

I am going to keep running flora nova at 5.2ph in that one pot I flushed the crap out of and see what happens along side feeding other pots coco nutes and flora nova at 5.9ph (happy median). They all are going to be fed/watered every day till about 20% runoff.

Those are pretty much my thoughts after royally screwing up one grow in coco and then having much better luck on run two. I think you are on the right path and I hope it works for you. Right now, I'm doing my third run and I'm using those ideas you list and so far so good.

My run-off was regularly 6.2-6.3 and the plants were healthy during my 2nd coco grow (in my sig). Granted, different ph pens, time since I calibrated, etc. so you can't really use that as a precise model for you. My first grow, when I started testing run-off, the ph was going above 6.4 and up. I was watering every other day. Bingo. And I was using Floranova for a while, then PBP when FN wasn't working, and I tried everything but that crop sucked. I tried lowering the ph going to 5.2 and that didn't work either.

Like you, I think I just kept on reading and finding things from great grow threads here and got better.

On #3, I would say no plain water flushes. If something is off somehow and the plants are telling you to do something, then I think giving them more water than normal with the same nute level and ph will accomplish a similar result.

This is a great thread. Thanks to all the great growers for sharing your experience so people like me can have some decent weed finally.

 

[bonecarver_OG]

[On #3, I would say no plain water flushes. If something is off somehow and the plants are telling you to do something, then I think giving them more water than normal with the same nute level and ph will accomplish a similar result.

a flush should allways be followed by a dose of light nutes - to make sure the medium is not leached out entirelly.

ofcourse it is possible to water enormous amounts of nute water - i do it allways kind off with a high run off - but it can be costy when flushing many pots etc - so in those cases i think its advicable to flush with only ph'ed water - and afterwards replace the nutes.

specially if there is a unballance etc if there is a serious problem with the flushing of the medium, since its a good idea to clean it out properly before replacing it. many lock-outs/defiancies are caused by too much of an other mineral - see stiches sticky about that in the infirmary makes sence put like this?

peace

peace

 

[BobbleheadJed]

a flush should allways be followed by a dose of light nutes - to make sure the medium is not leached out entirelly.

ofcourse it is possible to water enormous amounts of nute water - i do it allways kind off with a high run off - but it can be costy when flushing many pots etc - so in those cases i think its advicable to flush with only ph'ed water - and afterwards replace the nutes.

specially if there is a unballance etc if there is a serious problem with the flushing of the medium, since its a good idea to clean it out properly before replacing it. many lock-outs/defiancies are caused by too much of an other mineral - see stiches sticky about that in the infirmary makes sence put like this?

peace

peace

I have done that also, a plain water flush and then immediately give them nutes after. That sounds smarter than using a ton more nutes, especially if you have more than handful of plants like me. Good additional advice. I'm probably being over cautious.

 

[richyrich]

Update:

Been using the canna coco nutes for a few days now and things are going good. I believe I had a couple of problems going on at the same time. (1) The watering every other day was not cutting it; they have to be watered every day; and (2) my lights were too close.

Too much ph swing when watering every other day. I'm feeding every day at 800ppm and runoff is 900ppm with about a 20% runoff; right on target. Ph in at 6.0 and runoff 5.8.

Once I got the feed correct and most of the new growth was looking super healthy, the tops still looked like crap and canoed. The canopy is 30" away from a 1000k with mad fans everywhere and aimed at the light. Canopy temps are 77F measured with a infared temp gun. Room is 80F and humidity 55%. When I was inspecting the new growth, I noticed everywhere under the uppermost canopy that everything below was so green and healthy. The upper canopy is light stressed. Whoa... Lights were all the way up so I dropped the trays lower and gonna trim the canopy down and scrog them.

So, watering every day in coco is the ticket.

