CMH vs LED vs HPS

[greyfader]

if you couldn't then that must mean no one can haha
Please don't compare what u did to what I did, I used xxxxl reflectors with philips 400v 1000w bulbs and yes they were indeed 30-40 cm from the plants, I had a 2.5hp ac in that room, it was constantly in the 28-30c range
You have reg reflectors, they throw a lot of heat downward, mine was more spreading the light.

you claim sun system xxxl reflectors with de bulbs and they never made that fixture for de bulbs.

also, even with a mogul socket 1k hps you would have been over 2000 umols ppfd at 30 cm.

when i ran vertical 1k mogul socket bulbs i got 1500 umols at 16" and that was too close.

 

[snakedope]

No, I claimed I used xxxxl de reflectors, not sun systems ...
And what does it matter how much ppfd I was ? You think plants care how much light they get ? The more the better
Heat is the enemy, but I had a nice budget to spend on cooling

Edit - just for scale, my reflectors were 110 x 100 cm
Big monsters

 

[Ca++]

I'm in dirt right now, with both Canna and Plagron to hand. Neither contain Ca. Other feeds will follow a similar route, I'm sure. For growers switching to LED, and finding they need more feed, they can't accomplish that completely with more feed from these brands. There is just no Ca in it, so using more, actually makes Ca less available.

I bring this to the table, as it will be the reason some growers higher feed demands, had to be met with a Ca product, not just their base feed. Many times we miss important things like this, when just presented with the treatment, not the actual conditions.

I rapidly get Ca signs with these, if I use smaller pots and hard dry backs (see: I'm too lazy to pot up)

 

[greyfader]

No, I claimed I used xxxxl de reflectors, not sun systems ...
And what does it matter how much ppfd I was ? You think plants care how much light they get ? The more the better
Heat is the enemy, but I had a nice budget to spend on cooling

Edit - just for scale, my reflectors were 110 x 100 cm
Big monsters

ok, so you used a different reflector.

you still didn't run it at 30-40 cm.

"you think plants care how much light they get?" yes, i do! i have, recently, about 6 months ago, intentionally ran 2000+ umols ppfd just to see the reaction. i own a par meter and use it daily. it pegs at 2000 umols because the manufacturer knows that this is equal to noon daylight at the equator.

12 hours of 2000 umols is 86.4 moles, which is more than any place on the planet ever gets.

1500 umols for 12 hours is 64.8 moles, which is still more than most places on Earth ever get in a day.

after about 3 days the leaves took on a bronze color i've never seen before on a cannabis plant. and they basically stopped growing. i backed the light off to about 1500 umols and they greened up and began growing again.

the rate of photosynthesis increases linearly with increasing light up to 1500 umols, at which point it plateaus until it reaches 2000 umols.

after 2000 umols the rate of photosynthesis drops off sharply to almost nothing because the plant goes into photoinhibition.

 

[greyfader]

I'm in dirt right now, with both Canna and Plagron to hand. Neither contain Ca. Other feeds will follow a similar route, I'm sure. For growers switching to LED, and finding they need more feed, they can't accomplish that completely with more feed from these brands. There is just no Ca in it, so using more, actually makes Ca less available.

I bring this to the table, as it will be the reason some growers higher feed demands, had to be met with a Ca product, not just their base feed. Many times we miss important things like this, when just presented with the treatment, not the actual conditions.

I rapidly get Ca signs with these, if I use smaller pots and hard dry backs (see: I'm too lazy to pot up)

yes, this is the difference between soil and hydro. i use yara liva calcinit with the jack's 5-12-26 base.

the base product has no calcium in it at all and about 1/3 of the needed nitrogen so the two-part completes the formula and allows adjustability.

 

[snakedope]

I didn't see any of these signs you speak of, mine was just monsters, growing wild into trees, sure only 1 or 2 plants was right beneath it, but still everything looked good.
I think maybe you had a problem with heat.

 

[bigtacofarmer]

Everything I see in LEDs is awesome to be honest they really grow (kinda weird mutant like) big plants and buds
It's just a shame that the outcome of using them is mostly hairy calcium stalks (which for me is the explanation as to why cal mag appeard in the indoor scene at the time LEDs was being popularized)
I mean I never heard about it before and never needed it..
Back to the stalks, I'm left to wonder why a lot of people find that their plants are calcium hogs... The answer is in the stalks.

