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CMH vs LED vs HPS

Ca++

Well-known member
The blue peak strains our eyes, making LED look brighter than other lights.

The light puts out just under 1500umol and you are running it at 75%, giving 1150umol. It's a metric measurement, so your 7.5 foot is 2.3 meters. That 2.3 x 2.3 gives you 5.3 meters to spread the 1150umol over. That's 1150 / 5.3 = 220umol with a perfect energy transfer. Things are never perfect, but if we run with that..

iu

Just some rando's chart, but they think you are running about 65% of their lowest recommendation.
It's not unreasonable to say your running on low light, given your figures.
HLG say it can cover 6x6 in veg, or 1.8 x 1.8 in metric. 1500 / 3.25 = 460umol. By running at 75% over 50% more area, you have half the light they intended.


The story I'm trying to put together, involves the oxygen plants need to exhale. This oxygen is a product of photosynthesis, which is going on in the chlorophyll B that our blue LEDs target so well. Just beside the chlorophyll B peak, we have those of the carot's. These carot's take away excess oxygen, and offer shade to lower production, that would otherwise be damaging. It's only at higher light where we see chlorophyll making so much that it is actually a problem. These carot are not doing a fixed job, but are seen as programmable. Sometimes reducing photosynthesis, sometimes taking the oxygen away.

Until recently these carots were just seen as supporting photosynthesis, in a role reversal. One where they capture light on there wavelength and offer energy to the chlorophyll. This is something they can also do. We found this out first, in our continuing work to understand photosynthesis. Which could solve the energy crisis. However, it might be useful at low light to transfer more energy to the B, but on the whole, their job is limiting B.

All of this is so recent, that there is no book on it. It's just a collection of papers. What I think I'm seeing, is greenhouse light supplemented with blue, allowing 30% blue before it's damaging. While constructing the test entirely with LEDs is showing lower levels of blue to be damaging. Years of HPS growing will of shown you what just 5% blue looks like. Leaves that rip because you looked at them. It seems that hitting the chlorophyll A hard with red, doesn't lead to the same protective measures. Hence photo-bleaching with higher red, and denser leaves with higher blue.

Like quantum physics, you can just make this shit up as you go along. I wish I had time to really pick through the blue light tests that have been done lately, and see their apparatus. However I work below minimum wage, so I doubt I will get the grant needed to get these professors to talk to me.
 

Ca++

Well-known member
I don't think most are having such issues. Bluer spectrum should produce a bit smaller leaves. I don't really want big leaves I just want the canopy covered.

View attachment 18852483
Oh. What small hands you have lol

While the canopy cover is very important, leaf efficiency is also in play. If your leaf has had to employ protection measures, and even then grow smaller, what does that say about our bud potential. Is that the most effective leaf cover.


I think it's an area where we could do better.
 

Tynehead Tom

Well-known member
well..... I am not here to debate anything I am just here to share my experience with the HLG 600 Bspec.
I am also not an expert in lights BUT I've been growing indoors with HID lighting for many, many years.
So I think I can speak to what i see happening in the garden with strains I am intimately familiar with. This enables me to read those plants very well and understand what the inputs are doing .
What I can say is that the light works and does the job i need it to do.
Popped over 140 seeds since january and was very pleased at growth rates as I prepared them for the greenhouse.
My mother plants around the edge of the garden stayed healthy and didn't start stretching or putting out sall leaves.
Here is a bubba kush S1 grown from seed and spent half it's indoor life at the perimeter of the garden
2023-05-20 garden shot 7 - Copy.JPG


don't care what the papers say....... this light grows weed and this 30+year grower is satisfied with the results..... and as long as I am satisfied that something is working in my garden.... that's all that matters to me.
I would recommend this light to anyone looking to swap out a 1000w metal halide in thier veg room.
 

WingzHauser

Active member
This is a mistake on my end. It is primarily red light causing the issue. Not FR. I do think they referenced both in the course as a cause.

I have grown plants into led lights numerous times and have yet to recreate "led light bleaching". They either burn from lack of Mg Zn K B, or they don't.
20230428_205355.jpg

And I use plenty of red. Zero bleaching, only burn 6" or closer. "Light bleaching" is obviously a nutritional problem.

In fact it's only the larf that bleaches from lack of action:
20230606_203131.jpg


Led seems to create the thickest stubbiest leaves with cmh leaves slightly thicker but still not stubby and then leaves under hps are paper thin, like you said somewhat delicate but still nice and long.

