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CO2 supplementation while venting 24/7.

Shmavis

Being-in-the-world
Not sure how I failed to mention this in the above post: but THANKS DHF for the very interesting CO2 history lesson!
 

shredGnar

Member
Plants eat CO2 and shit Oxygen , thus how life on earth is possible , since humans eat Oxygen and shit Carbon Dioxide....symbiotic relationship huh guys ?.....now....

During the lights out process Asslover , CO2 levels AND humidity levels spike from the plants transpiring all the "excess" CO2 not metabolized during the lights on process , as well as all excess water vapor not used during nutrient uptake in the same time frame....

Maybe that`s where you came upon the idea that the plants produce CO2 during lights out , but in fact as I stated , the CO2 AND humidity spikes during lights out with sealed rooms is caused from what`s NOT used during lights on , unless scientific evidence shows otherwise that I`ve never had knowledge of....that`s why....

Most all commercial growers exhaust like a mofo during lights out in their so called sealed rooms to get rid of all excess CO2 and humidity that big operations with lg plant numbers produce....anyways....

Peace....DHF....:ying:.....

Actually tho...


"During the night, plants consume oxygen but they don't release any. All plants and animals on earth engage in a process called respiration. Respiration combines oxygen and the food created during photosynthesis to produce usable energy. One of the byproducts of respiration is carbon dioxide."http://indianapublicmedia.org/amomentofscience/sleeping-with-plants/

I'm also curious why you think "Most all commercial growers exhaust like a mofo during lights out in their so called sealed rooms to get rid of all excess CO2 and humidity..." ?

Most larger growers I know do not unseal their rooms for half the day, dehueys are used to combat humidity. My ppms rise to about 1300 from 1000. No problem there.

As Mikell was saying, using zero ventilation allows your grow to be unaffected by outdoor factors. What if it is a rainy spring, and you're trying to dry out a room by drawing in 80% rh air? This is why a fully sealed room is able to be at any parameters you want, regardless of outside conditions.

As many folks have already stated if you are running ventilation with a burner you are absolutely burning excess gas, if you are even able to maintain ppm...

If it works out cheaper to burn extra gas instead of an a/c while maintaining your ppm, then cool. But then temps/humidity will be depending on your outside conditions.

If I were you, and you must run ventilation, I would skip the co2 for now until you can get an a/c. Co2 is a waste without the right temps and vpd to match, which would be very difficult with ventilation, in my opinion
 

DunHav`nFun

Well-known member
Veteran
Actually tho...


"During the night, plants consume oxygen but they don't release any. All plants and animals on earth engage in a process called respiration. Respiration combines oxygen and the food created during photosynthesis to produce usable energy. One of the byproducts of respiration is carbon dioxide."http://indianapublicmedia.org/amomentofscience/sleeping-with-plants/

I'm also curious why you think "Most all commercial growers exhaust like a mofo during lights out in their so called sealed rooms to get rid of all excess CO2 and humidity..." ?

Most larger growers I know do not unseal their rooms for half the day, dehueys are used to combat humidity. My ppms rise to about 1300 from 1000. No problem there.

As Mikell was saying, using zero ventilation allows your grow to be unaffected by outdoor factors. What if it is a rainy spring, and you're trying to dry out a room by drawing in 80% rh air? This is why a fully sealed room is able to be at any parameters you want, regardless of outside conditions.

As many folks have already stated if you are running ventilation with a burner you are absolutely burning excess gas, if you are even able to maintain ppm...

If it works out cheaper to burn extra gas instead of an a/c while maintaining your ppm, then cool. But then temps/humidity will be depending on your outside conditions.

If I were you, and you must run ventilation, I would skip the co2 for now until you can get an a/c. Co2 is a waste without the right temps and vpd to match, which would be very difficult with ventilation, in my opinion
Sorry if I didn`t clarify Shred , but what actually occurs is their exhausts are hooked to environmental controllers with humidistats and CO2 monitors built in that open the exhausts during lights off when humidity and CO2 levels spike , and then once levels are backed down into dialed parameters , the exhausts kick off and close ....