In a town that is completely flooded in weed and most people are paying 50 to 80 and ounce. I'm still getting 120 for my LED grown.

What am I doing wrong? Maybe its the soil or worms?

 

[greyfader]

I didn't see any of these signs you speak of, mine was just monsters, growing wild into trees, sure only 1 or 2 plants was right beneath it, but still everything looked good.
I think maybe you had a problem with heat.

you think wrong, grasshopper! i also own a digital handheld laser thermometer and i use it to make sure that my leaf temps are slightly below room temps.

you could not possibly have applied the light in the fashion you state without damaging the plant.

 

[snakedope]

Ok if you say so

 

[Corpselover Fat]

The Lumatek LED I have does not make this kind of heat, it's lower than 2/3 of HPS at 100%

Well the Lumatek zeus pro 600w produces 1700umol which is the same as a 1000w single ended hps. I don't think they have more efficient fixtures.

 

[Ca++]

Physics tells us 1w of power can make 350lm with a perfect 100% conversion.

The 600/1000 is 150lm/w and so is about 40% efficient.

We are using 220lm/w leds from Samsung mostly. This is about 66% efficient.

If we have a 1000w HPS there is 600w of heat coming off it.
If we have a 1000w LED there is 330w of heat coming off it.

For every watt, the LED makes just over 50% more light. Hence the 600W LED is a good contender for a 1000w HID

There is a lot of dated info regarding LED efficiency, revolving around the idea it's 40% efficient. Most COBs are. An amazon UFO is often 80lm/w or in the 20% efficient region. Annihilated by an HID. Here though, we like to get the very best LEDs that are not really found in consumer products that are price sensitive. So he are getting about half the heat from our best LEDs as we would HIDs of the same power consumption. This is not what we actually run though. We run LEDs about two thirds the size. So, for a similar ppfd, the LED is producing maybe 35% of the heat an HID would.


There is a spanner in the works though. I'm looking at heat at source. The light however, hits the plant, and to a great degree, makes heat. So even the 100% efficient 350lm/w cold LED, still warms the room.
I can't put numbers on this, but it's been suggested, that moving from the 1000W HID to the 600W LED, simply saves 400w of heat being made. The suggestion there, is that every watt turned to light, becomes a watt of heat again. This, I'm unsure of. It can't be 100% true, but how close, I can't begin to measure (with my current knowledge)


Obviously the type of heat created is very different. With the HID producing an unforgettable amount of radiant heat. While the LED does it's best to loose it's heat by warming the air around it (conduction and convection)

 

[acespicoli]

what a shit show nice thread tho good info reminds me of pepsi vs coke taste tests
I always liked flouros and MH HPS
Flouros stack nodes like nobodies business and run super cool with bulbs directly on leaves
MH some of the darkest green leathery leaves in veg
HPS run hot but can you find a better bulb?

LED cobs and Mars been great cheap to run and veg good
Do they produce the healthiest plants pollen and good seed?

 

[Vegg69guerilla]

hps forever...led are not cutting it imo...85 day flower buds look like 40 days under hps...nope,there absolute pants and the radiant heat and emitting light spectrum from hps opens up the cannaboid in flowers through heat exchange...led in my opinion are not worth the paper they're written on..and there is some kind of chemical exchange that's not happening under led lights hence ppl report widely that bud grown under led doesn't have the same level of power..I've seen it reported widely.

 

[kro-magnon]

Well the Lumatek zeus pro 600w produces 1700umol which is the same as a 1000w single ended hps. I don't think they have more efficient fixtures.

I didn't say it's more efficient I said it does not make so much heat, mine is the Zeus 465w and it makes less heat than a 250w HPS, I have grown in the same space with different lights and It's clear the LED makes a lot less heat than a HPS, so much less I had trouble to keep temps high enough in the winter.

 

[Corpselover Fat]

I didn't say it's more efficient I said it does not make so much heat, mine is the Zeus 465w and it makes less heat than a 250w HPS, I have grown in the same space with different lights and It's clear the LED makes a lot less heat than a HPS, so much less I had trouble to keep temps high enough in the winter.