Small leaves = -Zinc. Thick leaves = -
Boron.


It would be interesting to look at the leaves grown under different lights.
Different nutrient profiles with different genetics and the same lights is very revealing. Future plants bred under led will be worse than the Blue Dream era if breeders don't learn nutes. Bad nutes under hid brought us here. Bad nutes under led and no one is getting high. Cannabis Ruderalica.

20230604_191334.jpg

20230517_115741.jpg

20230604_172249.jpg


Anyone guess why this happened with the 14-20 week strains while the 10 week and 7 week strains were unaffected? Half this forum would vote 'Sativa' needs more of something, half the population would vote Sativa needs less of the same thing. Yet we're trying to figure out why 1 led grow sucks and the other doesn't. We'll blame everything except those 'things' in the soil.

I also prefer the bassier buzz of hps flowers.

I get too high off my latest batch of Led weed. My first led bud had zero effect. Same technology. Different nute profile. Hopefully my hard work pays off, and my Led specific nute line flies off the shelf. I was afraid poorly fed weed with no high had gained too much popularity.
 

Cerathule

Well-known member
Cannabis under monochromatic 450 660 and 730nm light - medium power diodes (3-5W) played around with the spec a bit - had self-build fixtures in the range of ~33W each in a small propagator, one was pure red with only 660 & 730nm 1:1, another was 1:1 450 & 660nm, but also some were "complete" spec with a mix of blue, red and farred in various ratios, also had a pure UVA rack 365 385 & 400nm, also one rack was with extended blue (450 + 400nm)
IMG_20220429_085200.jpg IMG_20220428_121629.jpg IMG_20220505_172957.jpg

The clones rooted very good under 450, 660 & 730, I didn't expect that they reacted so good to 730nm, which was quite high. Also used pure white light for control, had literally hundreds of clones and under white they did droop much more than under the monos. In veg I could really tell from heir (hyponastic) leaf movements how they liked the monochromatic light better

IMG_20220506_211455.jpg


The pure UVA could scorch leaves when freshly introduced and gave the leaves a unique sandpaper touch and looks, it also stunted said plants but then the lower shoots outgrew the topleaves still vigorously
IMG_20220505_193654.jpg


Even at high to very high PPFD there was no bleaching, we're talking +1500 PPFD at 24/0
IMG_20220522_195747.jpg


The stronger the light, the larger the leaves will get and also the number of leaflets may increase. Once Cannabis grows only "3-fingered" leaves you know it doesn't have enough light there (or is, or was, transitioning into flower at that period...)
IMG_20220528_040322.jpg

IMG_20220905_013917.jpg
IMG_20220905_004158~2.jpg


After the cut, I left some of the lower buds very close to such a fixture, and observed what it did for about a week. Still the leaves didn't bleach even though the plants were +11 weeks in and hardly growing anymore. Not much happened at all
IMG_20220929_201958.jpg

I kind of like it to get inspired by books, studies ie what the science says and then try to show if certain statements are still warranted with specifically Cannabis. Like, one time could show that you can sprout Cannabis seeds in full direct diode light - no matter the spectrum - just give it water, and adequate temperature, and they will all go open. No "darksprouter" species.
 

Cerathule

Well-known member
Hopefully my hard work pays off, and my Led specific nute line flies off the shelf. I was afraid poorly fed weed with no high had gained too much popularity.
Or maybe we'll see more extended spectrums coming incl. more farred & UV (photobiological light included) as opposed to "full spectrum" that actually not even fully covers PAR.
 

Crooked8

Well-known member
Mentor
ICMag Donor
Veteran
I have grown plants into led lights numerous times and have yet to recreate "led light bleaching". They either burn from lack of Mg Zn K B, or they don't.
View attachment 18853281
And I use plenty of red. Zero bleaching, only burn 6" or closer. "Light bleaching" is obviously a nutritional problem.

In fact it's only the larf that bleaches from lack of action:
View attachment 18853257



Small leaves = -Zinc. Thick leaves = -
Boron.



Different nutrient profiles with different genetics and the same lights is very revealing. Future plants bred under led will be worse than the Blue Dream era if breeders don't learn nutes. Bad nutes under hid brought us here. Bad nutes under led and no one is getting high. Cannabis Ruderalica.