I noticed that I had a lot of dead and deficient growth after dropping the ph lower when still messing with the flora nova. The problem never fully turned with this nute by dropping the ph, only more dead leaves fell. Coco just has to be watered every day to avoid the ph swings. It's a totally different animal then my hydro setup.

I am sure the coco nutes are helping a lot too. My mothers were on a strictly flora nova diet and now that I have switched them to canna coco nutes they look amazing. Usually, I would see some deficient, dead and dropped leaves on the lowest growth and now I don't. Everything is lush.

Two things I did to rule things out. I dropped my 600w over my hydro tray with happy plants and they canoed big time when the light came within 12". They started to exhibit the same signs as my coco plants. Also, they had been perfectly happy locked near 5.9ph. I dropped the ph on them to 5.6 and later to 5.4 and they told me they did not like it. Same signs started to show. Crazy twisting leaves and taco edges. I put them back to 5.9 and they look great again.

 

[richyrich]

Beware of 1k lights running hortilux bulbs. I have been running them for years and I have always seemed to run into magnesium deficiencies or other problems even though I knew I was doing nothing wrong.

Here is what some of my plants looked like under their 600 watter.


Then I go and put a 1000k over them and in 2 days boom.


This is with a nearly perfect environment and the bulb and hood 3 feet away. I have light stressed plants before and they usually have leaf bleaching or the taco leaves. Now, this is fucked up because at this distance I did not suspect them to have any light stress. Canopy temps were 75-79F measured with a infared temp gun. Temps were in line with all advice to be found. The most messed up part is that it looks like total magnesium deficiency. Notice the thin spindly new growth, tacos leaves, upturned leaf tips. It looks like a lot of problems going off at one time. What bullshit! How far away is a 1000k really suppose to be from the canopy.

For the few people that mentioned IR and light stress, well here is the proof. MFer, i tossed the 1000s and got all 600s.



This last pic is at 4 feet away and is still showing healthy leaves. But, just a few inches above and I see the first signs of light stress. Screw 1000s.

Think I'll make another post regarding this.

 

[bonecarver_OG]

instead of one 1000W, 2 x 600W gives lower heat per light (they can be closer) and in the end quite a bit more of lumens. those 200 extra W's of power use will be worth it i think.

i got my 600's right inbetween the girls. i dont believe on top lightning only. its not natural


this is my handwatered COCO grow. i water every 2 days - but if you feel more comfortable to water every day, with your pots size do it.

 

[bonecarver_OG]

its actually more organized than it looks

 

[richyrich]

I'm glad I finally figured it all out. I had a double problem. I did have mag def with my coco plants under 1000s. Once I went to the coco nutes and the right ph things straightened out but not all the way. It was the lights!!! MF'er... and the light stress was mimicing mag deficiency. What a bitch. Simple mag def is typically the intervenal yellowing. Also, it can make the leaf edges raise (taco). I had it all and while I did have a ph problem for a while this light stress made the plants get all twisty just like a ph problem. I think more needs to be pointed out on what light stress can actually do; especially when it doesn't look like the typical light stress shown in threads on this website.

 

[HeadyPete]

Hi RR, I do a 600 watter with coco and PBP - I water every 2nd day and nutes every 2nd watering....Bonecarver is correct and 600s are the most efficient bulbs - best at converting electricity used to light energy.

Thermal heat is not the same as light energy burn. Bulbs emit infrared energy (heat) and photon energy (light) and light energy can burn the leaves by exciting the molecules in the leaves to the point where excess heat builds up internally and burns. You can't measure this with a infrared gun.

Leaves will also taco if you have fans blowing directly on the plant. The leaves curl trying to slow the accelerated transpiration that the moving air is causing through rapid evaporation. Make sure all fans blow indirect air away from plants.

 

[bonecarver_OG]

Leaves will also taco if you have fans blowing directly on the plant. The leaves curl trying to slow the accelerated transpiration that the moving air is causing through rapid evaporation. Make sure all fans blow indirect air away from plants.

thats a good point!