100w LED makes exactly the same ammount of heat as 100w of any HID. No way around it. The HID just produces more of radiative heat, which is harder to remove from the grow area.

 

[Corpselover Fat]

The suggestion there, is that every watt turned to light, becomes a watt of heat again.

Energy can't disappear so  all the light which isn't used for photosynthesis gets converted to heat. About a percent of the light might go to photosynthesis and turn into plant matter. The rest must turn to heat.

 

[Crooked8]

Physics tells us 1w of power can make 350lm with a perfect 100% conversion.

The 600/1000 is 150lm/w and so is about 40% efficient.

We are using 220lm/w leds from Samsung mostly. This is about 66% efficient.

If we have a 1000w HPS there is 600w of heat coming off it.
If we have a 1000w LED there is 330w of heat coming off it.

For every watt, the LED makes just over 50% more light. Hence the 600W LED is a good contender for a 1000w HID

There is a lot of dated info regarding LED efficiency, revolving around the idea it's 40% efficient. Most COBs are. An amazon UFO is often 80lm/w or in the 20% efficient region. Annihilated by an HID. Here though, we like to get the very best LEDs that are not really found in consumer products that are price sensitive. So he are getting about half the heat from our best LEDs as we would HIDs of the same power consumption. This is not what we actually run though. We run LEDs about two thirds the size. So, for a similar ppfd, the LED is producing maybe 35% of the heat an HID would.


There is a spanner in the works though. I'm looking at heat at source. The light however, hits the plant, and to a great degree, makes heat. So even the 100% efficient 350lm/w cold LED, still warms the room.
I can't put numbers on this, but it's been suggested, that moving from the 1000W HID to the 600W LED, simply saves 400w of heat being made. The suggestion there, is that every watt turned to light, becomes a watt of heat again. This, I'm unsure of. It can't be 100% true, but how close, I can't begin to measure (with my current knowledge)


Obviously the type of heat created is very different. With the HID producing an unforgettable amount of radiant heat. While the LED does it's best to loose it's heat by warming the air around it (conduction and convection)

Do you mind linking us to where you got those numbers regarding the heat produced by hps vs led? My understanding was that every watt creates an equal amount of heat, this amont precisely - 3.41 BTU/h. How are two 1000w fixtures producing unequal amounts of heat while using the same amount of energy, that doesnt make sense scientifically. If this were true, people would all flock to LED even more simply for needing less than 50% the hvac to run them.

 

[Mars Hydro Led]

Some programmable spectrums would be good. Maybe a program or two to replicate an autumn fade over the last few weeks of flowering by changing red/yellow/blue/green ratios etc.

Ganj on

that sounds really cool.

 

[Cerathule]

Energy can't disappear

lol didn't *you* tell me it can (cosmic redshift) when I made the same sentence in a thread on lighting haha

So ? That means the closer a plant gets to this point it will grow more intense, and demend more,

Maybe, maybe not, it's dependant on so many things...

Mine was 30-40 cm, with big ass wide reflectors you can get closer, I don't think I was able to do the same with normal hoods like Gary showed.

I did use a 600W SE HPS in an big spreader like 80cm diameter and the sativa tops at distance ~50cm directly to the bulb did all start to foxtail. A broad leafed indica in the center of the tent did have problems at +60cm with too much light. Even with a diffusor under the bulb still the middle of the tent saw much higher flux than the edges, and the corners were underlit. Only a fourth with lanky growth.

Also don't forget we measure from the reflectors start, not the bulb,

The light that is coming directly from the bulb is way stronger, as it is ~~10-15cm "more close" and hasn't received a reflection loss.

Physics tells us 1w of power can make 350lm with a perfect 100% conversion.

It's wavelength dependant. It seems like you just took some of the latest whitelight chips and calculated up from their efficiency. But these use a blue pump which doesn't register as strongly in the lux curvature as say, a green photon. Using 555nm we get 683lm/W but this is rather a hypothetical number. There will always be some losses on commercial products.

 

[Mars Hydro Led]

You need to consult with growers before releasing your products. It’s a wasted opportunity otherwise creating subpar equipment that will not be completely automated

Yes, before we release a new light, we will get feedback from growers do some market investigations. to meet the growers' demand is the top priority. thanks for your suggestion.