View attachment 18853304
View attachment 18853290
View attachment 18853305

Anyone guess why this happened with the 14-20 week strains while the 10 week and 7 week strains were unaffected? Half this forum would vote 'Sativa' needs more of something, half the population would vote Sativa needs less of the same thing. Yet we're trying to figure out why 1 led grow sucks and the other doesn't. We'll blame everything except those 'things' in the soil.



I get too high off my latest batch of Led weed. My first led bud had zero effect. Same technology. Different nute profile. Hopefully my hard work pays off, and my Led specific nute line flies off the shelf. I was afraid poorly fed weed with no high had gained too much popularity.
What ppfd was this experiment done at? I dont think its simply red light, it has to be intense enough. But its most certainly not nutrition. Plants with photobleaching can be in top health and still demonstrate this. Ive had it happen a lot under HPS. I believe the USU research team conducted the experiment at 1000ppfd, same feed and only the plants under primarily red light had the tips bleach of their terminals. All plants in great health. Tissue tests to prove it. Their test was very controlled and the results were very obvious.
 

hillbil

Active member
Those blue emitters put out a lot of energy, was said to be the cause of white “hash tips”, anything but “hash” with little weight or potency. Had a few under my early Blurple LEDs over 10 years ago.
 

Cerathule

Well-known member
Those blue emitters put out a lot of energy, was said to be the cause of white “hash tips”, anything but “hash” with little weight or potency. Had a few under my early Blurple LEDs over 10 years ago
Hash tips can have way higher potency, I remember a site where they did do a labtest on those.
If Cannabinoids serve as sunscreen pigments it would stand to reason these could be increased in response to highlight. It's actually what many studies have found as well with the amount of total net Cannabinoid in response to increase the PPFD/DLI
 

Tynehead Tom

Well-known member
all the plants in this greenhouse, staging for selection, culling and transplanting of the keepers..... were grown under the HLG 600B spec starting in january with multiple seed pops between Christmas day and April 20th.
In total, 140 plants cycled under that light and moved outside to the greenhouse starting june 4rth and a few still to go.
2023-06-13 Long Valley Royal pic 4 - Copy.JPG


2023-06-13 OGKB 2.0 Mum - Copy.JPG

2023-06-13 Scout Breath and Stat Line - Copy.JPG

2023-06-13 2017 Shiskaberry B-1 - Copy.JPG


that's just a small glimpse..... but the light performs and has enabled me to shelf my 1000W metal halide.
 

Ca++

Well-known member
I can't imagine how bad you would have to fuck up feeding to get no high.
In a single run, you may have to outright kill them.

He's saying if you breed in an odd environment, you are selecting odd plants.
Consider people selecting the best plants, for their 20% RH grow. These plants have no reason to be the best in your grow.
To emulate a breeders stock, who uses high Ca, we must also use high Ca. Though we never actually see the grows our seeds come from, so hope selections are made in text book grows.
 

Ca++

Well-known member
Perhaps they're a British bird. They are never drunk. Not even when they have vomited out the car window, without opening it.
 

Ca++

Well-known member
I have spent a night pulling apart blue light papers. All are using the spike, so this is just about LEDs.
At low light, yield drops until about 12% of the light is blue, then there is no further decrease
At 500ppfd yield kept dropping as they went from the 5% of HPS to 20% blue, which was the limit of testing. There was a steady decrease in yield, where every 1% more blue, lost about 0.75% of the yield.
Right at the extreme of high blue, it is weed killer. They are using high blue light on the back of combines, to kill the seeds coming out. This isn't cannabis specific, but general seeds such as water hemp.

There is also confirmation on leaf size reduction and efficiency. As you would expect, to explain the lower yield.

Less bud means less everything. As gram for gram, the interesting compounds people want light to effect, were largely unaffected.

Gram per watt saw the greatest gain in reduced blue. Keeping at the same ppfd, means moving light from blue to red, which is more efficient to make, while yields went up anyway. These are real numbers, not just a few percent different.

I'm saying this is only for LED blue, as that is what was used.


I can provide links to any points here, as it's fresh in my history.
 

Hammerhead

Disabled Farmer
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Grandmaster LEDs look really nice. Thier Borg model has 50 Preset Spectrums and can adapt to over 500 Spectrums with the Grand Master LEDs Controller..Its a beast at 1500 watts ...NOT CHEAP $2700!!..
 
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