Exhausting a full 12 hrs during lights out never hurt anyone though ,but rather kept mega dehueys from kicking on in the big warehouse runs that is , but dialage is a tradeoff with what works best in your world with what resources and budget you have available......

Thanks for the science end of your statement on respiration , I`m just a grower without all the book learning and strictly nothing but on the job experience ....

Take care....DHF...:ying:....
 

stoned-trout

if it smells like fish
Veteran
co2 sinks so in theory if exhaust isn't too powerfull it wont suck out the most co2...something to think about....yeehaw
 

Shmavis

Being-in-the-world
...As Mikell was saying, using zero ventilation allows your grow to be unaffected by outdoor factors. What if it is a rainy spring, and you're trying to dry out a room by drawing in 80% rh air? This is why a fully sealed room is able to be at any parameters you want, regardless of outside conditions.

...But then temps/humidity will be depending on your outside conditions.

Hi shredGnar,

Yeah, and if I have to run a dehumidifier in the finished part of the basement to control the humidity of the intake air, I may as well run one in the room with air. And if I go with no air, I am still not going to be able to run year round, because as you’ve pointed out I’ll be at the mercy of the outside weather, as I’ve always been. In the past I’ve always had to shut down from May to mid-to-late August.

I'm coming to the conclusion that a mini is the way to go. I’ve been looking at soundproofing options, none of which are cheap. I think if I go with a mini I can just replace the existing drywall with drywall after doing the spray foam insulation. I found some nice soundproofing tiles from which I can make a muffler/silencer for the carbon filter to scrub the air... the only potential sound issue I’d be left with then would be the dehumidifier.

The renovation will begin at the start of April. So I have some time yet to do some more research and get a sound plan of attack in place.

I cannot overemphasize how grateful I am for the advice and insights y’all have provided!



"co2 sinks so in theory if exhaust isn't too powerfull it wont suck out the most co2...something to think about....yeehaw"

I agree s-t, that’s why I was planning to put the generator low on the opposite wall from the exhaust, allowing for it to be pulled upwards and through the plants...
 

Levitationofme

Well-known member
if the co2 sinks, can the leaves use it? I have fans blowing and I have the CO2 tube ending right behind a fan. The bottom of the cabinet has some dead air, around the pots.
I do have the exhaust fan on a minimal setting.
 

Mikell

Dipshit Know-Nothing
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Oi vey.

CO2 does sink under some circumstances, not any you'll encounter in a grow room, and it will quickly disperse evenly. Think gasoline fumes.

I prefer control. Hence I would rather a minisplit with CO2.

Dialed in, to me, is an extension of that. All parameters are under control or within a range beneficial to the plant and are easy modified/adjusted (whether automatically or manually). Most of the time I hear dialed in, it merely means all the bumps and obstacles of setting up a room are dealt with.

That said.

Each situation is different. Some live in a stable enough environment they can exchange air year round, or they shorten the indoor season to the more cost effective monthes of the year (whether from excessive heating or cooling cost).


The amount of leakage from a well sealed room (exchanging air with slight negative pressure) is minimal and unlikely to have much effect on the house HVAC. Leaving the bathroom fan on all day every once in awhile would have more impact annually (an assumption, but a fairly safe one I think).
 

ceosam

Member
So I take it that no one is exhausting through a carbon filter 24/7 while supplementing CO2 and maintaining desired levels while doing so...

I do this, with a natural gas burner and a ppm controller, works well. My exhaust is only a trickle though -- to maintain slight negative pressure in the room.

Also, some minisplits have cool & heat so it wouldn't be that strange in winter
 

Levitationofme

Well-known member
yes, you guys are out of my league.
Im limited to a couple small grow box's.

Easier to maximize environment when it's a small space.
I could see my wife's face now as I am installing a new mini split into the closet.
 

Shmavis

Being-in-the-world

I’ll gladly accept your exasperation :wallbash:, in turn for the sharing of your knowledge. Hope I didn’t hurt your head too much. :eek::

The amount of leakage from a well sealed room (exchanging air with slight negative pressure) is minimal and unlikely to have much effect on the house HVAC. Leaving the bathroom fan on all day every once in awhile would have more impact annually (an assumption, but a fairly safe one I think).

I see your point and do not think there’d be an undo burden under conditions as you’ve stated; however, I was curious as to the rate of exchange that DHF recommended — twice per minute. It’s not realistic for me to intake from outside, where if doing so, the faster exchange rate would not be an issue. From inside though, that would be a good deal of constant pulling of air...

This is most likely irrelevant though, since I’m knee-deep in researching minis.

:respect:
 

Shmavis

Being-in-the-world
I do this, with a natural gas burner and a ppm controller, works well. My exhaust is only a trickle though -- to maintain slight negative pressure in the room.

Also, some minisplits have cool & heat so it wouldn't be that strange in winter

Hi ceosam, and, thanks!

Could you please talk about this a bit more?

I have some questions:

1. Is the room otherwise sealed?
2. Is your intake passive or active?
3. What is your PPM target range?



yes, you guys are out of my league.

Not really, L’ofme. It’s more along the lines of what Mikell said about each of our situations being different and us needing to adapt to their particulars.

I had always read that tanked CO2, such as you’re using, should be introduced at canopy level, because it’s heavier than air. But if you’re exhausting 24/7, I’d think you’d want to introduce at floor level at the opposite side from your filter. That’s just what I would think, don’t mean to say that it’s the best (or right) way... Good luck!
 

Mikell

Dipshit Know-Nothing
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Undirected exasperation

CO2 settling has popped up a lot lately, with someone whose name I've forgotten even expressing concern that seepage would occur through the floor.

This just ain't so.

Gases mix readily with each other, in contrast to the oil-vinegar thinking proposed frequently, especially with the heavy circulation found in all well built rooms.

When circulation is nil and CO2 released consistently (tank, volcano, microbial respiration, etc), pooling can occur, though simultaneously particle motion is distributing the gas.

https://www.quora.com/If-gravity-affects-air-molecules-why-arent-they-in-layers-according-to-their-mass


https://caves.org/pub/journal/PDF/v71/cave-71-01-100.pdf


The last one is above my pay grade but about half the information is readable to our laymans eye (easier with dictionary and wiki tabs open).

While my ego appreciates the praise, a tendency to self deprecation (Dipshit Know-Nothing) and honesty lead me to somewhat frequently stating I'm not much more than a well read newbie with a bit of commercial experience and a few years tinkering at home.

Hence a feeling of awkwardness when lumped in with someone like DHF. The guy's a bloody front line soldier who's put his time in and reaped the rewards.

I never even farkin' started growing until it was legal up here and have nothing but the utmost respect for men like DHF.

As much as I chuckle at the antics of Johnny Come-Lately's flooding the scene now that growing cannabis is almost the equivalent of tomatoes, I am one.
 

Shmavis

Being-in-the-world
While my ego appreciates the praise, a tendency to self deprecation (Dipshit Know-Nothing) and honesty...

Much respect nonetheless, because, if nothing else, self deprecation & honesty are worthy of it. (But clearly, admit it or not, your understanding is evident).

I’ll be sure to check out the provided links, when my mind is no longer under the influence of a wake ‘n’ bake session... :joint:

Thank-you.

...someone like DHF. The guy's a bloody front line soldier who's put his time in and reaped the rewards ...the utmost respect for men like DHF.

Yes, I’ve noticed and picked up on this fact. For whom I too have great respect. And likewise, anyone in the game for such a length of time. So much of this, in terms of success, is about practical experience rather than theoretical ideals.

DHF, you still around?

Does your recommended rate of exchange apply if the intake is coming from within the house, or is it strictly based on the intake being sourced from outside? If sourced from inside, do you think it would pose a problem — or hinder its efficiency —for the HVAC of the house?

Many thanks.

Happy Sunday to all!
 

ceosam

Member
Room is completely sealed (airtight) except the entry door which the small space under/around the door are where the fresh air comes in.

10x20 room, passive intake, 1000ppm on my controller that is near the entry door. Opposite end of the room is my exhaust fan+scrubber. 6" hyper fan dialled back to 10-20% fan strength.

The "trickle" exhaust keeps negative pressure so no chance of smell escaping (except when I open entry door) and it pulls fresh air in slowly. Too powerful of a fan and your burner will keep coming on and will raise the temps very quickly

Hi ceosam, and, thanks!

Could you please talk about this a bit more?

I have some questions:

1. Is the room otherwise sealed?
2. Is your intake passive or active?
3. What is your PPM target range?





Not really, L’ofme. It’s more along the lines of what Mikell said about each of our situations being different and us needing to adapt to their particulars.

I had always read that tanked CO2, such as you’re using, should be introduced at canopy level, because it’s heavier than air. But if you’re exhausting 24/7, I’d think you’d want to introduce at floor level at the opposite side from your filter. That’s just what I would think, don’t mean to say that it’s the best (or right) way... Good luck!
 

Shmavis

Being-in-the-world
Room is completely sealed (airtight) except the entry door which the small space under/around the door are where the fresh air comes in.

10x20 room, passive intake, 1000ppm on my controller that is near the entry door. Opposite end of the room is my exhaust fan+scrubber. 6" hyper fan dialled back to 10-20% fan strength.

The "trickle" exhaust keeps negative pressure so no chance of smell escaping (except when I open entry door) and it pulls fresh air in slowly. Too powerful of a fan and your burner will keep coming on and will raise the temps very quickly

OK, so it seems my thought experiment has been shown doable beyond just the conceptual level. My little test had me believing that it could be a practical option. Thanks for confirming.

I also meant to ask, sorry for not doing so before, if your lights are air-cooled? I would imagine that this is the case. I ask because I’m wondering if you’re tying your exhaust fan+scrubber into the air-cooling of the lights. I was thinking that I might be able to create a “trickle” easier if the fan is downline of the lights and scrubber. Such as: scrubber => air-cooled hoods => exhaust fan => out. This would create a negative pressure within the hoods though and if not 100% sealed could lead to smell escaping. Do you think it’s more sensible to go with positive pressure through the hoods? Scrubber => exhaust fan => air-cooled hoods => out. It seems that if I’m downline though that I may be able to achieve better heat removal from the hoods. Or are your lights independently cooled?

Thanks again.
 

Shmavis

Being-in-the-world
except for those of us where outside air during lights off is 20 degrees Fahrenheit. ;)

And If not colder still. This is why I said it’s not realistic for me to intake from outdoors.

But with that said, I did run across a thread about lung rooms. Therein DHF is a contributor. His method is becoming clearer as I read more. Most interestingly though is that the lung room of one of the other contributors is receiving its intake air from outside in the dead of winter... in the same State I’m in... boy is my head spinning.

Thanks macdiesel for chiming in!
 

ceosam

Member
I don't use air cooled lights but the general rule is to push instead of pull to avoid smell leaks.

Scrubber > Fan > Hoods > Outside
 

Shmavis

Being-in-the-world
I don't use air cooled lights but the general rule is to push instead of pull to avoid smell leaks.

Scrubber > Fan > Hoods > Outside

Thanks a lot!

As of now my plan is to forgo sealing up the room in favor of trying this in the whole room, instead of just inside a tent.

I’ve been looking at the Hype Fan and think I’m going to grab one.

So you’re able to keep temps within acceptable ranges with non air-cooled lights? I’d love to be able to do this. I already had my eye on some new Avenger adjust-a-wings, should I go sealed. Or are you running ac as well?

Again, your input is greatly appreciated!
 

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